Jump to content

“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

Official Post

This topic is your new home for voicing opinions about TPTB Love/Hate Dean, TPTB Love/Hate Sam. Please remember our golden rule of ‘Be Civil’; there are no right or wrong opinions here, only different ones. Nobody has to justify their opinion or back it up with facts, if you disagree with a post, you may say so in a civil manner. But remember, trying to convince anyone online that they are wrong is not only foolhardy, but akin to beating one’s head against a brick wall – and as we are moderators, not medics, we aren’t able to deal with head trauma.

8

Share Post


Link to post

Brought over from the "Bitterness" thread, just in case:

14 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Well, it is an ongoing source of bitterness for me. And I`m beyond ready for my Super!Dean ep. Just one would be nice.

I think there have been a few - "Live Free or Twihard," "First Born," and "The Werther Box" for example, probably "King of the Damned" and the episode where Dean killed all of the Stynes, too, and maybe more in season 9 and 10 that I'm not thinking of. Maybe "Regarding Dean" from this season also applies? - but in general I agree that there are less entire episodes for Dean this way, but I think it's maybe because Dean already has so many regular episodes where he saves the day.

It could be worse, maybe? At least it's not a show trope that Dean gets kidnapped - and sometimes tied to little chairs - all the time like Sam does. That's actually kind of a funny and/or charming thing for me now, it happens so often. If Sam hadn't gotten Samnapped in "Fan Fiction" for example, I think I would've been disappointed. I'm pretty sure Sam must have permanent brain damage, too, from how many times he's been knocked unconscious from a blow to the head (though sometimes I wonder how some of these people even reach his head with objects, considering his height.)

4

Share Post


Link to post

Can you think of any where he wasn`t "enhanced", just human? I think Live Free comes closests because it portrayed his actions in a positive light but he wasn`t quite human. I enjoy his badassery in First Born and King of the Damned very much but he wasn`t Super!Saviour of people in those.

I don`t think there are really that many episodes where Dean saves the day. Last Season the standalones were pretty awful in that regard and this Season is not really that much better. I`m feeling like the start of Season 6 right now where "rusty" Dean had to be saved for like 10 episodes in a row.

Quote

It could be worse, maybe? At least it's not a show trope that Dean gets kidnapped - and sometimes tied to little chairs

He gets taken out rather easily and captured plenty IMO. 

And of course there is the apology trope. And the Cassandra trope where even if he turns out right later on, a) noone will listen and b) the narrative will later shift the blame onto him. Either through creating false paralells or retconning or whatnot. In the end other character`s bad actions will be kinda his fault. Their successes will still be their own of course.

Dean`s successes will either be forgotten, minimized, recreated later with other characters or attributed to the other characters too. Suddenly it was a joint victory. Now Dean`s flaws and bad decisions - noone but him shares in the blame. 

I think the writers, for the most part, see the character as "just a killer". Basically like Ketch. And they truly do think Sam is the "smart, sweet, intelligent one" whereas Dean is the "uncouth, dumb and violent one". Oh, and of course a drama queen about his feelings and in constant need to learn lessons. That`s the yarn that is spun on the show and in interviews and heck, by other actors even. I`d like to hear the writers like Dabb or Singer say even ONE good thing about Dean that is unrelated to Sam. I doubt they could think of one.

6

Share Post


Link to post
3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

 

And of course there is the apology trope. And the Cassandra trope where even if he turns out right later on, a) noone will listen and b) the narrative will later shift the blame onto him. Either through creating false paralells or retconning or whatnot. In the end other character`s bad actions will be kinda his fault. Their successes will still be their own of course.

Dean`s successes will either be forgotten, minimized, recreated later with other characters or attributed to the other characters too. Suddenly it was a joint victory. Now Dean`s flaws and bad decisions - noone but him shares in the blame. 

 

It's interesting to see everyone's different takes on things, because I don't see this at all.  Take the apocalypse for example.  Dean was right about Sam's involvement with Ruby and him using his powers.  Sam ended up starting the apocalypse instead of stopping it.  Come season 5, it was quite clear to me that most people blamed Sam for the apocalypse..... not Dean even though Dean did break the first seal.  That plot point was practically forgotten.  The other hunters came for Sam.  Not Dean.  I don't remember anything that would point to Dean being blamed for the apocalypse in season 5.  

