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S03.E03: Sunk Costs 2017.04.24

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immy decides to represent a new client to Kim's dismay; Mike meets a formidable ally who gives a tempting offer.

So that happened. 

Is there any legal defense based on being "played like a fiddle?"

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Finally, a really good episode of the show.  Very much enjoyed Mike's meeting with Gus and Jimmy telling Chuck exactly how he would end up.  Chuck proves himself an even bigger scumbag by firing Ernesto, on top of making more people jump through hoops for him.  After seeing her on Vice Principals, I was thrilled when Kimberly Herbert Gregory turned up as the out-of-town prosecutor.  Kind of like how she was the out-of-town principal on Vince Principals.

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6 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Is there any legal defense based on being "played like a fiddle?"

If Jimmy could make the jury believe that Chuck is delusional and set the whole thing up to "get" Jimmy, they might find he lacked criminal intent.

Edited by ItCouldBeWorse.
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But then Jimmy would have to talk about the precipitating incident and he did purposely screw with Chuck's work product/files.

27 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Entrapment.  If Jimmy could make the jury believe that Chuck is delusional and set the whole thing up to "get" Jimmy, they might find he lacked criminal intent.

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I'm thinking that the prosecutors are trading favors on Chuck...she makes a special visit to his house to take his report, and is aware that her call phone and anything with a battery must be left in the mailbox...and sits in the dark taking Chuck's statement.  Jimmy should go for broke and go to trial and bring Chuck's mental health into question.  Make it clear in discovery that he intends to do as much damage as he can...let Howard and HHM figure that in their calculations. And Chuck tossing Ernesto under the bus...well, Ernesto might make a great witness...he can describe Chuck's condition, and the tin foil on the walls and ceilings. Chuck's little speech to Jimmy was nauseating, but it looks like finally, Jimmy is done. Chuck looked a little shocked that Jimmy wasn't buying his act, and his prediction that Chuck would die alone seemed to shake him.

And Gus and Mike have their meeting. Of course Gus is all knowing, but damn, Mike holds his own. And I loved the elaborate takedown of Tio's truck.

This is episode truly rocked it. 

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Chuck loves the con every bit as much as Jimmy, he just needs to lie to himself about the upstanding nature of his cons. He's just a towering hypocrite.

I still think Jimmy's legal strategy, after telling Chuck that the disbarment  via plea bargain can get shoved where the sun doesn't shine, will be to enter into a game of chicken with Howard/HHM, with a credible legal threat to enter into evidence at trial the fact that HHM harmed clients by allowing a partner with a severe mental illness to work with critical documents ina a largely unsecured house without electricity. If HHM is threatened with significant damage, Howard will be forced to betray Chuck, with regard to testimony at Jimmy's trial. This is going to get really, really, ugly, and that'll be very entertaining.

Really love the way they established the business relationship between Mike and Gus, including the flash forward cold open where the shoe string has rotted away with Gus' trucks now running the route.  I still believe that Hector will end up with brain damage at the hand of Gus

12 minutes ago, Maire said:

But then Jimmy would have to talk about the precipitating incident and he did purposely screw with Chuck's work product/files.

That also opens HHM to potential damage, for letting a mentally ill partner handle documents in this fashion

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On 4/25/2017 at 0:48 AM, Maire said:

But then Jimmy would have to talk about the precipitating incident and he did purposely screw with Chuck's work product/files.

On 4/25/2017 at 0:19 AM, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Entrapment.  If Jimmy could make the jury believe that Chuck is delusional and set the whole thing up to "get" Jimmy, they might find he lacked criminal inten

Actually, since Jimmy is the defendant, he cannot be compelled to testify.  Therefore, if he represents himself (I think Kim was talking about representing him, if necessary, in front of the ethics board), and does it carefully, he would have the opportunity to cross-examine Chuck without being able to be cross-examined himself.  If Chuck tries to ask Jimmy a question, Jimmy will object and the judge will remind Chuck that Jimmy is functioning as a defense attorney, not as the defendant.  In the jury instructions, the judge will remind the jury of what they were told during jury selection, i.e. that the burden is on the prosecution to prove Jimmy's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, and that they (the jury) cannot draw any adverse conclusion from him not testifying.

Jimmy is clever enough to both make it apparent that Chuck is mentally ill, and to elicit from him that he did, indeed plan to set Jimmy up. The latter will be very simple to show since Chuck would never lie under oath.

Edited by ItCouldBeWorse.
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Man, I honestly don't know if Chuck is that full of shit or if he really thinks he is right that this will all benefit Jimmy in the long run and it will be a good thing for him.  At least own your, petty vindictive behavior, asshole!  Of course, Jimmy basically saying "Oh, by the way, you are dead to me now, so have fun dying alone!" was much more creative then what I was thinking.  I don't care how wrong it is: I'm loving Jimmy suck sinking his teeth into Chuck and not holding back.  Not sure how Jimmy will get out of this (or even if he will), but I really hope Chuck's house of cards (or foil) falls down soon.  Especially since he got poor Ernesto fired too!

Kimberly Hebert Gregory is playing the prosecutor?!  Awesome, just saw her on Brooklyn Nine Nine.  After Vice Principals, I'm very happy that the industry (or at least shows I watch) seem to be realizing the awesomeness that is Kimberly Hebert Gregory!

