S06.E06: Full Disclosure 2017.03.19

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Serious legal repercussions? I have no idea what you mean. The obligation to notify the father of pregnancy/childbirth, if there is indeed any such obligation, is moral or ethical, not legal, as far as I'm aware. There are very good reasons for that, such as protecting women who are hiding their pregnancies from abusive exes.

This might be why it would be a good idea for Hannah to hear unsolicited advice on the issue.  A father has legal rights with regard to his child.  A mother who interferes with those rights can find herself losing custody, have restrictions put on her interactions with her child or even find herself barred from seeing her child should the situation be serious enough.  And obviously, Hannah is not hiding a pregnancy from an abusive ex.         

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I'm happy for Hannah, and I hope the show ends with just her and her baby. Hannah is messy all around but I find her to be kind and she really wants her baby, and reminded Elijah that she had told him that she always wanted to be a mother. I can't take a lot of the gross behavior she exhibits but even through that I find her to be a kind person, who wants to love and is welcoming. There are horrific human beings that, that baby could be born to and Hannah isn't one of them. She  just needs some support and she and that baby will be alright.

I don't want to see her get back with Adam and I believe I heard Lena say in interviews that the finale will not be some pretty box, bow wrapped ending. So I can't see her with the baby and Adam makes three and I'm over Adam in Hannah's life. Go right ahead and deal with your new "love." I also want Jessa pretty much out of her life for good as well. At one time I thought she really couldn't help herself and she fell for Adam, and I was OK, I don't like it, but...hey, it happens.  I still don't blame Hannah for cutting her off, but moving on. However, now, watching her while making that movie, she seemed spiteful. That was pure jealousy, which comes from her insecurity of course. She seriously needed to prove to herself that Adam never loved Hannah? Really? Why do that? Why couldn't he have loved Hannah and now he loves you. You can have more than one love in a lifetime. Jessa is annoying, girl get help. 

By the way, none of these women are breathtakingly beautiful either. They aren't major head turners, they can look pretty IMO, but they look like regular pretty girls to me and Marnie doesn't always look that pretty, she's just attractive in the face somewhat. 

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14 hours ago, DianeDobbler said:

I agree that pseudo Hannah is more interesting, and I can buy certain guys being attracted to her more than I could the original. It might be as shallow as her having a better body, but I also think she is just plain more interesting in that world. However, the real Hannah I have gotten used to. It's her quality of "you always miss 100% of the shots you don't take". I've learned something watching her, because the long game of her character I think shows something true about life that a lot of people think ISN'T true. Usually people who do the things she does, who are not full on crazy, have something that insulates them from consequences for awhile, but Hannah doesn't seem to. She shouldn't be able to do and get away with the things she does (such as having hot boyfriends). But I've come to believe in it because the character never stops herself, her character follows her own will. That's different enough to get her to places where her looks and even her personality might not.

 I compared some of Jessa's crazy/reckless stuff with some of Hannah's. I don't think anybody doubted that Jessa could hook up with a guy she met in a bar (early in the show's run, when the character was pregnant) and have sex in the john, but they'd doubt it about Hannah. With Hannah, because she has nothing to protect her or help her get away with what she does, I think the audience keeps thinking "You CAN'T do that" or "You can't get away with that!" I think Lena Dunham once remarked on some of the out there things that Hannah does, but also mentioned she thinks that might be how Hannah ends up getting somewhere in the end, and I agree. Hannah can be irresponsible and get sidetracked, but it's never out of "I can't" or "I don't measure up here." Even when every other person besides herself would probably think she can't and doesn't. Even when the actual experience she's having tells her she can't or isn't measuring up.

 Hannah is always playing out of her league, is undeterred and insensitive to any negating signals, and I think in the end she will wind up in a sort of "Shoot for the moon, you might land among the stars" situation. Pseudo Hannah has a charm that real Hannah doesn't, but real Hannah has a force of will about herself that I think is pretty rare, even though so many times, you think surely now she'll be humiliated. The thing is, she's not. That is what's special about her.

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I agree with a lot of what you are saying.  However, it saddens me in 2017 that just the idea of a perfectly attractive, but ordinary looking girl, being the center of attention on a t.v. show so revolutionary.  Everyone from Woody Allen forward has often cast a fairly nice looking woman with an odd looking man and no one blinks an eye.  It's the cliché of men have something to offer, besides their looks, but women have to met a base line standard of attractiveness to be considered worthy.