Edited by Reganne.
3

Share Post


Link to post

Frankly I hate either one getting blamed: both were manipulated into breaking seals.

4

Share Post


Link to post
3 minutes ago, mertensia said:

Frankly I hate either one getting blamed: both were manipulated into breaking seals.

Oh I totally agree.  They were completely unaware that their actions were leading to the very thing they wanted to avoid.  I was just glad that when 'Bobby' said those things to Sam, that it wasn't actually him.  Only a Demon that was possessing him because when I watched it the first time, I was thinking... weren't they all trying to figure out how to kill Lilith and stop her from breaking the seals?

0

Share Post


Link to post
Quote

 Come season 5, it was quite clear to me that most people blamed Sam for the apocalypse..... not Dean even though Dean did break the first seal. 

I see doing something under torture as vastly different than doing something because your demon dealer told you what you wanted to hear.

For making the demon deal in the first place that got him into hell, yes, it`s fair to blame Dean. That`s a different story. And incidentally the only time I truly hated the character. End of Season 2, I thought: yup, you made your bed, now lie in it, re: hell.  

Quote

 I don't remember anything that would point to Dean being blamed for the apocalypse in season 5.  

To me the narrative did because it shifted the responsibility from Sam making choices to "he only did that because Dean was mean and bossy". Sam didn`t really need to change his stance. He was the big hero he thought he would be in Season 4. Only Dean had to change and be more supportive.

They did it again in Season 11 "we released the darkness". Oh, so Dean gets to share in the blame. Yet the resolution according to Crowley was "God`s powers and kinda them". Well, Dean, you get the blame but none of the credit. Super.      

Edited by Aeryn13.
3

Share Post


Link to post
3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I see doing something under torture as vastly different than doing something because your demon dealer told you what you wanted to hear.

For making the demon deal in the first place that got him into hell, yes, it`s fair to blame Dean. That`s a different story. And incidentally the only time I truly hated the character. End of Season 2, I thought: yup, you made your bed, now lie in it, re: hell.  

To me the narrative did because it shifted the responsibility from Sam making choices to "he only did that because Dean was mean and bossy". Sam didn`t really need to change his stance. He was the big hero he thought he would be in Season 4. Only Dean had to change and be more supportive.

They did it again in Season 11 "we released the darkness". Oh, so Dean gets to share in the blame. Yet the resolution according to Crowley was "God`s powers and kinda them". Well, Dean, you get the blame but none of the credit. Super.      

Yes, it was the demon deal that eventually led to Dean breaking the first seal.  I didn't see that narrative shift with Dean in season 5 personally.  Dean only started to try and be supportive/work with Sam again once he realized where 'the end' could lead to.  He decided to be team free will of his own accord.  I didn't see it as admitting he was wrong or taking the blame of the apocalypse for being bossy.  I saw Sam as asking him to treat him like an equal partner as a completely separate issue.  I don't remember the blame of the apocalypse being brought up in that conversation but I could be forgetting it.  Personally, I didn't think that was the reason why Sam drank the blood and bonded with Ruby in the first place.  He sincerely thought his powers could stop Lilith. 

0

Share Post


Link to post

I have to admit I'm really concerned about Deans' role going forward.  Because unless the writers are planning to split Sam and Dean up (and we know they're not), unless Sam keeps his work secret how do you actually go about writing their different points of view?

The writers have established that even if the Brits suck at everything they do, they're methods seem to be working as neither Sam nor Dean can find a case.  So how do you have Dean maintain his POV without looking like petulant child.

If Sam comes clean and has access to toys and for example they're trying to take out a werewolf pack what plausible excuse could Dean give for not taking the safer route instead of the old fashioned way and risking their lives. ( I can see a future ep of Dean getting a hunter killed by insisting they stick to the old methods. ).