I can understand why Jimmy wants to represent himself and not have Kim risk herself to try and help, but Kim still throwing in with him is sweet, even if I still worry she will get caught in the crossfire.  But if anyone can figure a way to get Jimmy out of serving jail time, it would be her.

Glad to see the real Gus Fring, again!  Really looking forward to seeing more of him and Mike, and how Mike ends up being so deep in the organization by the time Breaking Bad came along.  Thought this episode had a better balance of Mike prepping in stuff, where they took their time, but it didn't feel like it was dragging on.

Hey, the doctor that Mike visited for the drugs was the same one from Breaking Bad's "Crawl Space" episode!  I love those little moments!

Still missing Nacho though.  I hope he will factor in more soon, and isn't getting pushed aside due to the whole Hector/Gus war.

Favorite episode of the season so far.

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14 minutes ago, Dianaofthehunt said:

. . .The meth in the hanging sneakers: that's Mike through and through. And thank you, writers, for making him do several tries to hang them up, as ALL of us would have to do. . . . 

Recalling that Bryan Cranston landed the pizza on the roof in one take, part of me wanted to see the sneakers loop the power line in one, but, yeah, even getting them in 3 tries is pretty darn good. I look forward to reading comments from any podcast listeners as to whether or not Jonathan Banks really got them up there at all.

 

After these last 2 episodes, I can imagine Jimmy changing his name because he no longer accepts Chuck as his brother. But I doubt that will be the case.

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So much depth in Jonathan Banks' acting...when he answered the cell phone in the middle of the road there were about 30 shades of meaning packed into 'Yeah?' 

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I don't know what Jimmy would have to do to make Chuck think he had "made something of himself".  He was a con-man and became a lawyer because of you!  If that's not a turn-around, I don't know what is. 

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I'm hoping that Jimmy and Kim won't have to worry about a defense strategy.  Chuck didn't seem all that sure of himself when he said he'd have no problem testifying.  He can control the environment at HHM but he can't control a courtroom.  

Loved the trap Mike set for Hector's men -- such planning, especially the gunfire.  Tossing the shoes -- I thought it would have been easier to hold one shoe but Mike got it done.   Made me wonder how/why the shoes were there in the first place.  

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39 minutes ago, Bannon said:

with a credible legal threat to enter into evidence at trial the fact that HHM harmed clients by allowing a partner with a severe mental illness to work with critical documents ina a largely unsecured house without electricity. If HHM is threatened with significant damage, Howard will be forced to betray Chuck, with regard to testimony at Jimmy's trial. This is going to get really, really, ugly, and that'll be very entertaining.

We'll see where they go but I don't see how it'd be a credible legal threat.  First, as far as we know, Chuck has not been officially diagnosed with a mental illness and even if he had been, I'm not sure how it'd be relevant at trial.  But even if he had been diagnosed with a mental illness and even if he were able to bring this up in court, as far as we know, there's zero evidence that his condition has affected the quality of the work he chooses to do.  Mental illness does not automatically make a person incompetent or incapable at their jobs.

The only way I could see it having negative repercussions for HHM is because Jimmy would know which buttons to push on the stand and Chuck could have a meltdown.

It was nice to see the doctor again.  And while I do like the longer scenes, the show had a good balance of switching back and forth.

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My heart was filled with joy over the scene of Gus, Mike, Victor and Tyrus meeting in that big, spacious, beautiful desert.   I felt like I was absolutely watching a scene from Breaking Bad (which is fine with me -- I have no problem of any sort with the BB connections being explored on this show).  It could have gone so wrong and backfired on Mike since he was outnumbered, and I felt the tension even though I know where he and Gus will end up.   I don't know why I was surprised that Gus already knew everything about Mike before meeting him -- I expected him to know everything and yet it was still alarming.

I was even happy to see the doctor!  Now, if I had seen the doctor in some other unrelated project, I don't know if I would have recognized him out of context right away.  I would have looked at him and puzzled over where I knew him from for a while.  But because he was in BCS, I knew right away (even before he met with Mike) that he was the doctor who saved Gus in later years.

Was that Nacho I saw in the clip from next week?  Maybe it's time for him to finally show up again.

Chuck is so ridiculous.   Poor Ernesto -- he seems like such a sweet kid.

Edited by TVFan17. Reason: Fixed a sentence that didn't make sense
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I loved seeing Mike use his Mr. (Dave) Clark alias at the doctor's office. He used the alias of Postal Inspector Dave Clark ("like the Dave Clark 5") on the phone in BB, when he wanted to find out where Fring's laptop with the surveillance video was being kept.  

7 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I don't know what Jimmy would have to do to make Chuck think he had "made something of himself".  He was a con-man and became a lawyer because of you!  If that's not a turn-around, I don't know what is. 

Jimmy is still a con man, but now he is a con man with a license to practice law.  He often has good intentions  (at this point anyway) but he has been conning people both within and outside his role as a lawyer since he paseed the bar.

Chuck's motives are not really pure, but it is hard to argue that he is "wrong" about Jimmy.  "Gene" might wish that Chuck had been successful in convincing/coercing Jimmy to give up the law.

7 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Recalling that Bryan Cranston landed the pizza on the roof in one take, part of me wanted to see the sneakers loop the power line in one, but, yeah, even getting them in 3 tries is pretty darn good. I look forward to reading comments from any podcast listeners as to whether or not Jonathan Banks really got them up there at all.

 

After these last 2 episodes, I can imagine Jimmy changing his name because he no longer accepts Chuck as his brother. But I doubt that will be the case.

