S06.E06: Full Disclosure 2017.03.19

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Serious legal repercussions? I have no idea what you mean. The obligation to notify the father of pregnancy/childbirth, if there is indeed any such obligation, is moral or ethical, not legal, as far as I'm aware. There are very good reasons for that, such as protecting women who are hiding their pregnancies from abusive exes.

This might be why it would be a good idea for Hannah to hear unsolicited advice on the issue.  A father has legal rights with regard to his child.  A mother who interferes with those rights can find herself losing custody, have restrictions put on her interactions with her child or even find herself barred from seeing her child should the situation be serious enough.  And obviously, Hannah is not hiding a pregnancy from an abusive ex.         

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I'm happy for Hannah, and I hope the show ends with just her and her baby. Hannah is messy all around but I find her to be kind and she really wants her baby, and reminded Elijah that she had told him that she always wanted to be a mother. I can't take a lot of the gross behavior she exhibits but even through that I find her to be a kind person, who wants to love and is welcoming. There are horrific human beings that, that baby could be born to and Hannah isn't one of them. She  just needs some support and she and that baby will be alright.

I don't want to see her get back with Adam and I believe I heard Lena say in interviews that the finale will not be some pretty box, bow wrapped ending. So I can't see her with the baby and Adam makes three and I'm over Adam in Hannah's life. Go right ahead and deal with your new "love." I also want Jessa pretty much out of her life for good as well. At one time I thought she really couldn't help herself and she fell for Adam, and I was OK, I don't like it, but...hey, it happens.  I still don't blame Hannah for cutting her off, but moving on. However, now, watching her while making that movie, she seemed spiteful. That was pure jealousy, which comes from her insecurity of course. She seriously needed to prove to herself that Adam never loved Hannah? Really? Why do that? Why couldn't he have loved Hannah and now he loves you. You can have more than one love in a lifetime. Jessa is annoying, girl get help. 

By the way, none of these women are breathtakingly beautiful either. They aren't major head turners, they can look pretty IMO, but they look like regular pretty girls to me and Marnie doesn't always look that pretty, she's just attractive in the face somewhat. 

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14 hours ago, DianeDobbler said:

I agree that pseudo Hannah is more interesting, and I can buy certain guys being attracted to her more than I could the original. It might be as shallow as her having a better body, but I also think she is just plain more interesting in that world. However, the real Hannah I have gotten used to. It's her quality of "you always miss 100% of the shots you don't take". I've learned something watching her, because the long game of her character I think shows something true about life that a lot of people think ISN'T true. Usually people who do the things she does, who are not full on crazy, have something that insulates them from consequences for awhile, but Hannah doesn't seem to. She shouldn't be able to do and get away with the things she does (such as having hot boyfriends). But I've come to believe in it because the character never stops herself, her character follows her own will. That's different enough to get her to places where her looks and even her personality might not.

 I compared some of Jessa's crazy/reckless stuff with some of Hannah's. I don't think anybody doubted that Jessa could hook up with a guy she met in a bar (early in the show's run, when the character was pregnant) and have sex in the john, but they'd doubt it about Hannah. With Hannah, because she has nothing to protect her or help her get away with what she does, I think the audience keeps thinking "You CAN'T do that" or "You can't get away with that!" I think Lena Dunham once remarked on some of the out there things that Hannah does, but also mentioned she thinks that might be how Hannah ends up getting somewhere in the end, and I agree. Hannah can be irresponsible and get sidetracked, but it's never out of "I can't" or "I don't measure up here." Even when every other person besides herself would probably think she can't and doesn't. Even when the actual experience she's having tells her she can't or isn't measuring up.

 Hannah is always playing out of her league, is undeterred and insensitive to any negating signals, and I think in the end she will wind up in a sort of "Shoot for the moon, you might land among the stars" situation. Pseudo Hannah has a charm that real Hannah doesn't, but real Hannah has a force of will about herself that I think is pretty rare, even though so many times, you think surely now she'll be humiliated. The thing is, she's not. That is what's special about her.

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I agree with a lot of what you are saying.  However, it saddens me in 2017 that just the idea of a perfectly attractive, but ordinary looking girl, being the center of attention on a t.v. show so revolutionary.  Everyone from Woody Allen forward has often cast a fairly nice looking woman with an odd looking man and no one blinks an eye.  It's the cliché of men have something to offer, besides their looks, but women have to met a base line standard of attractiveness to be considered worthy.

I recently attended a wedding where a grooms man was giving a toast to the new couple.  In his toast all he could say was how "hot" the bride was and how the groom (which he described as a geeky engineer) was lucky to be marrying such a "hot" girl.