If Dean has a reasonable objection is the show just going to fall back on the tired bossy/treats Sam like a child/meen!Dean trope the writers like to use.  They just did it in this last ep.  Dean's points to Mary were legitimate. The only thing the writers focuses on was the "mom" line and acted like Dean's major issues was that Mary didn't bring him a bowl of soup or sing hey Jude, even though.  I don't think the writers meant for that apology to be taken at anything but face value.   They also did it in Dean's scene with Chuck.  He brings up good points and all he's told in the end is he's mixing God up with his father.

So how long is it before Sam pulls the "stop treating me like a child, let me make my own decisions" card, which he tends to do when Dean disagrees with him.

I'm not convinced there is some kind of con going on.  The writers tend to go surface (see Dean's apology) and I really think Dabb believes that these brits are are everything and more.  I think Sam and Mary joining is really because they believe what they're being told.  On this show I find what you see is what you get. 

So unless the plan is for Dean to jump on board and relatively quickly, how exactly is this going to work.

Once again they've set a scenario that can't unless they're willing to buck the status quo.  The storyline could actually work if they were willing too.  I don't mind conflict if its organic.  The Brits mission statement is something that they've long established that Sam can get on board with.  He's never been into hunting the way Dean is.  Its been established that if something seems to good to be true it really is.   It would be totally in character for Dean to object on those grounds and not throw in with right away. 

Dean hunting with Ketch, while Sam works jobs with Mary, and Mick.  Would make sense since we've seen that Ketch seems to be frustrated with being a lap dog.  Dean/Ketch vs Sam/BMOL.

Not all conflict has to be bad because both sides are not operating for nefarious purposes. They both want to rid the world of monsters and then each side could come to a realization that each method has something to offer and then both eventually merging.  Neither side is right or wrong.

But since the brothers can't be sperated for longer than 30 seconds, how exactly do you tell this story without bad conflict (secrets and lies) or once again sending the message that its only Dean that has to change?

3

Share Post


Link to post

For me it was Fallen Idols. Which I hated. Then again at the end of Point of No Return? when Dean said something about having to accept Sam`s choices. Then Bobby in a later episode told Dean what a hero Sam has always been - making it sound like Dean was a nobody and had never been "running into burning buildings since he was a kid" - and how hard they were on him. I remember thinking: when? Then Death comes and tells Dean that it is all about Sam and Dean needs to step aside. And this is what he does in the Finale, he accepts his place as the nobody next to the hero. 

To me it was like saying that when in Season 4 in the Siren episode Sam said he was smarter, stronger, better, he was right. And Dean needed to learn the lesson to accept that. I hated this message in Season 5. Because accepting your are apparently inferior is such a great character arc. Especially for someone who has severe self worth issues. What they should learn is that yup, they truly are worth less than others. Urgh. 

Also to come back to the Bobby thing a bit, I think if Dean had been in Sam`s place in the Season 5 Opener, then this diatribe wouldn`t have been demon-possession but pure Bobby himself. And people would have cheered it. Conversely, if that had been Sam instead of Dean in the Season 4 Finale, Bobby would have never broken out the "boohoo, princess" speech. Such things are reserved for Dean since apparently he deserves those and "responds" to them. Sam is to be treated with more respect and care. 

That`s when the Bobby character died for me. Hence, his death in Season 7 didn`t make me feel anything.

Quote

I have to admit I'm really concerned about Deans' role going forward.  Because unless the writers are planning to split Sam and Dean up (and we know they're not), unless Sam keeps his work secret how do you actually go about writing their different points of view?

Yup, I fear Dean will be in the wrong again for doing or not doing whatever. 

Edited by Aeryn13.
4

Share Post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Yup, I fear Dean will be in the wrong again for doing or not doing whatever. 

IA. The writing is on the wall. Again. Even if Sam keeps secrets from him, it will be because he's too stubborn to listen, so it's Dean's fault that people have to keep things from him, instead of anything that Sam could have possibly done wrong. The Mary debacle has shown me that.