I was thinking there is no way they would let Mike get the sneakers on the wire on the first try, because of the roof pizza scene.

Edited by Bryce Lynch.
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So deeply satisfying.

The thing that I examined closely, and marvelled at, was Chuck;s choice to come out to speak with Jimmy in the DIRECT sun, with zero extraneous coverage.  He easily could have gone to Jimmy's left and turned his body with his back to the sun, and not his face getting the maximum available solar rays.  I also could not detect even the slightest twitch in his entire body.  He was 100% normal.  This is the first, and only, time this was true in 23 eps.  Not even sunglasses.  

I dearly loved the time machine open with the sneakers.  I spent so much time pondering the significance.  The payoff was beyond tremendous.  Then, Hector's truck stops...Why won't MIke shoot?  What the heck?  Kill them both!  Mike, you do NOT want to disappoint Gus on your first job!...Then...sugar from the sky and a visit to the border checkpoint (so brillllliantly introduced last season) and a K-9.  Just beautiful.  Only BrBa and this show.

Question for y'all:  Was Chuck feigning potential personal difficulty in appearing at trial, or was it part of the con to get the ADA to go along with his scheme?  Just how "cured" is he?  I really don't know, which is a wonderful thing.  What say y'all? 

Despite not being able to figure this out, may I keep my PTV car?  I'll share my trans fats, I promise.  :)

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15 minutes ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

 

Question for y'all:  Was Chuck feigning potential personal difficulty in appearing at trial, or was it part of the con to get the ADA to go along with his scheme?  Just how "cured" is he?  I really don't know, which is a wonderful thing.  What say y'all? 

 

It seems like Chuck's illness rears its ugly head when he is in stressful situations or a situation is not going his way. The two most extreme examples being when the Mesa Verde address mistake was revealed and then again at the copy shop. When situations are going well it seems to bother him less. I don't believe he is acting, I think it's just a case of stress magnifying the mental disorder. 

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I think Chuck just needs to put the world back in balance again.  He on top, with everything.  Jimmy on the bottom, with nothing.  Unable to survive or fend for himself.  Dependent on Chucks charity, and someone Chuck can always feel superior to.  Chuck is such a damn prick on so many levels, and it made my cold heart smile when Jimmy told Chuck exactly how things were going to end.  The look in Chucks eyes was magnificent, because he was so sure his little "talk" was going to convince Jimmy to feel bad and play along.

I'm not sure about an entrapment defense, because I think that only applies to the government.

Ultimately, I think all anyone needs to do is put Jimmy on the stand, put Chuck on the stand, and let the chips fall where they may.

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3 hours ago, Bannon said:

Chuck loves the con every bit as much as Jimmy, he just needs to lie to himself about the upstanding nature of his cons. He's just a towering hypocrite.

I still think Jimmy's legal strategy, after telling Chuck that the disbarment  via plea bargain can get shoved where the sun doesn't shine, will be to enter into a game of chicken with Howard/HHM, with a credible legal threat to enter into evidence at trial the fact that HHM harmed clients by allowing a partner with a severe mental illness to work with critical documents ina a largely unsecured house without electricity. If HHM is threatened with significant damage, Howard will be forced to betray Chuck, with regard to testimony at Jimmy's trial. This is going to get really, really, ugly, and that'll be very entertaining.

Really love the way they established the business relationship between Mike and Gus, including the flash forward cold open where the shoe string has rotted away with Gus' trucks now running the route.  I still believe that Hector will end up with brain damage at the hand of Gus

That also opens HHM to potential damage, for letting a mentally ill partner handle documents in this fashion

 

2 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

We'll see where they go but I don't see how it'd be a credible legal threat.  First, as far as we know, Chuck has not been officially diagnosed with a mental illness and even if he had been, I'm not sure how it'd be relevant at trial.  But even if he had been diagnosed with a mental illness and even if he were able to bring this up in court, as far as we know, there's zero evidence that his condition has affected the quality of the work he chooses to do.  Mental illness does not automatically make a person incompetent or incapable at their jobs.

The only way I could see it having negative repercussions for HHM is because Jimmy would know which buttons to push on the stand and Chuck could have a meltdown.

It was nice to see the doctor again.  And while I do like the longer scenes, the show had a good balance of switching back and forth.

I think Chuck is extremely competent at his job, but ABA rules are pretty clear on securing client files.  Keeping them in your house with no electricity, because you can't stand batteries is probably not the best.  I mean, Jimmy was able to get in there and it didn't look that hard.  Now, is it a crime?  No.  But would it fuck with Chuck being able to practice law?  There might be some minor discipline.  But more importantly, it would mess with his standing and reputation in the legal community.  I don't know how many clients know about Chuck's "illness," but there would be a certain stigma that might attach to a partner at a big law firm having a serious disease.  So, does Chuck want that coming out in court?  Does he really want to be the subject of hushed whispers and pointed looks?  I don't know.

And I don't know that it will go there, but I think it might be an effective bargaining chip.

I know that Chucks mental state/hospitalization could be relevant to Jimmy's defense, so maybe it comes up.  I mean, the doctor at the hospital pretty much told Jimmy that the illness was all in Chuck's head -- does Chuck really want that out there in the world?