The groom was indeed an engineer, but far from geeky...actually fairly good looking by most standards.  The bride, I kid you not, look like a blonde version of Hannah.  I purposefully said Hannah not Lena, who can look quite glamorous.

It was not that I did not think the bride was attractive (far from it), but it bothered me that the groomsman could not think of any other way to compliment her, beyond her looks.  He did say other things, but it was obvious that was the quality he thought was most important.  It is like a man is supposed to always go for the best looking woman he can get and her looks are a compliment to him.

It is true that Jessa does probably get away with many things in life, because she is a pretty blonde white woman.  However, I really do not get her appeal, even though I know physically her look is much prized in our society.

She has become the biggest asshat in the world, but in high school, Marnie is the type of girl I would want to be like.  I bet you in she was the pretty put together girl that got excellent grades and was popular, though more for her looks then personality.

Does anyone find it odd, that we sometimes have people comment on how hot Jessa is on the show , but rarely do we hear these things about Marnie in the show world...not that it matter.

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34 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

This might be why it would be a good idea for Hannah to hear unsolicited advice on the issue.  A father has legal rights with regard to his child. 

A father can establish legal rights with regard to his child...but it's his responsibility to establish those rights, particularly in a one-night stand situation like this where paternity is not presumed. As it is, he may not even be the father as far as the law is concerned, and that's his problem. Not the mother's. If the father can't be bothered to inform himself as to having fathered a child after having unprotected sex and not bothering to contact the mother after, and then takes steps so that the court will recognize him as the child's father (since they certainly won't assume it), that's on him. Courts will have little sympathy for such a person, and rightly so.

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A mother who interferes with those rights can find herself losing custody

Except this father hasn't established any rights, and nor will he unless he takes active steps to assert those rights (such as requesting that a paternity test be ordered to establish paternity), which he has not. So actually Hannah isn't interfering with any of his rights, since he has none at this point.

I also dispute your claim that a "mother who interferes with [parental] rights can find herself losing custody." Not really. It is true that a mother who interferes with an existing access arrangement in a pervasive manner or on an ongoing basis or who engages in parental alienation with an existing, established parental caregiver (shit-talking the other parent to poison the relationship), can find herself punished by the courts, under certain extreme circumstances, but this is not that situation. A mother not telling her babydaddy, who is not even a "parent" until a court makes that determination, doesn't qualify.

As for your suggestion that Hannah could find herself losing custody, that is ridiculous. Custody as determined by the courts is only about the best interests of the child, not about the hurt feelings of the father...especially fathers who couldn't be bothered to investigate whether or not they'd fathered a child after having unprotected sex during a one-night stand, i.e. fathers who had no relationship with the mother. If a father who fathered a child during a single night of unprotected sex while he was in a relationship comes charging into court years down the line, outraged that he was never told by the mother and demanding that she be immediately stripped of custody for her horrible crime despite the mother having been the primary caregiver for X number of years and the only parent the child had ever known, he'd get laughed out of court. For real. 

I'm sure certain factions--"men's rights" advocates, for one--would love to punish women who don't tell fathers about the existence of their children through stripping them of custody of their children, but fortunately, the courts care first and foremost about the welfare of children, not about the hurt feelings of careless babydaddies. 

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This might be why it would be a good idea for Hannah to hear unsolicited advice on the issue. 

Well, in this case at least, your idea of "unsolicited advice" about legal rights would be 100% wrong, for the reasons I have said. You've provided an excellent example of why unsolicited advice is terrible: people giving it rarely know what they're talking about.

Edited by Eyes High.

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A father has legal rights with regard to his child...but it's his responsibility to establish those rights, particularly in a one-night stand situation like this where paternity is not presumed. That's his problem. Not the mother's. If the father can't be bothered to inform himself as to having fathered a child after having unprotected sex and not bothering to contact the mother after, that's on him. Courts will have little sympathy.

That's not entirely correct, particularly in situations where the mother took steps to hide the pregnancy from the father.  That's why I would never advise a person to hide the fact they are pregnant from the father of the baby, unless there was some extraordinary circumstance.     

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As for your suggestion that Hannah could find herself losing custody, that is ridiculous. Custody as determined by the courts is only about the best interests of the child, not about the hurt feelings of the father...especially fathers who couldn't be bothered to investigate whether or not they'd fathered a child after having unprotected sex during a one-night stand. If a father who fathered a child during a single night of unprotected sex while he was in another relationship comes charging into court years down the line, outraged that he was never told by the mother and demanding that she be immediately stripped of custody for her horrible crime despite the mother having been the primary caregiver for X number of years and the only parent the child had ever known, he'd get laughed out of court. For real.

I didn't actually describe a scenario like that, or make any such claim.  That's just a straw man.   I said her actions could lead to legal repercussions, including, up to, losing custody.  Nothing you've said actually disputes that. 