And I love the whole Dean is always "shown" to be right in the end thing. Big deal when his word is only doubted again the next time, and blame is shifted and guilt applied again and the next time, so that he has to join in, in spite of how he really feels and in spite of any convictions and/or any misgivings that he might have, again and the next time, and then the topper-made to apologize for being wrong again and the next time-right before he's supposedly "shown" to be right in the end-which I don't think these writers even realize that they do-because why then, aren't his instincts and/or penchant for being right in the end(according to some) ever respected or considered the next time around? AND not only that, but he continues to be the one named "stubborn" by the writers and even other actors in their interviews on the show while Sam is named kind and understanding and empathetic but rarely, if ever stubborn. "He means well" is the toughest the writers on this show ever get on him and still some in this fandom complain about that. I can't think of one time that Sam has been labelled as stubborn, but if he's usually shown to be "wrong" and Dean is usually shown to be "right"(again as some in this fandom think) doesn't that make a good case for Sam being stubborn too? And yet WHEN has Sam ever been called stubborn by anyone connected with this show via any means.

I hated that interview with Samantha Smith with every fiber of my being for reinforcing the stereotypes and because it greatly reinforced my feeling that the writing is on the wall for Dean to be painted with the he's just being stubborn/childish/won't admit others are adults, too brush again. Well, we got the apology from him for being the latter two in this last episode. I bet their saving the "stubborn apology" for him to reiterate to Sam(because he did that earlier in this season, didn't he?). Ugh. The more things change, the more they stay the same with the so-called writers on this show. The personnel might change, but the blueprint never does. Man, what I wouldn't give for them to just separate the brothers amicably for a period of time and base it more on differing ideologies than on some kind of contrived bad blood/angst between any of the family members and while still keeping the family unit a unit in spite of any physical separation. The time is here and ripe for it with this storyline right now, and for character growth for everyone too. But it's not going to happen and I know that because these writers are not bold enough. They are too fearful to even try to break that mold or tear up the blueprint in that way. Dean being given a supernaturally-connected myth arc role that was followed through on and not presented as just another tease or red herring is as bold and non-conformist as any of them have ever gone, IMO; and hey, look at that, the fandom didn't desert them; in fact some came back, only to disappear when it was apparent that they were going back to the blueprint. But hey, it only took them 9 seasons to make that happen, so maybe we can expect something truly different and bold from them again in S18, right?

Although, honestly and IMO, Dabb could still make the BMoL work boldly and fearlessly in this way, but I don't think that he has the balls. AND he'd have to write both co-leads AS co-leads at the same time instead of taking turns at relegating one of them to strictly the supportive family member role. Maybe it's just that they're simply not talented enough to do that, though. I mean, before this episode it seemed to me as if we were getting Mother Mary leading everyone around while Dean AND Sam were both put into the somewhat supportive family member role. But now that Dean has been firmly put back into his original, usual, narrow and all too confining role with mom, it's time for him to be relegated back to that role with Sam, too. Oh joy. So much for this Deanfan to look forward to. Not.

Edited by Myrelle.
1

Share Post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

For me it was Fallen Idols. Which I hated. Then again at the end of Point of No Return? when Dean said something about having to accept Sam`s choices. Then Bobby in a later episode told Dean what a hero Sam has always been - making it sound like Dean was a nobody and had never been "running into burning buildings since he was a kid" - and how hard they were on him. I remember thinking: when? Then Death comes and tells Dean that it is all about Sam and Dean needs to step aside. And this is what he does in the Finale, he accepts his place as the nobody next to the hero. 

To me it was like saying that when in Season 4 in the Siren episode Sam said he was smarter, stronger, better, he was right. And Dean needed to learn the lesson to accept that. I hated this message in Season 5. Because accepting your are apparently inferior is such a great character arc. Especially for someone who has severe self worth issues. What they should learn is that yup, they truly are worth less than others. Urgh. 

Also to come back to the Bobby thing a bit, I think if Dean had been in Sam`s place in the Season 5 Opener, then this diatribe wouldn`t have been demon-possession but pure Bobby himself. And people would have cheered it. Conversely, if that had been Sam instead of Dean in the Season 4 Finale, Bobby would have never broken out the "boohoo, princess" speech. Such things are reserved for Dean since apparently he deserves those and "responds" to them. Sam is to be treated with more respect and care. 

That`s when the Bobby character died for me. Hence, his death in Season 7 didn`t make me feel anything.

Yup, I fear Dean will be in the wrong again for doing or not doing whatever. 