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3 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

We'll see where they go but I don't see how it'd be a credible legal threat.  First, as far as we know, Chuck has not been officially diagnosed with a mental illness and even if he had been, I'm not sure how it'd be relevant at trial.  But even if he had been diagnosed with a mental illness and even if he were able to bring this up in court, as far as we know, there's zero evidence that his condition has affected the quality of the work he chooses to do.  Mental illness does not automatically make a person incompetent or incapable at their jobs.

The only way I could see it having negative repercussions for HHM is because Jimmy would know which buttons to push on the stand and Chuck could have a meltdown.

It was nice to see the doctor again.  And while I do like the longer scenes, the show had a good balance of switching back and forth.

If your partner thinks the battery in your key fob affects his well-being, you know he is mentally ill.  If you allow him to keep clients' critical documents in an unsecure fashion, in his home without electricity, because he thinks he can't work in buildings with electricity, and this provides an opportunity for someone to alter those documents, as the mentally ill partner lays incapacitated by his electricity phobia, then your partner's mental illness has affected the client.

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Furthermore, having your partner make pitches to retain clients, based upon the partners' specialized legal expertise, without revealing to the clients that a chronic medical condition is likely, based upon recent experience, to make the partner unable to lend his expertise for extended periods of time, is deceptive, and harms the client. If your partner had MS, for instance, and frequently took leave as a result, you better not be giving the impression, when pitching clents, that your partner's specialized legal expertise in compliance issues is something the client can expect to consistently benefit from, because that impression would be a false one.

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4 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

So deeply satisfying.

The thing that I examined closely, and marvelled at, was Chuck;s choice to come out to speak with Jimmy in the DIRECT sun, with zero extraneous coverage.  He easily could have gone to Jimmy's left and turned his body with his back to the sun, and not his face getting the maximum available solar rays.  I also could not detect even the slightest twitch in his entire body.  He was 100% normal.  This is the first, and only, time this was true in 23 eps.  Not even sunglasses.  

I dearly loved the time machine open with the sneakers.  I spent so much time pondering the significance.  The payoff was beyond tremendous.  Then, Hector's truck stops...Why won't MIke shoot?  What the heck?  Kill them both!  Mike, you do NOT want to disappoint Gus on your first job!...Then...sugar from the sky and a visit to the border checkpoint (so brillllliantly introduced last season) and a K-9.  Just beautiful.  Only BrBa and this show.

Question for y'all:  Was Chuck feigning potential personal difficulty in appearing at trial, or was it part of the con to get the ADA to go along with his scheme?  Just how "cured" is he?  I really don't know, which is a wonderful thing.  What say y'all? 

Despite not being able to figure this out, may I keep my PTV car?  I'll share my trans fats, I promise.  :)

I agree, great episode.

I was wondering what was going on with the sneakers as well.  The payoff at the end when a Los Pollos Hermanos truck replaces Hector's ice cream truck on the drug route was a brilliant way of showing that Gus eventually wins the battle with Hector for the territory, though Hector gets the last laugh 

I really want to know what the relationship between Gus, Hector and the cartel is at this point.  I believe Gus told Mike that Hector was an associate of an associate  (a bit of a call back to Saul saying he knows a guy, who knows a guy...who knows a guy).  He also said it was not in his interest to have Hector killed...at this time.

In BB, it was said that North of border was Fring's terroritory (which was why the cousins could not kill Walt without his permission).  I don't sense that Fring has that status at this stage.

As for Chuck, he always seems able to control his condition when he is highly motivated...and that motivation is almost always undermining Jimmy.  It could be that in the exhilaration of thinking he has "won", he has momentarily forgotten how "deadly" that EM radiation is to him.  Either that, or he was motivated by the opportunity to gloat.

I wonder if Jimmy's talk about Chuck dying alone in a hospital, surrounded by whirring machines was foreshadowing.  I hope he at least lives long enough to see the airwaves and bus benches plastered with "Better Call Saul" ads.  If the electricity doesn't kill him that probably would.  He would be pining for the "good old days" of "Gimme Jimmy".

Edited by Bryce Lynch.
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48 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Was that Brock and Andrea I saw in the doctor's office?

I was thinking the boy looked a lot like a younger Brock.  But, I think Brock probably would have been a toddler at this point.  Was the clinic in the US or Mexico?

Interesting how Fring's doctor runs a free clinic.  Is he a good guy who uses Fring's drug money to do good works?  Was the clinic Fring's idea?  If so, did he do it out of generosity? To hide in plain sight? A bit of both?

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7 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I was thinking the boy looked a lot like a younger Brock.  But, I think Brock probably would have been a toddler at this point.  Was the clinic in the US or Mexico?

Interesting how Fring's doctor runs a free clinic.  Is he a good guy who uses Fring's drug money to do good works?  Was the clinic Fring's idea?  If so, did he do it out of generosity? To hide in plain sight? A bit of both?

Even though its free, I would imagine, at the time, he could order ephedra or whatever they put into meth in large quantities through the clinic.  But thats just a guess.

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10 minutes ago, RealReality said:

Even though its free, I would imagine, at the time, he could order ephedra or whatever they put into meth in large quantities through the clinic.  But thats just a guess.

Good point.  I was thinking of his relationship with the doctor more in terms of a place for Fring's men to get no questions asked medical attention when they get shot....or poisoned.  But, it could also certainly be used to get supplies for his drug trade.

My question was more about why it is setup as a free clinic rather than a regular doctor's office.  Is it a genuinely good side of Gus or the doctor or is it totally calculated?