Edited by txhorns79.

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14 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I didn't actually describe a scenario like that, or make any such claim.  That's just a straw man.   I said her actions could lead to legal repercussions, including up to losing custody.  Nothing you've said actually disputes that. 

No, I specifically said her actions could not lead to losing custody, as they do not fall under the category of actions that may attract sanction by the court, which I described (interfering with an existing access arrangement with a parent, parental alienation). You suggested that she risked being punished by the court or even losing custody for not telling him about the pregnancy, which is frankly a ludicrous argument given the circumstances.

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That's not entirely correct, particularly in situations where the mother took steps to hide the pregnancy from the father. 

Not telling the father when he can't be bothered to investigate whether he fathered the child is not the same thing as hiding, and there's no suggestion that Hannah is hiding the pregnancy. Lying about it if asked by the father may be something else, since that could be construed as thwarting his good faith attempts to ascertain paternity and denying his attempts to seek access, but Hannah never expected to be contacted by him again and never indicated that she planned on lying to him, so that doesn't apply.

Even if she had deliberately lied and concealed the pregnancy from him, it's true that courts are pretty lenient towards mothers in such circumstances, because of the whole best interests of the child/primary caregiver thing. The idea that courts will swoop in and strip custody from mothers who lie to babydaddies about their pregnancies because they lied--since "fathers have rights!!!"--is nothing more than a misogynist fantasy. It's not about fathers' hurt feelings; it's about the children. Any lawyer who blows smoke up a father's ass about how he can go back to court years after and get custody of a child who's the product of a one-night stand is negligent.

As I said, there is no legal obligation on the mother to notify the father, and the onus is on the father to ascertain and take steps to assert paternity. 

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That's why I would never advise a person to hide the fact they are pregnant from the father of the baby, unless there was some extraordinary circumstances.  

Not taking steps to contact someone who's no longer in the mother's life and whom she reasonably expects never to see again is not the same thing as actively concealing a pregnancy from someone with whom she has an existing relationship. That's a very straightforward distinction. Even in the latter case, the courts would cut women slack if the issue is coming up years down the road.

Edited by Eyes High.

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As I said, there is no legal obligation on the mother to notify the father, and the onus is on the father to ascertain and take steps to assert paternity. 

As I said, that's not entirely correct.  If you have a case you are thinking of, heard by the Court of Appeals or the lower courts in New York, I'm glad to take a look.     

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You suggested that she risked being punished by the court or even losing custody for not telling him about the pregnancy, which is a ludicrous argument.

That's not actually ludicrous.  I'm not sure why you would think that. 

Edited by txhorns79.

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17 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

As I said, that's not entirely correct.  If you have a case you are thinking of, heard by the Court of Appeals or the lower courts in New York, I'm glad to take a look.     

You haven't been able to cite any authority for your claim that the mother has a legal obligation to notify the father despite insisting this is the case, so the obligation to find a cite falls on you. 

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That's not actually ludicrous.  I'm not sure why you would think that.

Well, again, if you can produce a court decision where a woman, years after the birth of a product of a one-night stand, was stripped of custody solely because she had omitted to tell the father about the pregnancy, by all means go ahead. Otherwise? Yeah, it's ludicrous.

However, if we're going to continue this, we should go to DMs, since it's getting off-topic by this point.

Edited by Eyes High.

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3 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

I don't want to see her get back with Adam and I believe I heard Lena say in interviews that the finale will not be some pretty box, bow wrapped ending. So I can't see her with the baby and Adam makes three and I'm over Adam in Hannah's life. 

I can't see that ending for his show either, and I don't think that's where it's headed. I do think it is entirely in character for Adam to think about wanting her back again now that he knows she's really moving on in a big way, and also that she's potentially in a position to need help and support again. That doesn't mean Hannah wants him back, especially after he's been in a serious relationship with her friend. I didn't see any longing or conflicted feelings from her in that scene on the sidewalk; she seems done with him. 

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43 minutes ago, stagmania said:

I can't see that ending for his show either, and I don't think that's where it's headed. I do think it is entirely in character for Adam to think about wanting her back again now that he knows she's really moving on in a big way, and also that she's potentially in a position to need help and support again. That doesn't mean Hannah wants him back, especially after he's been in a serious relationship with her friend. I didn't see any longing or conflicted feelings from her in that scene on the sidewalk; she seems done with him. 

... but they did follow that up with her watching the movie and looking like she felt some way about it. What way remains to be seen.

(I'm on the fence about Hannah/Adam. I've liked and loathed them as a couple.)

Four episodes left, it's anyone's game.

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32 minutes ago, kieyra said:

(I'm on the fence about Hannah/Adam. I've liked and loathed them as a couple.)

