S06.E09: Sock Puppets 2017.03.19

22 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Dirty old man" sounds like Dar was just engaging in some overly vigorous horseplay or leering at boys' bodies. That's why I don't think Dar had sex with Quinn but probably did do so with other boys

I can understand this because it did seem light, but I thought the tone of this portion of the scene was played, in part, for humor.  Both Dar and Quinn kept it light, Dar's "yeah well...and "fair enough."  For Quinn, there might be a lack of clarity due to his aphasia, and for Dar, it might be denial, which we see continues with his seemingly genuine ILY in this episode.  I don't know, but there is, at least, a sexual component to this relationship even if it's Dar, over the years, staring and/or touching Quinn inappropriately.  There's something sick here, as I felt my stomach drop in these scenes, even when tone had some humor on the dock.  

Edited by sunflower.

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I didn't get any humor or lightness from Quinn's tone. He spit out "fucking dirty old man" with pure and utter disgust.

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I know Clare Danes is the star, but he (and F. Murray) to me are the interesting, best-acted characters. 

At this point, I find Carrie to be the least interesting and most one-note character on the show, and I think it was a mistake to really take her out of the loop and concentrate so much on her role as a mother.  I'm tired of the ugly cry, I'm tired of the forehead crinkle and I'm tired of the constant bad decision making.  I know that part of that is her character, but she just doesn't do it for me anymore.  I find even minor characters to be more interesting than her at this point.  Even the Carrie/Saul scene didn't move me like it normally would, but I am glad that Saul reminded her of her bad romantic decision making as well.

God help me, I thought that Quinn putting Astrid's blood on his face to be very moving/romantic.  I love Quinn.

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1 hour ago, Deanie87 said:

Even the Carrie/Saul scene didn't move me like it normally would, but I am glad that Saul reminded her of her bad romantic decision making as well.

I actually thought that this was uncharacteristically petulant of Saul.  Sure, Carrie's done some dumb things but the one who landed them in the shit in Berlin was Saul.  I know Saul's feeling a bit frazzled (seeing as his career is over) and embarrassed, but it was still seemed a bit childish.  Saul screwed a mole and covered it up (or at least left stuff out of his report), this one's all on him.  Carrie helped straighten this shit out, nearly died, and kept his actions secret (until recently).  Might want to ease up there, Saul. 

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I didn't get any humor or lightness from Quinn's tone. He spit out "fucking dirty old man" with pure and utter disgust.

Dar's immediate answer that it was consensual puts it paid for me.  "I never forced myself on anybody"?  What's that even mean to a kid?  Dar's a pedo, and deluded if he thinks Peter is gonna respond well to 'but I love you'.  

Edited by henripootel.

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5 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

it seems to me Quinn wouldn't have couched it in such a relatively benign way.

What if we are all seeing in black or white when this subject is more complex? I'm thinking about the children whose parents have sexually abused them as kids and they still love them as adults. They claim they know what their parents did was wrong but they love them because they're family and also did good things to them. imo they think that way because they are still traumatised. Usually, the children who had emotional support from other members of the family cut ties with the abusive parents, and the ones who continued in the same abusive environment for years are the ones who can't cut ties.

 

With Quinn, we don't know the full story but I guess it's not the first time Dar tells him he's "his child" knowing he can manipulate him because he's the father figure. As an adult, Quinn knows what Dar did (to him or other kids) is disgusting, but he's still his father and deep inside him still loves him. Quinn didn't have anyone and I doubt he's been in therapy if he was abused, so he's been in a toxic environment for decades with the abuser being his boss. What is clear to me is that Quinn is an emotional roller coaster when he's with Dar.

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I don't think Dar abused Quinn or had sex with him, he raised him like his son, Dar is manipulative son of a bitch, that dialogue for me meant he wanted Quinn to man up and not be miserable.

I also think that Dar knew Quinn was listening when he called that guy, so Quinn could kill him.

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7 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

It's the "dirty old man" thing that's giving me pause. To me, if a man seduces a young boy, later the adult victim would call the guy a predator, a rapist, a pedophile, or an abuser. "Dirty old man" sounds like Dar was just engaging in some overly vigorous horseplay or leering at boys' bodies. That's why I don't think Dar had sex with Quinn but probably did do so with other boys. Otherwise, it seems to me Quinn wouldn't have couched it in such a relatively benign way.

