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“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

16 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Difference for me is that Dean generally lets it go after saying his peace.  Sam comes back at Dean in passive aggressive ways which is why I think Sam is more controlling than Dean.  Dean is guilty of openly telling Sam how he should cope but then let's it go and IMO doesn't play passive aggressive games.  JMHO

Same.  There is a difference between sharing your opinion and then, leaving it alone.  And there is a difference about saying "you should talk about it" and then, again, leaving it alone.  Sam keeps at it and keeps at it and is weirdly judgmental about it. It comes across less as concern and more about being annoyed Dean's "doing it wrong", even when it's Dean's OWN feelings.

Yes Dean has said "You should do it this way" but he tends to say it and then just move on. 

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On 11/11/2018 at 12:53 PM, MysteryGuest said:

My bitch is that I want better writing all the way around, for all of the characters.  I want them to tell interesting stories. 

This is my biggest complaint and all the issues are from poor writing choices.  I didn't see Dean asking Sam to take Jack on a hunt.  More like him saying I'm going out and Sam trying to talk him out of it.  But Dean didn't listen and did it anyway.

I see Dean as a better leader because of his actions.  Sam's actions don't match the tell for me so that is on the writers to fix.  I think all the complaints could be resolved if the stories were stronger.  I'm waiting to see if they show me why Dean feels so guilty because so far I don't see much for him to have an issue with.  Michael was mainly killing monsters...so why is that such a bad thing?

I am also wondering if Jensen has been allowed to spend more time with family due to the twins and such.  No clue if they are writing in a way that allows him more time or not, but that would make this fan feel better. lol JMV.

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3 hours ago, 7kstar said:

I am also wondering if Jensen has been allowed to spend more time with family due to the twins and such.  No clue if they are writing in a way that allows him more time or not, but that would make this fan feel better. lol JMV.

I doubt that Jensen would get any more time off than Jared since they both have 3 young children, but they do seem to be staggering their shooting schedule.  I'm sure it's just a way for them to stretch out the limited number of scenes they get with the J's.  They get double the mileage when they split them up.  It's not to my liking, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that not only did the boys negotiate fewer episodes, but possibly also fewer scenes in the episodes they do shoot.  Shorter shooting days, etc.  I would definitely have preferred a 13 episode series with more Jensen and Jared and less extras.

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50 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I doubt that Jensen would get any more time off than Jared since they both have 3 young children, but they do seem to be staggering their shooting schedule.  I'm sure it's just a way for them to stretch out the limited number of scenes they get with the J's.

My only reasoning was that the twins are almost two, while Jared has one child that young and the others are older.  But it doesn't mean I know squat about why they are showing more Jared now vs Jensen.  Although by having the boys do separate hunts it allows for different scheduling and time off. 

I totally get their desire to have more time off and they can call the shots so to speak on this show vs a new one but I would rather they end the show than what I'm seeing if that makes any sense.  Just my preference...but I want a show to go out on top, not limp to the finish line.

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I can't believe dean has been back for 4 episodes and not once has Mary asked Dean how he is doing post possession. She has been on hand to reassure sam that he is the bestest leader that ever was and she has been emotionally available enough to bobby to enable them to start a relationship. She has shown not one iota of concern for her eldest. All of the mary/Dean scenes from previous episodes have now been tainted and I deeply resent dabb and his cohorts for that.( though Samantha's acting has not helped either)

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Moved from Ep Optimism Thread to be safe: 

Quote

 

4 HOURS AGO, RES SAID:

My take on the Mary run, if it really was that (and at this point in time we do not have reason to doubt other than pointless hope for more), is that Dean was just "being a good son" as he is.

 

Quote

From: ILOVEREADING: This is how I saw it.  But I have a personal head canon that Dean used this as a cover story.  He actually went somewhere to get away from Chief and his minions.  So I think he met Ketch and they went for a motor bike ride, a quick hunt, and a makeout session. 