I'm 60/40 on loathing. I hated the way their relationship started and ended, but in-between I do think they had genuine love for each other. Their dynamic was never healthy though, and I'm not sure they both have grown enough to be able to avoid falling into those patterns again. I did cheer when Hannah refused to get back together with him after Sample's birth, and while I could *understand* if they get back together at the end, I'm not at all confident that they'll have a "happily every after".

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I am old and gray now but in my youth I had a couple relationships that were like those styrofoam packing peanuts that stick to your clothes. It took a long time to disentangle myself. It was a merry-go-round. We would break it off, get back together, then immediately regret it and split up again. Then I'd see him with some other girl and immediately HAVE to get him back. Which would last a week. Then for some reason a year later we'd hook up again. It went on like that for years.

In spite of what I thought at the time, I can look back now and see that there really was nothing special or magical or even meaningful about the relationships that caused us to keep boomeranging back to each other. The relationship was a habit. It was predictable. Striking out with the new lovers was hard on my ego, and going back to the old lover was comforting. Under the influence of romantic pop music, I got it all muddled with ideas of true love or "we were meant for each other" -- but that wasn't it at all. It just took a while for us to kick ourselves loose from that sticky-ness. But eventually we did. We moved on and grew up. We found other, new lovers. Life goes on. Adam and Hannah seem a lot like that to me. I'd be disappointed if Lena Dunham gives us a typical happy ending. Girls is not Love Actually. 

Edited by lidarose9.

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qtpye, I agree that it's sad how such a fuss is made over an ordinary looking girl as the leading lady of a TV show, and how the hotness of her leading men is scrutinized. But I did that myself. I was all "are you kidding me?" over Adam/Hannah, and Hannah/Patrick Wilson.

I never see, in real life, the disparity in attractiveness levels between Hannah and her boyfriends. However, one guy wrote from a guy's point of view how Hannah/the Patrick Wilson character was plausible under the circumstances, and it also made me look at my own observations, and how far absolute obliviousness, but a driven quality, can take someone. Believe me, the "others" (characters on the show) who criticize and bash Hannah, are not nearly as invested in keeping her down as Hannah is invested in keeping herself moving forward, in seizing opportunities, or in recognizing an opportunity that isn't even one, but that she makes into one. That gives Hannah the advantage. And for every opportunity she finds, let's not forget how much rejection she tramples over, much of it caused by herself, but still. How many of us could handle some of the rejection Hannah faces simply by behaving in the same entitled way a good looking person might behave? Or a narcissistic dude might act? Me, I'm always inclined to say, but Hannah. You're not a good-looking person. Or, you're not a narcissistic dude. But I underrate that quality of determination and will that in real life, I acknowledge carries people further, in my experience. Hannah has taken the rejection, humiliation, and embarrassment that I think would make a ton of people quail. It really is a signifying characteristic of successful people. You know the old trope of "I'm a fraud, and people will find out?" That was Hannah's reality as a character from day one, as far as the audience was concerned, and also as a person from day one, within the fictitious universe of Girls, but she is not the sort of person who worries about people thinking she's a joke. She worries more about what she wants. A whole lot of people think about many other things other than that.

I just don't think Marnie is hot. I think she's way more a girl's idea of a hot girl than a guy's. What does she lack to be a guy's idea of a hot girl? Money. If she were a trust fund baby or a rich kid, she'd be right in there, like Allison Williams herself. Without that back-up, she's not Jessa, and most ordinary guys won't be falling over themselves for her. I think there's a whole strata of NON hot guys  (like Ray, I guess) who would show up for her, but as for the guys she's aiming for ? All she has are looks that every single girl aiming for the same guys already has and then some, and that plus other advantages Marnie lacks. Marnie is not looking for deep, soulful guys. She's looking for a successful, hot guy in the arts on track to be successful. For guys like that, Marnie is a baseline.

Edited by DianeDobbler.

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1 hour ago, DianeDobbler said:

qtpye, I agree that it's sad how such a fuss is made over an ordinary looking girl as the leading lady of a TV show, and how the hotness of her leading men is scrutinized. But I did that myself. I was all "are you kidding me?" over Adam/Hannah, and Hannah/Patrick Wilson.