 

I'll respectfully disagree.   One, Quinn has a speech impaired TBI.  Two, I have worked with a wide variety of abuse victims and I think the language they are much more likely to use is the less clinical 'dirty ol' man' then the abuser, rapist, pedophile, etc.  The language is often protective of the abuse victim that they don't have to specifically say what happened to them, but can say that something did in fact happen.  

I have no question that Dar fucked Quinn when he was a teenager.  

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What if we are all seeing in black or white when this subject is more complex?

I agree that within the context of the show it could be more complex. However, so far, I think they've left plenty of wiggle room. Unless Quinn or Dar specifically says something like, "You had sex with me" or "I had sex with you" (or another character confirms it somehow), I don't think it's certain either way. The whole thing seems like a last minute soap opera-ish development to me anyway. If they're going to have Quinn kill Dar, there might be few better reasons than because Dar sexually abused him as a boy. Interesting that this detail would pop up right before they're perhaps getting ready to send Dar and/or Quinn out the door as characters.

The plot point surprised and amused me because on Scandal--Homeland if it were written by 12-year olds--there's been a similar one in place for a couple of seasons now. Scandal's version of Dar calls another character his son, even though they're not biologically related and said "son" was once the lover of the Dar-equivalent character's actual daughter. On Scandal we saw the Quinn-equivalent being isolated and tortured to the point of total breakdown. Then he was rebuilt into a dark ops agent who was part of a super secret spy agency operating outside the authority of all other US agencies and government officials. The Dar-equivalent commanded this secret agency and his MO has been to subjugate his agents by abusing them, mostly verbally after they've been "broken." So when Dar started calling Quinn his son, my eyes practically rolled out of my head at the hopefully unintentional similarity to Scandal. Heaven help us if Homeland is now stealing from Scandal of all places.

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For me, it's less about whether Dar slept with Quinn, it's that the writers felt the need to toss that grenade onto the 'Dar is evil' pile more than 3 seasons after they both show up. I think it was done as a cheap shot to get anyone who still liked the character to move to the other side. I say cheap, because they've done everything but given Dar a mustache to twirl this season:  taking a child away from her mother, blowing up a teenager along with part of New York, kidnapping the POTUS elect, killing Astrid (by accident maybe), telling the one woman he seems to love that she is responsible for his condition, taking all power away from Saul, etc.

Seems all that would have been enough.

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57 minutes ago, WaltersHair said:

me, it's less about whether Dar slept with Quinn, it's that the writers felt the need to toss that grenade onto the 'Dar is evil' pile more than 3 seasons after they both show up. I think it was done as a cheap shot to get anyone who still liked the character to move to the other side.

This is an excellent point, so from a writing perspective, what's a good argument for introducing this story element outside of making Dar totally evil?  What's weird is I still see him as a human being, maybe that's Abraham's good acting helping the way.  I can't imagine he survives the season, unless it's in shadows to leave the country and show up somewhere unexpected next season.  

Edited by sunflower.

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On 3/20/2017 at 7:56 AM, lullaby said:

What I fully don't understand is that Quinn seemed moved by his words. He's not a minor anymore and knows fully well Dar is a grade a manipulator. Yet Quinn was shivering when Dar told him he loves him and couldn't pull the trigger. I saw it as Quinn kind of loving him too because Dar is his father figure, the person who raised him.

Yes. Adal is Quinn's father -- that is, his savior and his maker. I agree with lullaby's considered re-interpretation:

6 hours ago, lullaby said:

With Quinn, we don't know the full story but I guess it's not the first time Dar tells him he's "his child" knowing he can manipulate him because he's the father figure. As an adult, Quinn knows what Dar did (to him or other kids) is disgusting, but he's still his father and deep inside him still loves him.

The intimate and profoundly coersive mystique that Adal has practiced upon Quinn for decades is a violation akin to incest. To me, the show has, for now, left it deliberately ambiguous whether Adal molested Quinn physically -- at the same time Adal himself acknowledged that he molested Quinn's fellows, an admission couched in a rationalization: "I never forced myself on anyone." I think it's Carrie to whom Peter will make it clear.