Technically, they both had to accept each other's choices through out the series at some point.  Sam had no other choice than to accept the fact that Dean made that deal with the demon to save him.  He didn't agree with it, but he moved on and decided he needed to help Dean as best he could.  Just because Bobby tells Dean what a hero Sam has been, doesn't mean he doesn't also think of Dean as a hero.  I took this to mean that Bobby has grown to see Sam as his own hero as well and not just an extension of the little brother of Dean.  He sees them as the potential to be equal hunters.  Dean has always been the leader of the two and has usually been the one to take charge.  Accepting someone else's choices doesn't really have anything to do with taking the blame for an incident.  You can love someone, disagree with what they're doing, be right about it, and still be able to move on from it and keep the relationship with that person.  Accept it for what it is.  I guess I just don't see how accepting someone else's choices means Dean is accepting all the blame for the apocalypse.

 

To me,  Sam was referring to his 'demon blood powers' when he was talking about being stronger and better than Dean in season 4.  From my point of view, these powers proved to be more harmful than good when he killed Lilith and brought about the apocalypse with these powers.  Kind of showing that Sam's 'gift' wasn't better than Dean in the end.  It didn't bring anything good to the table.  If he had of been successful in stopping the apocalypse with his powers, I could see the point.  In the end, it wasn't his actual powers that stopped anything.

I doubt the real Bobby would have said anything like that to Dean.  He has said that Dean is his favourite.  There is NO way he would cut him off.  Not to mention, Dean did have a hand in breaking one of the seals and Bobby didn't say anything.

2

Share Post


Link to post
Quote

I doubt the real Bobby would have said anything like that to Dean.  He has said that Dean is his favourite. 

I have no doubt. And to me "Sam is a better hunter" was the far superior compliment than being Bobby`s so-called favourite. And since I believe Bobby was harsher with Dean than he ever would be with Sam, it`s not like the favouritism manifested in a positive way onscreen for me. 

Quote

I hated that interview with Samantha Smith with every fiber of my being for reinforcing the stereotypes and because it greatly reinforced my feeling that the writing is on the wall for Dean to be painted with the he's just being stubborn/childish/won't admit others are adults, too brush again.

Yup. When Dean lies, it is because he is horrible and doesn`t trust people enough. When others lie to him, it is because they know Dean won`t agree with what they have to say. And he is not allowed to do that. Hence, it`s his own damn fault. If he was a good little puppet and people could trust him to always roll over on the spot and validate everything they say and never have an opinion of his own, they could be free to always tell him the truth.   

2

Share Post


Link to post
4 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I have no doubt. And to me "Sam is a better hunter" was the far superior compliment than being Bobby`s so-called favourite. And since I believe Bobby was harsher with Dean than he ever would be with Sam, it`s not like the favouritism manifested in a positive way onscreen for me. 

 

At the time Bobby said that, Sam was souless and ruthless and Dean had been out of the game for a year.  He even said "better hunter at the moment", which means "at the moment" and not overall and always.

3

Share Post


Link to post

Mary has been out of the game 30 years and she got plenty of plug as a super-hunter. Dean was out one year and got mocked for being rusty all over the place. Then when he got out of Purgatory, after non-stop combat. apparently he wasn`t anything special hunting-wise.

Such stuff just bugs me. No matter the situation, they will just find a way where another character can come out better than Dean. If that other character is Sam. Or Mary now. Or Charlie. Yes, I honestly do ask myself what the character or the actor has done to inspire so much hatred from the majority of the writers. Because that is what I get from their writing.

1

Share Post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

IA. The writing is on the wall. Again. Even if Sam keeps secrets from him, it will be because he's too stubborn to listen, so it's Dean's fault that people have to keep things from him, instead of anything that Sam could have possibly done wrong. The Mary debacle has shown me that.