I completely understand your head canon and sympathize but we all know that TPTB will NEVER let Dean be about ANYBODY but SAM and family then any pet projects they want to prop which is why he is never allowed any growth or development and ALWAYS has to be about SAM, no matter what. They have completely neutered him in that aspect. Dean will take anything they dish out and keep being the good son, good brother, perfect soldier and weapon. That is all the character development he will ever be allowed. Just to be about everyone else regardless of the massive amount of trauma and dysfunction he deals with on a constant basis. He will never be allowed to deal with any of that because someone else or something else will always take precedence over him. I would say that "Death is his only release" but that's not true because he always comes back. Like Cas said, "I realize now that's a curse."

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17 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

Interesting that?  He doesn't feel guilty and the show seems to have forgotten about it, as usual

Show also seems to have completely forgotten who it was that was convinced GOD chose him specifically for his quest to go back to the Cage and seek out Lucifer. Because playing into Sam's hubris is exactly the right ploy to get him to do what you want.

Was Sam ever held responsible for this? All I see is people being upset on Sam's behalf every time he has to face Lucifer (poor, sweet baby), but not that he is actually ultimately resonsible for re-releasing him. And just to remind people: Dean was very outspoken that he considered it a bad idea that Sam went to the Cage.

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I know this is petty but I really don't care.  One of my favorite moments of the ep was when Sam was playing with his fidget spinner and really enjoying it Charlie gives him a Sam's patented buzzkill look and he gets embarrassed and stops. 

Considering how many times Sam does that to Dean when he's enjoying something it serves him right that he got a taste of his own medicine.

Edited by ILoveReading.
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2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I know this is petty but I really don't care.  One of my favorite moments of the ep was when Sam was playing with his fidget spinner and really enjoying it Charlie gives him a Sam's patented buzzkill look and he gets embarrassed and stops. 

 

 I don't see Sam playing with a fidget spinner much less making a goofy face whilst doing it. It came across as Jared playing with it during filming and they kept it in. If it was Charlie being Sam in that moment, then that furthers my belief the show is trying to turn Sam into Dean.

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13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 I don't see Sam playing with a fidget spinner much less making a goofy face whilst doing it. It came across as Jared playing with it during filming and they kept it in. If it was Charlie being Sam in that moment, then that furthers my belief the show is trying to turn Sam into Dean.

This is how far they have gone in making Sam joyless (IMO) - that it seems so OOC for him to play with a simple toy. It also (IMO) highlights the difference in what they do to/with the two characters when it comes to teasing or in worse case, mocking. Dean stumbles over gates, is clumsy to the extreme, can't pronounce (or understand) simple phrases in another language, has literal food falling out of his mouth while chewing with his mouth open. Sam plays with a super-popular (if a little passé) toy.

Edited by gonzosgirrl. Reason: because I am physically unable not to have a typo
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7 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

Show also seems to have completely forgotten who it was that was convinced GOD chose him specifically for his quest to go back to the Cage and seek out Lucifer. Because playing into Sam's hubris is exactly the right ploy to get him to do what you want.

Was Sam ever held responsible for this? All I see is people being upset on Sam's behalf every time he has to face Lucifer (poor, sweet baby), but not that he is actually ultimately resonsible for re-releasing him. And just to remind people: Dean was very outspoken that he considered it a bad idea that Sam went to the Cage.

Cas was responsible for letting Lucifer out of the cage.  Sam said no to him.

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34 minutes ago, Mulva said:

Cas was responsible for letting Lucifer out of the cage.  Sam said no to him.

Sam was responsible for bringing Lucifer out of the Pit, and for believing that the cage would hold him, and he didn't wait for Dean to tell him it was a bad idea.  That's the only reason Cas wound up face to face with Luci and able to say yes.  And yes, saying yes was Cas's idea, though I'm sure it wouldn't even have occurred to him if he hadn't been right there at the time.