I recently attended a wedding where a grooms man was giving a toast to the new couple.  In his toast all he could say was how "hot" the bride was and how the groom (which he described as a geeky engineer) was lucky to be marrying such a "hot" girl.

The groom was indeed an engineer, but far from geeky...actually fairly good looking by most standards.  The bride, I kid you not, look like a blonde version of Hannah.  I purposefully said Hannah not Lena, who can look quite glamorous.

It was not that I did not think the bride was attractive (far from it), but it bothered me that the groomsman could not think of any other way to compliment her, beyond her looks.  He did say other things, but it was obvious that was the quality he thought was most important.  It is like a man is supposed to always go for the best looking woman he can get and her looks are a compliment to him.

It is true that Jessa does probably get away with many things in life, because she is a pretty blonde white woman.  However, I really do not get her appeal, even though I know physically her look is much prized in our society.

She has become the biggest asshat in the world, but in high school, Marnie is the type of girl I would want to be like.  I bet you in she was the pretty put together girl that got excellent grades and was popular, though more for her looks then personality.

Does anyone find it odd, that we sometimes have people comment on how hot Jessa is on the show , but rarely do we hear these things about Marnie in the show world...not that it matter.

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34 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

This might be why it would be a good idea for Hannah to hear unsolicited advice on the issue.  A father has legal rights with regard to his child. 

A father can establish legal rights with regard to his child...but it's his responsibility to establish those rights, particularly in a one-night stand situation like this where paternity is not presumed. As it is, he may not even be the father as far as the law is concerned, and that's his problem. Not the mother's. If the father can't be bothered to inform himself as to having fathered a child after having unprotected sex and not bothering to contact the mother after, and then takes steps so that the court will recognize him as the child's father (since they certainly won't assume it), that's on him. Courts will have little sympathy for such a person, and rightly so.

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A mother who interferes with those rights can find herself losing custody

Except this father hasn't established any rights, and nor will he unless he takes active steps to assert those rights (such as requesting that a paternity test be ordered to establish paternity), which he has not. So actually Hannah isn't interfering with any of his rights, since he has none at this point.

I also dispute your claim that a "mother who interferes with [parental] rights can find herself losing custody." Not really. It is true that a mother who interferes with an existing access arrangement in a pervasive manner or on an ongoing basis or who engages in parental alienation with an existing, established parental caregiver (shit-talking the other parent to poison the relationship), can find herself punished by the courts, under certain extreme circumstances, but this is not that situation. A mother not telling her babydaddy, who is not even a "parent" until a court makes that determination, doesn't qualify.

As for your suggestion that Hannah could find herself losing custody, that is ridiculous. Custody as determined by the courts is only about the best interests of the child, not about the hurt feelings of the father...especially fathers who couldn't be bothered to investigate whether or not they'd fathered a child after having unprotected sex during a one-night stand, i.e. fathers who had no relationship with the mother. If a father who fathered a child during a single night of unprotected sex while he was in a relationship comes charging into court years down the line, outraged that he was never told by the mother and demanding that she be immediately stripped of custody for her horrible crime despite the mother having been the primary caregiver for X number of years and the only parent the child had ever known, he'd get laughed out of court. For real. 

I'm sure certain factions--"men's rights" advocates, for one--would love to punish women who don't tell fathers about the existence of their children through stripping them of custody of their children, but fortunately, the courts care first and foremost about the welfare of children, not about the hurt feelings of careless babydaddies. 

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This might be why it would be a good idea for Hannah to hear unsolicited advice on the issue. 

Well, in this case at least, your idea of "unsolicited advice" about legal rights would be 100% wrong, for the reasons I have said. You've provided an excellent example of why unsolicited advice is terrible: people giving it rarely know what they're talking about.

Edited by Eyes High.
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A father has legal rights with regard to his child...but it's his responsibility to establish those rights, particularly in a one-night stand situation like this where paternity is not presumed. That's his problem. Not the mother's. If the father can't be bothered to inform himself as to having fathered a child after having unprotected sex and not bothering to contact the mother after, that's on him. Courts will have little sympathy.

That's not entirely correct, particularly in situations where the mother took steps to hide the pregnancy from the father.  That's why I would never advise a person to hide the fact they are pregnant from the father of the baby, unless there was some extraordinary circumstance.     

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As for your suggestion that Hannah could find herself losing custody, that is ridiculous. Custody as determined by the courts is only about the best interests of the child, not about the hurt feelings of the father...especially fathers who couldn't be bothered to investigate whether or not they'd fathered a child after having unprotected sex during a one-night stand. If a father who fathered a child during a single night of unprotected sex while he was in another relationship comes charging into court years down the line, outraged that he was never told by the mother and demanding that she be immediately stripped of custody for her horrible crime despite the mother having been the primary caregiver for X number of years and the only parent the child had ever known, he'd get laughed out of court. For real.