And I love the whole Dean is always "shown" to be right in the end thing. Big deal when his word is only doubted again the next time, and blame is shifted and guilt applied again and the next time, so that he has to join in, in spite of how he really feels and in spite of any convictions and/or any misgivings that he might have, again and the next time, and then the topper-made to apologize for being wrong again and the next time-right before he's supposedly "shown" to be right in the end-which I don't think these writers even realize that they do-because why then, aren't his instincts and/or penchant for being right in the end(according to some) ever respected or considered the next time around? AND not only that, but he continues to be the one named "stubborn" by the writers and even other actors in their interviews on the show while Sam is named kind and understanding and empathetic but rarely, if ever stubborn. "He means well" is the toughest the writers on this show ever get on him and still some in this fandom complain about that. I can't think of one time that Sam has been labelled as stubborn, but if he's usually shown to be "wrong" and Dean is usually shown to be "right"(again as some in this fandom think) doesn't that make a good case for Sam being stubborn too? And yet WHEN has Sam ever been called stubborn by anyone connected with this show via any means.

I hated that interview with Samantha Smith with every fiber of my being for reinforcing the stereotypes and because it greatly reinforced my feeling that the writing is on the wall for Dean to be painted with the he's just being stubborn/childish/won't admit others are adults, too brush again. Well, we got the apology from him for being the latter two in this last episode. I bet their saving the "stubborn apology" for him to reiterate to Sam(because he did that earlier in this season, didn't he?). Ugh. The more things change, the more they stay the same with the so-called writers on this show. The personnel might change, but the blueprint never does. Man, what I wouldn't give for them to just separate the brothers amicably for a period of time and base it more on differing ideologies than on some kind of contrived bad blood/angst between any of the family members and while still keeping the family unit a unit in spite of any physical separation. The time is here and ripe for it with this storyline right now, and for character growth for everyone too. But it's not going to happen and I know that because these writers are not bold enough. They are too fearful to even try to break that mold or tear up the blueprint in that way. Dean being given a supernaturally-connected myth arc role that was followed through on and not presented as just another tease or red herring is as bold and non-conformist as any of them have ever gone, IMO; and hey, look at that, the fandom didn't desert them; in fact some came back, only to disappear when it was apparent that they were going back to the blueprint. But hey, it only took them 9 seasons to make that happen, so maybe we can expect something truly different and bold from them again in S18, right?

Although, honestly and IMO, Dabb could still make the BMoL work boldly and fearlessly in this way, but I don't think that he has the balls. AND he'd have to write both co-leads AS co-leads at the same time instead of taking turns at relegating one of them to strictly the supportive family member role. Maybe it's just that they're simply not talented enough to do that, though. I mean, before this episode it seemed to me as if we were getting Mother Mary leading everyone around while Dean AND Sam were both put into the somewhat supportive family member role. But now that Dean has been firmly put back into his original, usual, narrow and all too confining role with mom, it's time for him to be relegated back to that role with Sam, too. Oh joy. So much for this Deanfan to look forward to. Not.

I agree with all this.  Its why I don't think they'll go the secrets and lies route.  Its easier for the writers to have Sam state why he's working for the brits and pull out the "let me be an adult" when Dean doesn't agree forcing him to take shift his thinking to Sam's POV instead of allowing Dean to maintain his convictions. 

I really think the Mary issues isn't going to be brought up again because it usually isn't after Dean gets put in his place and apologizes.  The burden is always on Dean to change his behavior, its never on the other person. 

Mary working with the Brits in secret isn't wrong, Dean's wrong for not being okay with being lied too is how the narrative framed that ep.

I also can see them taking Dean's leadership role away and putting Sam in charge of the Men of Letters.  SuperSam seems to be the Dabb/Berens MO, and Im guessing it won't be long before Sam is the prize Winchester for the Brits and Dean Who? 

56 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Accepting someone else's choices doesn't really have anything to do with taking the blame for an incident.

  Except on this show it does.  Sam seems to get upset that Dean didn't trust him.  He never acknowledged that he had to change and work to earn back Dean's trust.  When Sam announced that he went to Ruby because Dean was bossy why was Dean not allowed a counter arguement her and to defend himself.  Why wasn't he given a speech where he pointed out all times he gave Ruby a chance.  In Heaven and Hell, getting the angels and demons together was Sam's idea and Dean went along with that and Ruby had a big part.  Dean even told Sam to keep his secrets just stop lying.   There were multiple times in s4 where Dean did accept Sam's choices.   By allowed Dean to voice none of that suggests you want to frame the narrative to have the audience accept that yup, it really was Dean being bossy and not Sam's flaws.