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17 hours ago, henripootel said:

Dar's immediate answer that it was consensual puts it paid for me.  "I never forced myself on anybody"?  

According to law, Quinn was a kid and unable to "consent". In the eyes of the law (and ethically if, as we understand it, he took Quinn in like a foster) it was rape.

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1 hour ago, Ina123 said:

According to law, Quinn was a kid and unable to "consent". In the eyes of the law (and ethically if, as we understand it, he took Quinn in like a foster) it was rape.

Oh, I know that perfectly well.  It was Dar's tone which suggested that since he never 'forced himself' on anyone, everything was just hunky-dory.  We don't know Dar's exact legal relationship with Quinn at that point nor Quinn's exact age, but it doesn't matter - Dar's a piece of shit.  His of-late protestations of love make me want to see him die more, not less.  

Edited by henripootel.

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On 3/20/2017 at 1:04 PM, ahpny said:

but what exactly tipped Dar off? The suggestion of day time drinking?

I think it was the hint that she'd appoint Dar to Director. "Nothing's off the table!" she said, while making him coffee. ...And that was just a Nice Too Far. And while I'm in that room, allow me to vent about PEOTUS being the one to make coffee. Totally NOT ALL RIGHT! No man PEOTUS would do such a thing and it makes me nuts that they have Keane doing so. Unless it was part of her plan, but it still grates on my very last nerve.*

OMG, I was yelling at the screen for Quinn to shoot Dar, and was disappointed that he didn't. But! His plan to get Dar to phone the Lurking Neighbor couldn't have unfolded without Dar being left alive, so I have to temper my grumbling. (Yeah, I'm on the Dar Raped Baby Quinn train. Not that I'm in favor of it -- I mean that I think that's what the show/actors are conveying.

*In the early days of my professional career, I was often tasked with making coffee in offices that weren't my own, just because I was The Woman. I consequently have learned complete ignorance about all things coffee, to divert any such future sexist assumptions. Which still happen, yea, these 30 years later. Nerves? Grated.

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Weren't we told in some season that Quinn was 15 when Dar took him in? It could be a figment of my imagination but it seems it came up around the time he was seeing the big girl.

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1 hour ago, attica said:

*In the early days of my professional career, I was often tasked with making coffee in offices that weren't my own, just because I was The Woman. I consequently have learned complete ignorance about all things coffee, to divert any such future sexist assumptions. Which still happen, yea, these 30 years later. Nerves? Grated.

For me it happened at my second job in 1972. I was the only female employee (engineering) aside from a secretary/receptionist up front. A few days in, I happened to come in very early. The first guy in after me walked up to my drawing board and said, "I'm surprised you didn't get the coffee started." I completely deadpanned, "Remain surprised. Don't drink it -don't make it." And I never have 45 years later. I credit my dad for the advice regarding making coffee in the office.

Edited by Ina123.

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I just re-watched and realized Quinn is going full on Rambo-veteran with a gun pushed too far. He might just end up in the street, shirtless with a bandana tied around his head, yelling while shoot his gun in the air.

Please, show. Make this happen. Please.

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I'm beginning to think that Dar is really not a baddy at all but more under someone else's thumb to get these things done and that his slip ups like Javadi's phone and calling the hitman on the open line were intentional clues left for the others so that they can unravel the plot without him tipping off whoever has him in their grasp. His telling Carrie to back down not so much a threat but a heads up, shits fucked sorta thing. If he was really all bad why put forth the effort to help Quinn and I did feel he was being genuine in his words to Quinn before he got punched. It just seems like something bigger is at play here and I still can't get a grasp on Dar's motivations. Lack of villain motivation is a huge pet peeve of mine so it's not sitting right. Just speculation of course. 

Also, I love his season.

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What tipped Dar off? Did peotus ever mention she was a non drinker? Right after she talks about drinking in the morning he knows that she is on to him!! I didn't think it was that outrageous of a comment for peotus!? 

Please explain this to mom!! 💋💋

Edited by Dena.