I never see, in real life, the disparity in attractiveness levels between Hannah and her boyfriends. However, one guy wrote from a guy's point of view how Hannah/the Patrick Wilson character was plausible under the circumstances, and it also made me look at my own observations, and how far absolute obliviousness, but a driven quality, can take someone. Believe me, the "others" (characters on the show) who criticize and bash Hannah, are not nearly as invested in keeping her down as Hannah is invested in keeping herself moving forward, in seizing opportunities, or in recognizing an opportunity that isn't even one, but that she makes into one. That gives Hannah the advantage. And for every opportunity she finds, let's not forget how much rejection she tramples over, much of it caused by herself, but still. How many of us could handle some of the rejection Hannah faces simply by behaving in the same entitled way a good looking person might behave? Or a narcissistic dude might act? Me, I'm always inclined to say, but Hannah. You're not a good-looking person. Or, you're not a narcissistic dude. But I underrate that quality of determination and will that in real life, I acknowledge carries people further, in my experience. Hannah has taken the rejection, humiliation, and embarrassment that I think would make a ton of people quail. It really is a signifying characteristic of successful people. You know the old trope of "I'm a fraud, and people will find out?" That was Hannah's reality as a character from day one, as far as the audience was concerned, and also as a person from day one, within the fictitious universe of Girls, but she is not the sort of person who worries about people thinking she's a joke. She worries more about what she wants. A whole lot of people think about many other things other than that.

I just don't think Marnie is hot. I think she's way more a girl's idea of a hot girl than a guy's. What does she lack to be a guy's idea of a hot girl? Money. If she were a trust fund baby or a rich kid, she'd be right in there, like Allison Williams herself. Without that back-up, she's not Jessa, and most ordinary guys won't be falling over themselves for her. I think there's a whole strata of NON hot guys  (like Ray, I guess) who would show up for her, but as for the guys she's aiming for ? All she has are looks that every single girl aiming for the same guys already has and then some, and that plus other advantages Marnie lacks. Marnie is not looking for deep, soulful guys. She's looking for a successful, hot guy in the arts on track to be successful. For guys like that, Marnie is a baseline.

"Hotness" is so subjective. I see people all the time that other people label as attractive and to me they are just meh. OK. Not bad looking but just ordinary nice-looking people. Most people are like that. It means nothing. In spite of all the advertising to the contrary, I really do believe what really attracts people meaningfully is not your outside self. Yes, if you have a giant wart on your nose or curly hair growing out of your ears, you will put people off. But attraction is not logical. Brad Pitt does absolutely nothing for me. If I met him in person and he was funny or charming, I would start finding him attractive. 

As to Marnie. Marnie has never liked sex. The very first scene in the very first episode is Marnie trying to avoid sex with Charlie. The ONLY time Marnie really got hot for a guy was that total dick at that art gallery opening, out on some bridge or something, propositioned her. It was about his power. 

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I agree that Jessa was all about her own needs and feelings when she came to Hanna. She's probably used to people praising her and begging her to be around them, with Shoshanna and Adam both being examples in earlier seasons. Which makes me think: Is she seeking Hanna only because Shoshanna clearly cut her loose and Adam flat out disagreed with her regarding the direction of the film (and therefore, Hanna's impact in his life)? 

Jessa hasn't ever been shown as a needy person, but perhaps she is, just not in a way we expect needy to be portrayed. At this point, she seems to need an audience who admires and roots for her, and the three people she's supposed to be closest to (Shoshanna, Adam, Hanna) seem to have no time or energy to do that. They are all busy with their own stories of what their lives are and should be. She's no longer a cool someone to look up to.

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8 hours ago, DianeDobbler said:

Marnie lacks. Marnie is not looking for deep, soulful guys. She's looking for a successful, hot guy in the arts on track to be successful. For guys like that, Marnie is a baseline.

 

7 hours ago, lidarose9 said:

As to Marnie. Marnie has never liked sex. The very first scene in the very first episode is Marnie trying to avoid sex with Charlie. The ONLY time Marnie really got hot for a guy was that total dick at that art gallery opening, out on some bridge or something, propositioned her. It was about his power. 

Both of you are so right about Marnie's intentions.  I guess I was confused, because I was believing in stereotypes that artsy girls would be more "deep" and not care about that stuff.  Sort of how Hannah gave up a lucrative job in advertising, because she thought it would interfere with her "real writing"  I guess there are opportunists in every field.

What I thought was funny, was how Marnie was blaming her mother's neediness to please a men for jumping into a disastrous marriage.  Marnie is not a girl hung up on pleasing the guy in her life.  Marnie is a user.  She seeks guys that can give her something she needs and really does not care about what they want.  She thought hooking up with Desi would jump start her career as a singer.  She only wanted to really be with Charlie after he created an incredibly successful app.  She was with Ray, because he provided her with the devotion and adoration she needs to boost her ego.  Marnie never cared anything about him or his interests.   That was why she was so lost when she saw the fun friendly connection Ray had with Shosh.  It never occurs to Marnie to be interested in a guy, beyond what he can do for her.

Jessa is the type of girl that men and women fall in love with.  When I say women fall in love with Jessa, I mean in a non sexual way.  I remember how Hannah almost worshipped the ground she walked on, though Jessa would often treat Hannah with contempt and disgust.