Rarely, does the show actually say Sam messing up was due to his flaws, but usually due to others flaws.  Ruby- dean was bossy.  Trials- Dean doesn't think Sam is capable, and Dean hurt Sam by not putting him first.  

Sam's speech in Sacrifice even came across as the biggest reason Sam feels he let Dean down is because Dean didn't accept his choices.  "What happens when you decide I can't be trusted."  Puts the burden on trusting Sam on Dean. 

Edited by ILoveReading.
0

Share Post


Link to post

I think that Dean has accepted Sam's choice to lie to him sometimes. Because he had to accept it. Because Sam does. Still. So what else can he do except consider the idea that Sam might be or could be lying to him sometimes. And yes, this isn't conducive to trust at all, but it still has to be considered if the lying/hiding things continues. Once he gets his emotions/passions under control, Dean then becomes completely pragmatic about any situation. He was taught to do this from childhood. It's pretty heady, complex, and fascinating stuff and it's why I love the character so much.

That Sacrifice speech was a joke if we were supposed to see it as any form of an apology from Sam, IMO. It was all blame-shifting again without acknowledging that he'd earned Dean's distrust concerning some things AND it tried to tell us that Dean was wrong for trusting others over Sam, the problem being that Dean wasn't wrong to trust those others. He wouldn't even have escaped Purgatory if he hadn't trusted Benny. And this was never, ever pointed out at any time To. Sam. by anyone, for that matter.

I, too, blame the writing. It doesn't seem like they are really that interested in giving us Dean's POV as regards defending himself and his thoughts and feelings and actions in these talks that the brothers have-and now with the mother, too. I don't know what their problem is with that.

Edited by Myrelle.
1

Share Post


Link to post
1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

 

  Except on this show it does.  Sam seems to get upset that Dean didn't trust him.  He never acknowledged that he had to change and work to earn back Dean's trust.  When Sam announced that he went to Ruby because Dean was bossy why was Dean not allowed a counter arguement her and to defend himself.  Why wasn't he given a speech where he pointed out all times he gave Ruby a chance.  In Heaven and Hell, getting the angels and demons together was Sam's idea and Dean went along with that and Ruby had a big part.  Dean even told Sam to keep his secrets just stop lying.   There were multiple times in s4 where Dean did accept Sam's choices.   By allowed Dean to voice none of that suggests you want to frame the narrative to have the audience accept that yup, it really was Dean being bossy and not Sam's flaws.

Rarely, does the show actually say Sam messing up was due to his flaws, but usually due to others flaws.  Ruby- dean was bossy.  Trials- Dean doesn't think Sam is capable, and Dean hurt Sam by not putting him first.  

Sam's speech in Sacrifice even came across as the biggest reason Sam feels he let Dean down is because Dean didn't accept his choices.  "What happens when you decide I can't be trusted."  Puts the burden on trusting Sam on Dean. 

I don't recall Dean being blamed for the apocalypse and Sam's choices because Dean was bossy.  Sam blamed himself overall for his decisions.  If he didn't, he would have defended himself against those who were blaming him like demon bobby or the hunters and thrown Dean under the bus.  He wouldn't be saying "I started the apocalypse" to the therapist and the hunters like he did.  Notice, he didn't say Dean.  He didn't say 'we'.  He said 'I'.   Dean also never said he himself started the apocalypse.  Only Sam took the blame for starting the apocalypse.

Edited by Reganne. Reason: adding something
2

Share Post


Link to post

Since I can't seem to not be wordy - sorry - I'm bolding things for those who want to Too long:Didn't read this. But also please feel free to skip entirely if you wish. Hopefully this will get all of my usual points out of the way for this thread, and then in the future, I will refer to this post.

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I have no doubt. And to me "Sam is a better hunter" was the far superior compliment than being Bobby`s so-called favourite. And since I believe Bobby was harsher with Dean than he ever would be with Sam, it`s not like the favouritism manifested in a positive way onscreen for me. 