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27 minutes ago, Mulva said:

Cas was responsible for letting Lucifer out of the cage.  Sam said no to him.

I'm talking about insisting on going to the Cage in the first place, but whatever, feel free to disagree.

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12 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

Show also seems to have completely forgotten who it was that was convinced GOD chose him specifically for his quest to go back to the Cage and seek out Lucifer. Because playing into Sam's hubris is exactly the right ploy to get him to do what you want.

Was Sam ever held responsible for this? All I see is people being upset on Sam's behalf every time he has to face Lucifer (poor, sweet baby), but not that he is actually ultimately resonsible for re-releasing him. And just to remind people: Dean was very outspoken that he considered it a bad idea that Sam went to the Cage.

Ultimately Cas was the one who re-released Lucifer.  Sam makes a lot of mistakes in the series and yes it was a mistake to go to the cage, but what actually released him from the cage was acquiring a vessel which Castiel provided him.... not Sam going into the cage itself.  Just because Cas went to the cage to help Sam, that doesnt mean it erases all responsibility for his (Castiels) own choices.

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8 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Ultimately Cas was the one who re-released Lucifer.  Sam makes a lot of mistakes in the series and yes it was a mistake to go to the cage, but what actually released him from the cage was acquiring a vessel which Castiel provided him.... not Sam going into the cage itself.  Just because Cas went to the cage to help Sam, that doesnt mean it erases all responsibility for his (Castiels) own choices.

I agree. They are both responsible.

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As far as Sam in season 14, I am glad that they are showing him to be somewhat competent with his hunting this season especially after the last half of season 13 could only show him as a weak and useless hunter.

As far as I'm concerned I could take or leave the leader storyline as I'm not that invested in much of the AU hunters.  They arent really showing us most of these characters onscreen and they are essentially nameless faces.  I just want to see Sam be competent and successful at times which was seriously lacking last season.

As far as Dean is concerned, he seems to be very competent still with hunting.  He essentially solved and killed the djinn all on his own 2 episodes ago.  He also got the more interesting storyline last episode.  I can understand the disappointment in the lack of Michael storyline for Dean at the moment, but he is still being shown to be a great hunter.  IMO, it is better to show this onscreen than to just have a character say it.  I feel the narrative does better and takes more time showing things for Dean as opposed to telling the audience which sometimes happens with Sam.

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18 minutes ago, Reganne said:

IMO, it is better to show this onscreen than to just have a character say it.  I feel the narrative does better and takes more time showing things for Dean as opposed to telling the audience which sometimes happens with Sam.

I would agree with this, except that, as witnessed here in this forum many, many times, the "show" is interpreted by the viewer, and usually creates more debate because it *isn't* said outright.  Usually the "tell" is direct and, while some might disagree with what it's saying, there's less question of what exactly was intended.   Although I admit even a direct statement is subject to interpretation of tone of voice, expression, body language, and what you think of the character.  

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16 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I would agree with this, except that, as witnessed here in this forum many, many times, the "show" is interpreted by the viewer, and usually creates more debate because it *isn't* said outright.  Usually the "tell" is direct and, while some might disagree with what it's saying, there's less question of what exactly was intended.   Although I admit even a direct statement is subject to interpretation of tone of voice, expression, body language, and what you think of the character.  

For me, I would rather see it.  Then you know that effort was actually put forth in an attempt to tell their story.  And I do agree that even having a character say something can be interpreted differently anyway.  

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1 hour ago, Reganne said:

Ultimately Cas was the one who re-released Lucifer.  Sam makes a lot of mistakes in the series and yes it was a mistake to go to the cage, but what actually released him from the cage was acquiring a vessel which Castiel provided him.... not Sam going into the cage itself.  Just because Cas went to the cage to help Sam, that doesnt mean it erases all responsibility for his (Castiels) own choices.