Jessa is used to being a power player in all her relationships, at least in the beginning.  Then after a while, the person begins to realize that Jessa is really not a great person and their infatuation fades.  This is almost exactly what happened with her marriage, Shosh, and Hannah.  Jessa prides herself on being a toxic force in the life of anyone who cares for her, but is surprised when they want to remove her from their life for the very same reason.

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8 hours ago, qtpye said:

 

Both of you are so right about Marnie's intentions.  I guess I was confused, because I was believing in stereotypes that artsy girls would be more "deep" and not care about that stuff.  Sort of how Hannah gave up a lucrative job in advertising, because she thought it would interfere with her "real writing"  I guess there are opportunists in every field.

What I thought was funny, was how Marnie was blaming her mother's neediness to please a men for jumping into a disastrous marriage.  Marnie is not a girl hung up on pleasing the guy in her life.  Marnie is a user.  She seeks guys that can give her something she needs and really does not care about what they want.  She thought hooking up with Desi would jump start her career as a singer.  She only wanted to really be with Charlie after he created an incredibly successful app.  She was with Ray, because he provided her with the devotion and adoration she needs to boost her ego.  Marnie never cared anything about him or his interests.   That was why she was so lost when she saw the fun friendly connection Ray had with Shosh.  It never occurs to Marnie to be interested in a guy, beyond what he can do for her.

Jessa is the type of girl that men and women fall in love with.  When I say women fall in love with Jessa, I mean in a non sexual way.  I remember how Hannah almost worshipped the ground she walked on, though Jessa would often treat Hannah with contempt and disgust.

Jessa is used to being a power player in all her relationships, at least in the beginning.  Then after a while, the person begins to realize that Jessa is really not a great person and their infatuation fades.  This is almost exactly what happened with her marriage, Shosh, and Hannah.  Jessa prides herself on being a toxic force in the life of anyone who cares for her, but is surprised when they want to remove her from their life for the very same reason.

Also let's not forget about Jessas friend who pretended to die so she can avoid having Jessa in her life. And even if Marnie is a terrible person, she has had Jessas number from the pilot. I remember her telling Hannah that Jessa being Jessa would come back into their lives cause a scene and take down Hannah and then leave and Hannah would be all broken hearted. And that did happen. In season 2. Jessa left Hannah at her fathers house with a note.

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On 3/21/2017 at 4:07 PM, DianeDobbler said:

Just OT - I saw a short interview with Lola Kirke, Jemima Kirke's actress sister. She's brunette, but there is a definite family resemblance. However her accent is much more American, and her energy is completely different. She played Greta in Gone Girl.

She's one of the leads in Mozart in the Jungle,  all three series so far.  The accent thing is weird.  I read something about Lola making the choice to favor the American accent.  Who knows.  I've only seen Lola in MinJ, and Jemima in Girls, so it could just be that I find Lola far more tolerable simply based upon the characters they portray.  It would be interesting to see them acting in a variety of parts.

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3 hours ago, ichbin said:

She's one of the leads in Mozart in the Jungle,  all three series so far.  The accent thing is weird.  I read something about Lola making the choice to favor the American accent.  Who knows.  I've only seen Lola in MinJ, and Jemima in Girls, so it could just be that I find Lola far more tolerable simply based upon the characters they portray.  It would be interesting to see them acting in a variety of parts.

I was wondering about the accent as well, but I think Lola is 4-5 years younger than Jemima and spent less time living in England. It's the same with Kelly and Jack Osbourne. 

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I've seen Lola in Mistress America, and she has a lispy, decidedly American accent there. I'm inclined to believe it's her natural accent. In real life Jemima's British accent isn't as pronounced as Jessa's. 

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On ‎3‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 9:54 PM, DianeDobbler said:

Shoshanna and Ray were serious. They were in love. There was ultimately, at the time, too much of an age and experience gap, but the connection was genuine. I believe he was her first sexual experience (at least to completion). There was also the conversation the two of them had in bed while Marnie was in the room, talking to Marnie about what jobs might be available to her because of her looks. "Not MODEL, but something." I think if you've stood in a bedroom where your friend and her boyfriend are in bed together talking to you, it adds another layer of "Don't sleep with that guy after your friend breaks up with him."

 

I think you are misremembering? Shosh and Ray were never some great love. they were barely a blip. He took her virginity in an awkward weird sex scene and Shosh pretty much dumped him after that because -- yes. he was too old and stodgy for her. Then she started fucking around. I remember she all of a sudden wanted him back but Ray had moved on by then.

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So what? Jessa is not some passive victim of Adam's lust. Adam didn't hold Jessa down and rape her. She chose not only to act on her attraction to Adam but to lie to Hannah about it. Nor was Adam claiming at the time to be Hannah's friend.