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OK, so wouldn't everyone recognise the Right Wing Jock as the boss of a tech firm? I'd think he'd want to keep the two "personnas" at arms length. Because they don't really gel - if (say) Bill Gates was using his wealth not to save the world but to promote AMURICA! everyone would know about it. So wouldn't everyone know what the guy was up to? Which you'd think would rather diminish the effect he's going for.

PEOTUS seems to switch positions WAY too fast. Last episode, she seemed to be going, "I don't what anything more to do with you two!" (Carrie & Saul) whereas now she's back to "Dar is the devil!" You'd think she would be more consistent in her beliefs, considering "reversing current Middle East policy" seemed to be her main plank in the election.

And on the subject of Carrie & Saul, I loved their exchange "Maybe you shouldn't have ****ed a Russian spy!" "And maybe YOU shouldn't have ****ed a suicide bomber!" Harsh, but fair. But as the Bible (and the Talmud) says: "Be sure your sins will find you out." (Numbers 32:23) - now way is Dar going down without taking people with him.

On ‎20‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 3:07 PM, Nika said:

Disappointed by Dar's missteps. To many of them for a person of his experience.

I think that's more a case of not being more a political player than a field agent these days - his tradecraft is rusty.

On ‎20‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 3:49 AM, nara said:

I laughed out loud at M&M. So awkward. It's no wonder that guy wanted to move on quickly from that conversation.

Except wouldn't you go, "I lost somebody close to me - I spent that year in therapy"? It didn't seem like it was some grand plan to get in with Mr Rightwing Extremist, it was the plain truth (I think).

On ‎20‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 5:10 PM, Lady Iris said:

Does anybody know how many eps are left in this season?

Three.

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On ‎20‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 5:49 AM, nara said:

I really appreciated the reminder that both Saul and Carrie got played by spies.

Their roles were different: Saul was betrayed by Allison but Carrie turned Brody in S2.

On ‎20‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 5:56 AM, RedFiat said:

The M and M thing was pretty funny, until I remembered about that horrible bombing that killed Max's love interest and muslim CIA Fara back in season 4.  So there was a lot of truth to his not working.  

The best lies are at least partly true.

On ‎20‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 2:19 PM, Giant Misfit said:

This amazing article by Adrien Chen in the New York Times details a Russian troll farm -- and when it unfolded that's the type of US operation Max was working for, it sent chills up my spine. I'd encourage everyone to read it (if they haven't already.) That shit is very real. It's funded by the government, not by a corporation - which, I suspect, is where the Alex Jones of Homeland is getting his $$$. 

I think the Russian trolls are easier to recognize as they don't use their mother tongue and therefore make grammatical errors.

On ‎20‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 7:17 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The people who know your darkest secrets are the ones who really know how to hurt you in a fight like that. I was actually really surprised that Carrie didn't flat out tell Keane that she couldn't let her use that info about Saul/Berlin. Poor Saul - he was right to think that everything he's done will be forgotten and that's all he'll be known for. But just as terrible was his feeling of betrayal that Carrie had told Keane about it at all.

Carrie put many times Brody before her country and ignored orders. I think she should chose her country over her father-figure. 

If Saul really loved his country, he would sacrifice himself in order to get Dar sentenced, instead of moaning of his fame.   

On ‎20‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 9:56 PM, slowpoked said:

I do echo the sentiments of Carrie still not putting two and two together of her daughter being taken away by Dar's machinations. She was able to figure out how Javadi was whisked away by seeing the towels on the floor, but is still not able to see the bigger picture play. I'd like to think she has it figured out and is just not saying, keeping close to the vest, but that's so unlike Carrie, who has the tendencies to blurt out what she's thinking.

In S1 Carrie, unlike any other, suspected Brody, acting almost paranoid. In this season, Carrie had become curiously trusting and slow thinking, let's say normal.

PS. I wonder if Carrie will have to chose doing a spy work or getting in time to meet Franny in Child Protection.

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On ‎21‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 11:26 PM, piequinn35 said:

I don't think Dar abused Quinn or had sex with him, he raised him like his son

Do fathers usually raise his sons to become first lover boys (which Dar told he made Quinn for CIA) and then assassins?

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I must confess that I ceased to like Saul in S5. First, he behaved badly towards Carrie and for no other reason that she wanted to leave CIA and have a normal life with her daughter which he should have accepted if he really had liked her as a human being, not a tool for CIA.  