Edited by Bryce Lynch.
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4 hours ago, knaankos said:
4 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

 

Question for y'all:  Was Chuck feigning potential personal difficulty in appearing at trial, or was it part of the con to get the ADA to go along with his scheme?  Just how "cured" is he?  I really don't know, which is a wonderful thing.  What say y'all? 

 

It seems like Chuck's illness rears its ugly head when he is in stressful situations or a situation is not going his way. The two most extreme examples being when the Mesa Verde address mistake was revealed and then again at the copy shop. When situations are going well it seems to bother him less. I don't believe he is acting, I think it's just a case of stress magnifying the mental disorder. 

I'm calling "why not both". Chuck thinks he's sick, and his body's going along with the ride.

If Jimmy was to never practice law again and Chuck never felt threatened by Jimmy ever again, I would suspect he would "get better".

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5 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Good point.  I was thinking of his relationship with the doctor more in terms of a place for Fring's men to get no questions asked medical attention when they get shot....or poisoned.  But, it could also certainly be used to get supplies for his drug trade.

My question was more about why it is setup as a free clinic rather than a regular doctor's office.  Is it a genuinely good side of Gus or the doctor or is it totally calculated.

That would be a great secondary or primary benefit.

Well, I think a free clinic makes people ask a lot fewer questions and do a lot less digging.  No government official is going to come sniffing around during tax season looking for money.  No US Federal agents are going to try to get you by tracking sales and customers, and you may not be required to keep super strict records in Mexico.  And, I'm sure Gus doesn't hate the fact that some of his money is going to help poor people.  I remember him living a very quiet, nondescript suburban lifestyle.  He was no Playah, thats for damn sure....so he has no need for more cash.

Edited by RealReality.
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5 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

The thing that I examined closely, and marvelled at, was Chuck;s choice to come out to speak with Jimmy in the DIRECT sun, with zero extraneous coverage.  He easily could have gone to Jimmy's left and turned his body with his back to the sun, and not his face getting the maximum available solar rays.  I also could not detect even the slightest twitch in his entire body.  He was 100% normal.  This is the first, and only, time this was true in 23 eps.  Not even sunglasses.  

I think Chuck did that once before, early on, when he went out to Jimmy's car to carry some documents, maybe Sandpiper related, without any ill effect, and without realizing what he had done.  I may have the details mixed up, but it was an early clue that he could "forget" about his phobia when heavily engaged in something other than avoiding electro-magnetics.  

The fact that Chuck would have Ernie fired has really colored him very, very black.  That was a tipping point for me.  I no longer am looking at the shades of whose behavior is worse, Chuck is a black heart.

29 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I was thinking the boy looked a lot like a younger Brock.  But, I think Brock probably would have been a toddler at this point.  Was the clinic in the US or Mexico?

I think it was in Mexico.  Aside from the initial meeting with Gus, I think all of Mike's scenes were supposed to be in Mexico.

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1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

 

I wonder if Jimmy's talk about Chuck dying alone in a hospital, surrounded by whirring machines was foreshadowing.  I hope he at least lives long enough to see the airwaves and bus benches plastered with "Better Call Saul" ads.  If the electricity doesn't kill him that probably would.  He would be pining for the "good old days" of "Gimme Jimmy".

I have thought for some time that Chuck would not be alive in the Breaking Bad universe, but I suppose it could be that he is permenantly institutionalized. I just dont see Chuck and Saul practicing law in Albuquerque at the same time. I do think Howard is going to betray Chuck at some point, as Jimmy and maybe Kim find a leverage point.

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28 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

The fact that Chuck would have Ernie fired has really colored him very, very black.  That was a tipping point for me.  I no longer am looking at the shades of whose behavior is worse, Chuck is a black heart.

Very much this.  He manipulated Ernie into telling JImmy about the tape and he still fired him.  I'm glad Jimmy's fighting back but I'm kind of hoping it's something Ernesto does that signals the beginning of the end for Chuck.

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

I have thought for some time that Chuck would not be alive in the Breaking Bad universe, but I suppose it could be that he is permenantly institutionalized. I just dont see Chuck and Saul practicing law in Albuquerque at the same time. I do think Howard is going to betray Chuck at some point, as Jimmy and maybe Kim find a leverage point.

I've felt this too that Chuck would be dead by the time that BB is around.  Though I would love for him to see those "Better Call Saul" commercials.  Maybe then he could die.

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I also think it is notable that Howard and Chuck have, at this point in time, become really crappy at managing a largish law firm. Jimmy and Kim had both established themselves as lawyers who are capable of executing that most important of tasks for a largish law firm, which is filling the revenue pipeline. Lawyers like that are really, really, valuable, and Howard and Chuck have driven both away for really stupid reasons.

The eventual destruction of HHM is a credible outcome at this point.

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45 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I think Chuck did that once before, early on, when he went out to Jimmy's car to carry some documents, maybe Sandpiper related, without any ill effect, and without realizing what he had done.  I may have the details mixed up, but it was an early clue that he could "forget" about his phobia when heavily engaged in something other than avoiding electro-magnetics.  

The fact that Chuck would have Ernie fired has really colored him very, very black.  That was a tipping point for me.  I no longer am looking at the shades of whose behavior is worse, Chuck is a black heart.

I think it was in Mexico.  Aside from the initial meeting with Gus, I think all of Mike's scenes were supposed to be in Mexico.