I'm well aware of all that.

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As for what Hannah told Jessa, Jessa deserved it for showing up without an invitation at Hannah's place, trying to make her feel bad about not telling Jessa about her pregnancy, when Jessa had had no contact with Hannah for months except to beg her permission to make their shitty movie. Hannah rightly pointed out that she didn't tell Jessa for a reason, which Jessa should be smart enough to figure out for herself ("Why didn't you call me?"/"Do I

really have to answer that question for you, Jessa?"), that Jessa's "dear friend" line is garbage, and that Jessa should have thought about why Hannah didn't tell her before coming over in the first place. "How are you going to be a therapist if you can't figure out what's going in your own life, which is that I didn't tell you for a reason, which is that I don't care about your feelings because I don't care about you anymore, Jessa?"

Which was gratuitously mean and on some level bullshit because she let Jessa in anyway. And I guess I'm one of those people who doesn't see the grave offense in dating someone your friend has dated and moved on from. Jessa's been conflicted about her and Adam since they've been together, which I wish we could've seen more of because I think that's a real thing. I think her and Adam do have some weird connection, but I also think Jessa genuinely cares about Hannah. Jessa herself is a bit of a shit show, but...so is Adam and so is Hannah.

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Harsh? No. Jessa hadn't gotten the message that Hannah's lack of contact was sending, or was ignoring it, so Hannah was forced to spell it out for her. Jessa forced her to say things that Jessa didn't want to hear, but that's on Jessa, not Hannah. Jessa showing up at Hannah's apartment to whine about how she found out about the pregnancy was completely out of line. If Jessa had started out with a sincere apology, that would be one thing, but instead she just tried to guilt trip Hannah over not telling her about the pregnancy, and, when that manipulation didn't work, she went to the "dear friend" line, smoothly glossing over everything else with a "Despite everything that happened." Yes, Hannah shut her down with a quickness, but she had to or else endure Jessa's attempts to manipulate and bullshit her way into having Hannah apologize to her. Hannah wasn't having any of Jessa's bullshit, and it was glorious.

Yeah, I disagree. Like Hannah's super easy to be friends or get along with. I don't necessarily think Jessa's a great friend, but Hannah needs all the people who Get Her that she can find. Because she has a bad habit of not even keeping friends who have no interest in her exes.

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And then when Hannah makes these very reasonable points, Jessa makes this big show of sighing and rolling her eyes, like Hannah is being the unreasonable one for wanting nothing more to do with Jessa. It's an attempt again to put Hannah in the position of apologizing, but Hannah admirably refuses to take the bait. Nor does she get into a dramatic argument when Jessa starts shouting about "erasing" people, as Jessa was probably hoping to pick a fight; her "I don't care anymore" was the perfect way to deflate Jessa's narcissism, and it's no worse than Jessa deserved for showing up at Hannah's apartment unprompted to berate Hannah for not telling her about the pregnancy.

I think Jessa's point for showing up was that, despite what happened between her and Hannah and Adam, she felt hurt because she expected Hannah to know she still cares about her, which again isn't unreasonable given how conflicted Jessa has been at times over her and Adam's relationship. They weren't on speaking terms because of what happened, but that didn't mean Jessa stopped caring about her as a friend. In fact, it seemed obvious to me she tried to distance herself from Hannah because she didn't want to hurt her by going out with Adam. And I don't know, it's hard for me to side with Hannah because it seems to me that her entire reason for being upset is because of understandable yet slightly misplaced possessiveness with Adam. Hannah never got over Adam...even though he got over her. I think she kind of blames Jessa for that. It's not like Jessa came in between her and Adam, which was my point earlier. He chased her.

While they are trying to worm their way back into Hannah's life, it's not really about her, though. Adam wants to submit his film to festivals and to demonstrate that he still has control over Hannah, by insisting that this movie will liberate her from all the baggage of their dramatic relationship. Jessa wants back into Hannah's life because her ego can't bear the idea that Hannah is "erasing" her or that Jessa is in the wrong (which is why she leads off their conversation by trying to guilt-trip Hannah about not telling her, trying to put Hannah in the position of having to apologize). It's all about them and their egos, not about their love for her.

If Adam and Jessa really cared for Hannah at all, they would stay away until and unless Hannah initiated contact. They've now shown total disrespect for her boundaries--showing up at her apartment unsolicited--on three separate occasions.

No offense, but you're laying it on a little thick with the alleged grievance to Hannah. Adam and Jessa are weird. Jessa still cares about Hannah, as crazy as that may be. I think the show is making them act a bit out of character. Jessa being desperate to be Hannah's friend is one thing, but I also think Jessa's a bit more independent than that. Adam needing her to see the movie is weird, too, and kind of out of character given that he is, or has shown himself to be at times, over her.