I didn't actually describe a scenario like that, or make any such claim.  That's just a straw man.   I said her actions could lead to legal repercussions, including, up to, losing custody.  Nothing you've said actually disputes that. 

Edited by txhorns79.
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14 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I didn't actually describe a scenario like that, or make any such claim.  That's just a straw man.   I said her actions could lead to legal repercussions, including up to losing custody.  Nothing you've said actually disputes that. 

No, I specifically said her actions could not lead to losing custody, as they do not fall under the category of actions that may attract sanction by the court, which I described (interfering with an existing access arrangement with a parent, parental alienation). You suggested that she risked being punished by the court or even losing custody for not telling him about the pregnancy, which is frankly a ludicrous argument given the circumstances.

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That's not entirely correct, particularly in situations where the mother took steps to hide the pregnancy from the father. 

Not telling the father when he can't be bothered to investigate whether he fathered the child is not the same thing as hiding, and there's no suggestion that Hannah is hiding the pregnancy. Lying about it if asked by the father may be something else, since that could be construed as thwarting his good faith attempts to ascertain paternity and denying his attempts to seek access, but Hannah never expected to be contacted by him again and never indicated that she planned on lying to him, so that doesn't apply.

Even if she had deliberately lied and concealed the pregnancy from him, it's true that courts are pretty lenient towards mothers in such circumstances, because of the whole best interests of the child/primary caregiver thing. The idea that courts will swoop in and strip custody from mothers who lie to babydaddies about their pregnancies because they lied--since "fathers have rights!!!"--is nothing more than a misogynist fantasy. It's not about fathers' hurt feelings; it's about the children. Any lawyer who blows smoke up a father's ass about how he can go back to court years after and get custody of a child who's the product of a one-night stand is negligent.

As I said, there is no legal obligation on the mother to notify the father, and the onus is on the father to ascertain and take steps to assert paternity. 

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That's why I would never advise a person to hide the fact they are pregnant from the father of the baby, unless there was some extraordinary circumstances.  

Not taking steps to contact someone who's no longer in the mother's life and whom she reasonably expects never to see again is not the same thing as actively concealing a pregnancy from someone with whom she has an existing relationship. That's a very straightforward distinction. Even in the latter case, the courts would cut women slack if the issue is coming up years down the road.

Edited by Eyes High.
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As I said, there is no legal obligation on the mother to notify the father, and the onus is on the father to ascertain and take steps to assert paternity. 

As I said, that's not entirely correct.  If you have a case you are thinking of, heard by the Court of Appeals or the lower courts in New York, I'm glad to take a look.     

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You suggested that she risked being punished by the court or even losing custody for not telling him about the pregnancy, which is a ludicrous argument.

That's not actually ludicrous.  I'm not sure why you would think that. 

Edited by txhorns79.
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17 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

As I said, that's not entirely correct.  If you have a case you are thinking of, heard by the Court of Appeals or the lower courts in New York, I'm glad to take a look.     

You haven't been able to cite any authority for your claim that the mother has a legal obligation to notify the father despite insisting this is the case, so the obligation to find a cite falls on you. 

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That's not actually ludicrous.  I'm not sure why you would think that.

Well, again, if you can produce a court decision where a woman, years after the birth of a product of a one-night stand, was stripped of custody solely because she had omitted to tell the father about the pregnancy, by all means go ahead. Otherwise? Yeah, it's ludicrous.

However, if we're going to continue this, we should go to DMs, since it's getting off-topic by this point.

Edited by Eyes High.
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3 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

I don't want to see her get back with Adam and I believe I heard Lena say in interviews that the finale will not be some pretty box, bow wrapped ending. So I can't see her with the baby and Adam makes three and I'm over Adam in Hannah's life. 

I can't see that ending for his show either, and I don't think that's where it's headed. I do think it is entirely in character for Adam to think about wanting her back again now that he knows she's really moving on in a big way, and also that she's potentially in a position to need help and support again. That doesn't mean Hannah wants him back, especially after he's been in a serious relationship with her friend. I didn't see any longing or conflicted feelings from her in that scene on the sidewalk; she seems done with him. 