I feel like I'm Chuck's lawyer here, but I think he had pretty, good cause to fire Ernie.  I love Ernie and he was thrust into a very, difficult situation.  But,  he sided with Chuck's "enemy", Jimmy, twice.  

We know that he helped Jimmy cover up his cut and paste fraud, by lying and saying that he had called Jimmy to let him know that Chuck was at the copy shop, interrogating the clerk.  Chuck might not know that he was lying, but he knows that Ernie either a) Lied b) Actually tipped off Jimmy that Chuck was on his trail.  

Then, while Chuck orchestrated the tape situation, Ernie, once again tipped off Jimmy about the tape, despite being firmly warned not to tell anyone, with that BS "confidentiality" speech.  

Chuck can't have Jimmy's mole working for him.  I don't know if he fired Ernie vindictively, or just saw him as collateral damage, but he really had to fire him.  He cannot trust him.

Anyone else think Ernie might be related to Fring?  I am wondering if his fancy car (on a mailroom clerk's salary) is a gift from Gus, that sort of parallels Walt doting on Walt, Jr. with the Challenger.  He certainly bears a resemblance to Gus, both in appearance and mannerisms.  Plus his names ends in a "o" suggesting Latino descent.  Both use Americanized nicknames, as well.  

Edited by Bryce Lynch.
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1 hour ago, RealReality said:

That would be a great secondary or primary benefit.

Well, I think a free clinic makes people ask a lot fewer questions and do a lot less digging.  No government official is going to come sniffing around during tax season looking for money.  No US Federal agents are going to try to get you by tracking sales and customers, and you may not be required to keep super strict records in Mexico.  And, I'm sure Gus doesn't hate the fact that some of his money is going to help poor people.  I remember him living a very quiet, nondescript suburban lifestyle.  He was no Playah, thats for damn sure....so he has no need for more cash.

A free clinic also makes Fring a pillar of the community. No one would believe he could be a drug dealer.

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So, Mike meets Gus for the first time. My two favorite BB/BCS characters! Awww. So happy!

5 hours ago, knaankos said:

It seems like Chuck's illness rears its ugly head when he is in stressful situations or a situation is not going his way. The two most extreme examples being when the Mesa Verde address mistake was revealed and then again at the copy shop. When situations are going well it seems to bother him less. I don't believe he is acting, I think it's just a case of stress magnifying the mental disorder. 

When Jimmy was sitting on the curb and Chuck came out to talk to him, Chuck did not have his space blanket nor a hat and didn't seem the least bit concerned about being outside unprotected.

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7 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I also think it is notable that Howard and Chuck have, at this point in time, become really crappy at managing a largish law firm. Jimmy and Kim had both established themselves as lawyers who are capable of executing that most important of tasks for a largish law firm, which is filling the revenue pipeline. Lawyers like that are really, really, valuable, and Howard and Chuck have driven both away for really stupid reasons.

The eventual destruction of HHM is a credible outcome at this point.

Well, Chuck is nuts and not focused on HHM at all. But, I am not sure Howard is doing a bad job.  He is in a difficult position, having to run things by himself and try to keep Chuck's lunacy from becoming public and potentially destroying the firm.  The firm still seems to be thriving, at this point. 

I am beginning to expect that we will soon see a serious conflict between Chuck and Howard.  Howard seemed fed up with Chuck's antics, after he had to scale the back wall to visit him.  He also would prioritize the firm's interests over Chuck's crusade against Jimmy, while Chuck might burn down the firm to undermine his brother.   I think they will go at it, soon, but I don't know if it will be an open conflict, or Howard trying to go behind Chuck's back, or manipulate him.  

4 minutes ago, scenario said:

A free clinic also makes Fring a pillar of the community. No one would believe he could be a drug dealer.

Yes, it fits in with him sponsoring the DEA  Fun Run, bringing food to the cops in the hospital and putting up a reward for information about Hank's shooting.  Hiding in plain sight.  I still want to know if it is all for show, or if he also enjoys being charitable.  He gave the chemistry scholarship to many students, but only, as far as we know, used one to cook his meth.  

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1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Well, Chuck is nuts and not focused on HHM at all. But, I am not sure Howard is doing a bad job.  He is in a difficult position, having to run things by himself and try to keep Chuck's lunacy from becoming public and potentially destroying the firm.  The firm still seems to be thriving, at this point. 

I am beginning to expect that we will soon see a serious conflict between Chuck and Howard.  Howard seemed fed up with Chuck's antics, after he had to scale the back wall to visit him.  He also would prioritize the firm's interests over Chuck's crusade against Jimmy, while Chuck might burn down the firm to undermine his brother.   I think they will go at it, soon, but I don't know if it will be an open conflict, or Howard trying to go behind Chuck's back, or manipulate him.  

Howard almost certainly was a good manager at one point, and there is a lot of ruin in a once well managed large law firm. Things can keep advancing on past successes for some time. However, Howard's completely idiotic management of Kim, a lawyer who was able to pick up the telephone,  shake the trees, and produce a huge client, is an indicator of a manager who has lost sight of what makes a large law firm a success in the future. The beast must be fed, and woe awaits the manager who loses sight of this fundamantal fact. Howard's lost his acumen, in all likelihood

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A terrific episode but another one that was hard to watch in spots as Jimmy still didn't seem to be getting the deadly seriousness of Chuck's game until the very end when the details of the plea deal were offered up.  He kept talking about bartering the whole mess down to a couple of misdemeanors, something he could surely manage to get himself out of, no big deal, and I kept wanting to scream "Your own brother taped you and goaded you into a B&E because he hates you that much.  How are you still not seeing that he's not just going to let it go away quietly?" 