Yes, how dare a woman who looks like Lena Dunham portray a character written as loved or desired by others? The

nerve of that woman. How dare she?

Yeah, especially when Hannah Horvath is a stubborn, awkward, immature pain in the ass. IRL the only people who put so much of themselves on the line for people like that are your parents and/or your kids, because they're kind of stuck with you. Everybody else usually will realize that there's more to life than trying to crack the code that is you (the general you).

Speaking of Carrie, I also recall haters of Sex and the City bitching about Carrie getting all these hot men to vie for her affections, because Sarah Jessica Parker was supposedly so utterly repulsive that that would never ever happen. Plus ca change and all that.

That was on a shallow note because SJP, to some people, isn't an attractive woman. I happen to think she looked quite fetching in her prime -- awesome body -- and to her credit, Carrie was at least fun and generally kind and well-meaning. She definitely had her flaws, but I was never confused why one of the SaTC dudes would be attracted to her. Hannah? Sheeeee-it. She was overachieving with Adam, and him being yoked aside, he's no prize pig himself.

Edited by 27bored.

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4 hours ago, taanja said:

I think you are misremembering? Shosh and Ray were never some great love. they were barely a blip. He took her virginity in an awkward weird sex scene and Shosh pretty much dumped him after that because -- yes. he was too old and stodgy for her. Then she started fucking around. I remember she all of a sudden wanted him back but Ray had moved on by then.

Shosh and Ray seem to make better friends than mates.

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Taanja, I am not misremembering. Soshanna did not dump Ray after he took her virginity. 

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On 3/22/2017 at 10:50 AM, Eyes High said:

Serious legal repercussions? I have no idea what you mean. The obligation to notify the father of pregnancy/childbirth, if there is indeed any such obligation, is moral or ethical, not legal, as far as I'm aware. There are very good reasons for that, such as protecting women who are hiding their pregnancies from abusive exes.

I agree with you about the legal aspect (with the caveat that if Hannah were ever to go on public assistance, the state will aggressively try to determine who the father is, including conducting DNA tests, if New York is anything like my state of Missouri). But I agree with Hanna's father's boyfriend about the moral/ethical aspects, and I think the law should be changed to reflect that.  In cases of abuse where there are restraining orders and such, special arrangements could be made with a judge. Even then, there should be the option for the father of supervised visitation on neutral ground.

Or else the law should be changed the other way, so that a woman cannot hit up a one-night stand "sperm donor" for 18 to 21 years of child support if she decides to.  One way or the other, please.

ETA: @DianeDobbler @taanja, is it just me, or is there something kind of icky about describing it as "taking her virginity"?

Edited by SlackerInc.

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I am really starting to wonder what will happen to these characters since it all seems so up in the air for each of them. 

Even though I gathered that Hannah and marnie were supposed to be the main "main" characters, Jessa was someone that Hannah never fought with and practically worshipped. Hannah and Marnie were always the ones who were squabbling over stupid crap because of how different they were. By the way, Marnie did sleep with Elijah, Hannah's ex. She also slept with Ray, Shoshanas ex. I guess if it wasn't Jessa hooking up with Adam it would have been Marnie for sure, telling him "even though I hated you for so long, I guess it's been u all along" and then write some folksy song about it. 

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17 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

is it just me, or is there something kind of icky about describing it as "taking her virginity"?

The entire concept of "virginity" is icky.

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I agree with you about the legal aspect (with the caveat that if Hannah were ever to go on public assistance, the state will aggressively try to determine who the father is, including conducting DNA tests, if New York is anything like my state of Missouri). But I agree with Hanna's father's boyfriend about the moral/ethical aspects, and I think the law should be changed to reflect that.  In cases of abuse where there are restraining orders and such, special arrangements could be made with a judge. Even then, there should be the option for the father of supervised visitation on neutral ground.

Or else the law should be changed the other way, so that a woman cannot hit up a one-night stand "sperm donor" for 18 to 21 years of child support if she decides to.  One way or the other, please.

I don't think there will ever be a paternity law that works for everyone. How would the state even go about enforcing it? And whatever the laws are, I really hope the legal aspect is not brought into this show. I hate law shows.

Edited by chocolatine.

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So I assume you meant to say "...is not brought into this show"?

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8 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

So I assume you meant to say "...is not brought into this show"?

Of course! It's fixed now.

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On ‎3‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 9:45 PM, SlackerInc said:

ETA: @DianeDobbler @taanja, is it just me, or is there something kind of icky about describing it as "taking her virginity"?

I guess it is better then saying "She gave him her flower". (Friends reference).

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