Second, Saul murdered Allison and did that simply as a personal revenge. If he had behaved like a professional, he should have captured her or rather let the German police capture her (the car was on the German soil or in any case outside Russia) for her interrogation would have been useful, indeed necessary in order to know what secrets she had revealed and what damage she had therefore caused to US intelligence. True, they had her supervisor but if they could have made better results if they could have compared his testimony with that of Allison. 

 Actually, I can't understand how Saul could continue to work in CIA. Even Astrid knew that Saul and Allison were lovers. Carrie told PEOTUS about "the leak in Berlin". Are we really supposed to believe that Saul and Dar succeeded to keep Allison's betrayal secret inside CIA? How was that possible when they had the Russian defector, Allison's supervisor? (Oh well, this is fairytale: in S5 Saul interrogated Allison which would irl have a job for counter-intelligence as Saul couldn't have been neutral toward his subordinate and lover.)

Considering that Saul owed also in S4 an obligation to Dar who got the video about his humilation (and even then the personal interests won over the interests of the country!), it's no wonder that Saul was blind towards Dar and told him about the meeting with Javadi.     

Edited by Roseanna.

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On ‎21‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 6:34 PM, Deanie87 said:

I am glad that Saul reminded her of her bad romantic decision making as well.

To me, it showed that Saul behaved like a five year old ("you are x", "you are too"), unable to admit that after his error of judgment with Allison, he is unfit to work in CIA. Remember, he was so smitten in her that altough she tried to superside him as the CIA chief in Berlin, he forgave her and, instead of sending her back to the USA, kept her with him. 

Thinking back, I guess it was his humilation in S4, rather than the diviorce from Mira, that made Saul so keen to fall for Allison.    

On ‎22‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 0:45 AM, WaltersHair said:

For me, it's less about whether Dar slept with Quinn, it's that the writers felt the need to toss that grenade onto the 'Dar is evil' pile more than 3 seasons after they both show up. I think it was done as a cheap shot to get anyone who still liked the character to move to the other side. I say cheap, because they've done everything but given Dar a mustache to twirl this season:  taking a child away from her mother, blowing up a teenager along with part of New York, kidnapping the POTUS elect, killing Astrid (by accident maybe), telling the one woman he seems to love that she is responsible for his condition, taking all power away from Saul, etc.

Seems all that would have been enough.

For me, it's not at all whether Dar is "bad" or "good". It's only  that he is telling lies to PEOTUS in order to make her his puppet instead of being his subordinate. In short, he serves his own interests and/or those of CIA and Mossad, not the interests of his country.

Or could it be that Mossad had some sort of hold over Dar? Otherwise it's difficult to understand that he let Mossad overrule him in the US soil and let them have Javadi.  Whatever Javadi has made (and I can't forget that he murdered his ex-wife), if one betrays defectors, one can't get them in the future.   

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On ‎20‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 5:16 AM, mjc570 said:

I was surprised to see how gullible the PE is - she really does believe the last person to talk to her.  I was convinced that she was much more canny than that, given how she had extricated herself from that "protective custody," but apparently she did believe Dar (and Saul and Carrie). 

I think it was supposed to show that PE was no pacifist regardless of everything but did care of the security of her country as well as could change her opinions on the basis to the facts, apart of liking or not liking persons that presented them.

Only, it happened too swiftly. After the end of last episode, she accpeted to meet Saul and Carrie curiously easily.    

On ‎20‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 8:05 AM, vesperholly said:

Worse - Fara was stabbed by Haqqani in the US Embassy invasion/hostage situation in Pakistan, not the bombing of the CIA building (S2). She died in Max's arms :( :( :(

And Max blamed Carrie for not once. He seems to have forgiven her now for using people.

I must confess that I could hardly believe my eyes when the politician who had become CIA chief gave the terrorist the list of local agents in the whole country in order to save the hostages. He had no guts for the job.  

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It puzzles me why the PE's strategy was to bring Dar to the court. Wouldn't she have a right to fire him after 20 January - and even now, she could have gone to the President with the evidence.

Before all, I would have thought that PE's first priority would be learn who Dar's allies are or even if he has been followed someone's orders. 

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