Chuck was positively chilling in saying that it was all for Jimmy's own good and how he'd be there to help him after it was all over with, as in his playing the poor long-suffering beleaguered brother with the prosecutor.  "Jimmy's just so emotional."  Because I do believe that Chuck mostly believes that and that once again he's in the right.  Any suffering he inflicts now is in his mind for the greater good of removing the chimp with a machine gun.  It all goes back that first season confession when he said he could live with Slippin' Jimmy, but not Slippin' Jimmy with a law degree.   If Jimmy is disbarred and ends up dependent on Chuck again in some subservient position, everything will go back to the way it should be.

It feels like the death or serious incapacitation anvils are ringing pretty hard for Chuck now, between Jimmy telling him how it's going to be dying alone surrounded by machines and the prosecutor stressing that Chuck will have to testify in court to make this stick.  Because Saul in BB exists, we know something is going to prevent Jimmy from going down with a felony and disbarment but we don't know how.   I also don't know how that works when Chuck made a point to line up extra witnesses but I'm curious to see how it all plays out.

Loved the flash forward with the trucks and shoes as a framing device.  Mike's stake out adventures worked better for me this episode than the past two, probably at least in part because they weren't about sitting in the dark during a late-night time slot and stuff actually happened.  I really liked a lot of the camera work and individual shots throughout.

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2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Howard almost certainly was a good manager at one point, and there is a lot of ruin in a once well managed large law firm. Things can keep advancing on past successes for some time. However, Howard's completely idiotic management of Kim, a lawyer who was able to pick up the telephone,  shake the trees, and produce a huge client, is an indicator of a manager who has lost sight of what makes a large law firm a success in the future. The beast must be fed, and woe awaits the manager who loses sight of this fundamantal fact. Howard's lost his acumen, in all likelihood

Kim signed ONE client and it is probably because Paige has a crush on her.  She also hurt his reputation and the reputation of HHM by convincing him to recommend Slippin' Jimmy McGill to Davis & Main., and as far as he knows, by not letting him know that Jimmy  was airing an unauthorized TV ad in the name of D&M.  Kim was probably valuable, but certainly not irreplaceable.  

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24 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I feel like I'm Chuck's lawyer here, but I think he had pretty, good cause to fire Ernie.  I love Ernie and he was thrust into a very, difficult situation.  But,  he sided with Chuck's "enemy", Jimmy, twice.  

We know that he helped Jimmy cover up his cut and paste fraud, by lying and saying that he had called Jimmy to let him know that Chuck was at the copy shop, interrogating the clerk.  Chuck might not know that he was lying, but he knows that Ernie either a) Lied b) Actually tipped off Jimmy that Chuck was on his trail.  

Then, while Chuck orchestrated the tape situation, Ernie, once again tipped off Jimmy about the tape, despite being firmly warned not to tell anyone, with that BS "confidentiality" speech.  

Chuck can't have Jimmy's mole working for him.  I don't know if he fired Ernie vindictively, or just saw him as collateral damage, but he really had to fire him.  He cannot trust him.

Anyone else think Ernie might be related to Fring?  I am wondering if his fancy car (on a mailroom clerk's salary) is a gift from Gus, that sort of parallels Walt doting on Walt, Jr. with the Challenger.  He certainly bears a resemblance to Gus, both in appearance and mannerisms.  Plus his names ends in a "o" suggesting Latino descent.  Both use Americanized nicknames, as well.  

I concur.  Is it absolutely shitty that Chuck couldn't have set Ernie up any harder if he'd been out drawing Wile E. Coyote bright red dotted lines and arrows to the tape with his hugely dramatic "shhhh, don't tell Jimmy?"  Absolutely.  He used him as his errand boy that one last time and then sacked him for it.  But that's part of Chuck's schtick.  He's inflicting terrible damage to people but everything he does is within his rights as Ernie's boss and within the letter of the law.  So he's the good guy in this.

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Chuck is the good guy in his own deluded mind. 

True, he's within his rights to fire Ernie and Ernie did leak out "confidential" information.  But I'm not pinning a medal on Chuck's chest here.

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1 minute ago, benteen said:

Chuck is the good guy in his own deluded mind. 

True, he's within his rights to fire Ernie and Ernie did leak out "confidential" information.  But I'm not pinning a medal on Chuck's chest here.

I agree, Chuck is not a "good guy", but firing Ernie was one of the more understandable things he has done.  If you buy into Chuck's idea that Jimmy must be stopped from practicing law (and Chuck obviously does in his mind), Chuck really hasn't done anything "wrong" at all.   It seems like both Chuck and Jimmy are being sucked into a vortex of doing bad things for "good" reasons.   

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I don't think anyone's pinning a medal on Chuck for being a good guy.  Just that if you, like he apparently does, ignore that he orchestrated all of this by setting up both Jimmy and Ernie, you can see how he turns it around in his head so he's the victim of the brother who broke into his home and the employee who betrayed his confidence.  After all, he's not the one who was fired or arrested.  