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43 minutes ago, stagmania said:

I can't see that ending for his show either, and I don't think that's where it's headed. I do think it is entirely in character for Adam to think about wanting her back again now that he knows she's really moving on in a big way, and also that she's potentially in a position to need help and support again. That doesn't mean Hannah wants him back, especially after he's been in a serious relationship with her friend. I didn't see any longing or conflicted feelings from her in that scene on the sidewalk; she seems done with him. 

... but they did follow that up with her watching the movie and looking like she felt some way about it. What way remains to be seen.

(I'm on the fence about Hannah/Adam. I've liked and loathed them as a couple.)

Four episodes left, it's anyone's game.

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32 minutes ago, kieyra said:

(I'm on the fence about Hannah/Adam. I've liked and loathed them as a couple.)

I'm 60/40 on loathing. I hated the way their relationship started and ended, but in-between I do think they had genuine love for each other. Their dynamic was never healthy though, and I'm not sure they both have grown enough to be able to avoid falling into those patterns again. I did cheer when Hannah refused to get back together with him after Sample's birth, and while I could *understand* if they get back together at the end, I'm not at all confident that they'll have a "happily every after".

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I am old and gray now but in my youth I had a couple relationships that were like those styrofoam packing peanuts that stick to your clothes. It took a long time to disentangle myself. It was a merry-go-round. We would break it off, get back together, then immediately regret it and split up again. Then I'd see him with some other girl and immediately HAVE to get him back. Which would last a week. Then for some reason a year later we'd hook up again. It went on like that for years.

In spite of what I thought at the time, I can look back now and see that there really was nothing special or magical or even meaningful about the relationships that caused us to keep boomeranging back to each other. The relationship was a habit. It was predictable. Striking out with the new lovers was hard on my ego, and going back to the old lover was comforting. Under the influence of romantic pop music, I got it all muddled with ideas of true love or "we were meant for each other" -- but that wasn't it at all. It just took a while for us to kick ourselves loose from that sticky-ness. But eventually we did. We moved on and grew up. We found other, new lovers. Life goes on. Adam and Hannah seem a lot like that to me. I'd be disappointed if Lena Dunham gives us a typical happy ending. Girls is not Love Actually. 

Edited by lidarose9.
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qtpye, I agree that it's sad how such a fuss is made over an ordinary looking girl as the leading lady of a TV show, and how the hotness of her leading men is scrutinized. But I did that myself. I was all "are you kidding me?" over Adam/Hannah, and Hannah/Patrick Wilson.

I never see, in real life, the disparity in attractiveness levels between Hannah and her boyfriends. However, one guy wrote from a guy's point of view how Hannah/the Patrick Wilson character was plausible under the circumstances, and it also made me look at my own observations, and how far absolute obliviousness, but a driven quality, can take someone. Believe me, the "others" (characters on the show) who criticize and bash Hannah, are not nearly as invested in keeping her down as Hannah is invested in keeping herself moving forward, in seizing opportunities, or in recognizing an opportunity that isn't even one, but that she makes into one. That gives Hannah the advantage. And for every opportunity she finds, let's not forget how much rejection she tramples over, much of it caused by herself, but still. How many of us could handle some of the rejection Hannah faces simply by behaving in the same entitled way a good looking person might behave? Or a narcissistic dude might act? Me, I'm always inclined to say, but Hannah. You're not a good-looking person. Or, you're not a narcissistic dude. But I underrate that quality of determination and will that in real life, I acknowledge carries people further, in my experience. Hannah has taken the rejection, humiliation, and embarrassment that I think would make a ton of people quail. It really is a signifying characteristic of successful people. You know the old trope of "I'm a fraud, and people will find out?" That was Hannah's reality as a character from day one, as far as the audience was concerned, and also as a person from day one, within the fictitious universe of Girls, but she is not the sort of person who worries about people thinking she's a joke. She worries more about what she wants. A whole lot of people think about many other things other than that.

I just don't think Marnie is hot. I think she's way more a girl's idea of a hot girl than a guy's. What does she lack to be a guy's idea of a hot girl? Money. If she were a trust fund baby or a rich kid, she'd be right in there, like Allison Williams herself. Without that back-up, she's not Jessa, and most ordinary guys won't be falling over themselves for her. I think there's a whole strata of NON hot guys  (like Ray, I guess) who would show up for her, but as for the guys she's aiming for ? All she has are looks that every single girl aiming for the same guys already has and then some, and that plus other advantages Marnie lacks. Marnie is not looking for deep, soulful guys. She's looking for a successful, hot guy in the arts on track to be successful. For guys like that, Marnie is a baseline.

Edited by DianeDobbler.
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