It was absolutely Cas's choice.  Of course, he wouldnt' have been in the position to make that choice if Sam hadn't retrieved Lucifer and Cas hadn't shown up in order to "rescue" Sam.  So I'd say the blame for the situation can be shared.** Cas takes the sole blame for saying yes. 

**ETA: Actually, no.  The blame for creating the situation is all Sam's.  The blame for saying yes is all Cas.  

10 minutes ago, Reganne said:

For me, I would rather see it.  Then you know that effort was actually put forth in an attempt to tell their story.  And I do agree that even having a character say something can be interpreted differently anyway.  

Considering how many "discussions" I've seen here where people see the same exact thing on screen and interpret it completely opposite, I'd appreciate a "tell" once in a while, just to validate one side or another.   

Edited by ahrtee.
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2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

**ETA: Actually, no.  The blame for creating the situation is all Sam's. 

Actually, in my opinion, no... it's partly Sam's and partly Rowena's. Rowena lied and manipulated the situation to her own ends. Sam shouldn't have even been able to be brought into the cage to begin with. Rowena botched the spell purposely. Sam maybe should have known better, but that for me doesn't take away that Rowena was partially responsible.

Also - as detailed below - in my opinion most, if not all, of the blame for Lucifer being around to cause Michael belongs to Crowley.

16 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

Show also seems to have completely forgotten who it was that was convinced GOD chose him specifically for his quest to go back to the Cage and seek out Lucifer. Because playing into Sam's hubris is exactly the right ploy to get him to do what you want.

Sam was looking for information. It's what Sam does. And Lucifer was one of the very few - maybe only - beings who might have the information they needed.

As for hubris... in my opinion, Sam praying to God (and mainly on Dean's behalf) - who he has mostly had faith in his entirely life, and who he still wanted to have faith in after having much of his life manipulated to satisfy God's little fable and spending over a hundred years in hell with Lucifer - and hoping that maybe he finally, finally might get some help - to me - is not hubris. It was the hope of a desperate man hoping for information. And in Sam's defense, Dean didn't really say exactly why Sam supposedly going was a bad idea... he mostly just said no, because he said so.

I think some people might also be forgetting that despite all of that - Sam's bad decision, Castiel's bad decision, God allowing Lucifer to stay and not killing him, etc... - that Lucifer would be back in the cage anyway with little harm done except for the fact that Crowley sabotaged the spell to send Lucifer back to the cage in order to satisfy his own need for revenge and comeuppance. So in my opinion most of the blame actually belongs to Crowley more than anyone else. If it weren't for Crowley, Lucifer would have been back in the cage and we hopefully never would have heard from him again.

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14 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Actually, in my opinion, no... it's partly Sam's and partly Rowena's. Rowena lied and manipulated the situation to her own ends. Sam shouldn't have even been able to be brought into the cage to begin with. Rowena botched the spell purposely. Sam maybe should have known better, but that for me doesn't take away that Rowena was partially responsible.

Also - as detailed below - in my opinion most, if not all, of the blame for Lucifer being around to cause Michael belongs to Crowley.

Um, in my opinion, no.  

Lucifer was locked away.  Trapped in the cage he'd been stuck in for millennia, so we know there was no way he could break out on his own.  Sam's the one who locked him there, so he knew how important it was to keep him locked up, especially with his unique perspective on Lucifer's character. 

The *only* reason he was topside and able to escape--able to have Rowena manipulate the situation, or to have Cas let him out or Crowley let him escape--was because Sam insisted on it.  And the reason he insisted...was because he didn't believe anyone who told him it was a bad idea, not even to wait long enough to think things through rationally.  He was convinced that he was right and that he could control the situation.  That's hubris.  And *everything* that happened as a result of that is his fault in some sense.  He may not have pulled the trigger, but he bought, loaded and handed the gun to people he knew were unstable and/or untrustworthy.

Maybe he was desperate, but there are some things you shouldn't risk, even if it seems the only way.   That was the same thing he did with the Book of the Damned.  So he just never seems to learn.  

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