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45 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Kim signed ONE client and it is probably because Paige has a crush on her.  She also hurt his reputation and the reputation of HHM by convincing him to recommend Slippin' Jimmy McGill to Davis & Main., and as far as he knows, by not letting him know that Jimmy  was airing an unauthorized TV ad in the name of D&M.  Kim was probably valuable, but certainly not irreplaceable.  

Well, nobody on the planet is irreplaceable, and a manager who doesn't have enough sense to keep Kim around long enough to see if she can replicate her performance, in bringing on a huge client, is behaving quite stupidly. Stupidity gets punished not infrequently. Frankly, D & M's handling of Jimmy was quite dumb. Yeah, Jimmy was wrong to run the commercial without prior approval, and he is fundamentally incapable of being a good bureaucratic soldier. He also produces piles of cash. The obvious solution was to set him up as a one man shop, expressly for the purpose of finding Sandpiper  class action litigants, with a revenue sharing agreement for referrals to D & M. One of the things I like about this show is that it writes stupid behavior in a credible fashion, instead of what most shows do,  which is convenienty remove all intellect from an otherwise intelligent character when the plot needs to be advanced. In contrast, stupid bureaucratic management, by people with high I.Q.s, is one of the more common forms of idiocy, whether borne of complacency, or egocentrism. Lawyers who claim they are principally opposed to t.v. advertisement as a means of obtaining clients, and then run crappy commercials, instead of effective ones, are guilty of both failings. I've really enjoyed how this was written.

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2 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I think it was in Mexico.  Aside from the initial meeting with Gus, I think all of Mike's scenes were supposed to be in Mexico.

All the truck scenes were definitely in the US, the driver and his buddy were dropping off their guns before going back through the border. We saw last season that the driver would cross unarmed and then pick up a gun once he was across. I think the clinic was probably in the states, I don't see Mike risking crossing the border with a "yay big" package of drugs. I also doubt he'd try to cross into mexico with a rifle in his car, more evidence that the truck scene was in the US.

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2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Well, nobody on the planet is irreplaceable, and a manager who doesn't have enough sense to keep Kim around long enough to see if she can replicate her performance, in bringing on a huge client, is behaving quite stupidly. Stupidity gets punished not infrequently. Frankly, D & M's handling of Jimmy was quite dumb. Yeah, Jimmy was wrong to run the commercial without prior approval, and he is fundamentally incapable of being a good bureaucratic soldier. He also produces piles of cash. The obvious solution was to set him up as a one man shop, expressly for the purpose of finding Sandpiper  class action litigants, with a revenue sharing agreement for referrals to D & M. One of the things I like about this show is that it writes stupid behavior in a credible fashion, instead of what most shows do,  which is convenienty remove all intellect from an otherwise intelligent character when the plot needs to be advanced. In contrast, stupid bureaucratic management, by people with high I.Q.s, is one of the more common forms of idiocy, whether borne of complacency, or egocentrism. Lawyers who claim they are principally opposed to t.v. advertisement as a means of obtaining clients, and then run crappy commercials, instead of effective ones, are guilty of both failings. I've really enjoyed how this was written.

Spinning off Jimmy into a separate firm to handle Sandpiper might have made sense.  But, of course, for the plot to move the way it is supposed to Jimmy needed to get fired from D&M, and how it was done was plausible to me.

As for the ad Jimmy ran:

1) It showed he was a loose canon, who couldn't be trusted to follow the rules, which probably confirmed fears they had about him coming in.

2) They pointed out that Sandpiper is just one small part of their business and that many of their big clients might not want to work with a firm that runs ambulance chaser type ads.  Jimmy gets so focused on his immediate goals, that he can miss the big picture.  

Regarding Kim and Howard.  Howard did keep Kim around.  Who knows he might have paroled her from doc review in a week or a month.  Kim quit to start her own practice and Howard handled it graciously, wishing her luck and forgiving her tuition loan.  

Even if we assume his decision to keep Kim in document review was a bad one, a single questionable personnel decision does not make someone a horrible manager.  

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3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Was that Brock and Andrea I saw in the doctor's office?

That's it! I kept searching last night to see if any posters caught this. It would fit with all the hints we were getting that another "beloved character" from BB was showing up.

So who put the bullet holes in the stop sign? Is that a "thing" in NM?

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3 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

All the truck scenes were definitely in the US, the driver and his buddy were dropping off their guns before going back through the border. We saw last season that the driver would cross unarmed and then pick up a gun once he was across. I think the clinic was probably in the states, I don't see Mike risking crossing the border with a "yay big" package of drugs. I also doubt he'd try to cross into mexico with a rifle in his car, more evidence that the truck scene was in the US.

Weren't the road signs in Spanish? "Alto".  Do they have Spanish road sign in NM?  Were the agents who caught Hector's men American or Mexican?  If the truck scenes took place in Mexico, you'd expect them to be American and vice versa.    

It is possible that they would bury guns on both sides of the border, so they would only be unarmed during the crossings.  

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5 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

That's it! I kept searching last night to see if any posters caught this. It would fit with all the hints we were getting that another "beloved character" from BB was showing up.

So who put the bullet holes in the stop sign? Is that a "thing" in NM?

As the poster up thread said, Brock would have been a baby when this happened.

That stop sign was in Mexico, hence the word "Alto". 

I believe that clinic was in Mexico. That was the same doc who set up the portable clinic to save Gustav and Mike after they took the poisoned tequila to the boss of the cartel.

Edited by OoogleEyes.
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