I agree with @Reganne here that what Bobby said was not a compliment to Sam. And all of the other things happening in season 6 with Bobby and Sam supported that. First, despite Dean almost immediately knowing that something was not right about Sam, Bobby couldn't tell - in any way - for an entire year. So Bobby couldn't tell the difference between Sam with a soul and Sam without a soul? How is that a compliment to Sam? Worse Bobby even told Dean when Dean expressed concern about Sam's obviously sketchy actions (paraphrase) "Well, maybe this is just Sam now" complete with shrug in his voice. Wow, so maybe Sam is just a ruthless, coldly practical killer who let Dean get turned into a vampire. I'm really not seeing how this is a compliment to Sam. Like at all. But obviously miles vary.

And then when Sam actually came back as Sam - when he got his soul back - then Bobby is somehow not trusting him anymore and avoiding Sam, because soulless Sam tried to kill him. Somewhat understandable, I guess, but neither Sam nor Dean acted that way after Bobby was possessed and the demon left. It was as if Bobby thought that Sam was enough like soulless Sam that he couldn't trust him anymore - yeah, that's a nice comment on Sam.

In addition, if that wasn't evidence enough that Bobby's statement wasn't true or complimentary, his supposed compliment wasn't even shown to be factual. "Unforgiven" showed pretty clearly that soulless Sam was not a good hunter, since on that case he actually left behind more monsters than the case started with. Arguably it's easier to appear to be a "better hunter" if 1) you don't have to sleep and 2) you don't care who you happen to kill while hunting. That doesn't actually mean that it's true. And it wasn't.

What Bobby's comment implied to me was that Bobby didn't really know Sam all that well compared to how he knew Dean, nor did he care to delve below the surface of what he thought Sam was since he couldn't even distinguish a difference between Sam and soulless Sam, but again, I suppose that miles vary.

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

When Sam announced that he went to Ruby because Dean was bossy why was Dean not allowed a counter arguement her and to defend himself. 

6 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

To me the narrative did because it shifted the responsibility from Sam making choices to "he only did that because Dean was mean and bossy". Sam didn`t really need to change his stance. He was the big hero he thought he would be in Season 4. Only Dean had to change and be more supportive.

I have studied that dialogue from "Fallen Idols" a lot, and I've never quite understood where the assertion came from that Sam called Dean "bossy." Sam never did at any point in that conversation. Sam actually admitted some hard truths about himself in that speech. He told Dean that he went with Ruby, because Ruby made him feel strong, and not like the little brother. But we also know that Sam knows that his trusting Ruby was wrong, and his feeling of strength was an illusion, so I'm not getting as to how Sam is supposedly shifting blame here - or that the narrative is. I'm not sure how that is a reflection on Dean at all.

Dean could've been the most awesome brother in the entire world and a younger brother might still feel like the little brother, because that's the way family dynamics work. And who cares if Dean was bossy? So what? He was the older brother. It was his job to be bossy when they were younger to make sure Sam was safe. If Dean hadn't been bossy, he would've been a terrible older brother and surrogate parent (which John made him). Like parents who let kids do whatever they want, because they don't want to take the tough road of maybe their children not liking them by making rules for them. Again I see no supposed "blame" of Dean here. The onus was on Sam to not feel bossed around, and he chose a really bad way to do this, and that was what was acknowledged by Sam and the narrative. Especially since from then on in the show, the apocalypse is firmly blamed on Sam and his choices.

I actually think the show was letting Dean off the hook, because not only was it showing that Sam made "bad choices" by choosing Ruby - and reminding us of this over and over - but after that, Dean's "bad choices" in making the deal in the first place - and what I feel should have been Sam's legitimate reasons to be angry about this - were entirely ignored or twisted into something else like being about Sam's ego and hubris. Sam wasn't allowed to legitimately question Dean's decision, he was made to spout vague insults about how Dean was "weak" and how he Sam was going to be the one to do it instead... and of course then show that he, Sam, was wrong about this since it was his hubris in questioning Dean that lead to Lucifer rising, not that maybe Sam had a legitimate beef in that Dean's decision lead to the first seal being broken.

Quote

Why wasn't he given a speech where he pointed out all times he gave Ruby a chance.  In Heaven and Hell, getting the angels and demons together was Sam's idea and Dean went along with that and Ruby had a big part.  Dean even told Sam to keep his secrets just stop lying.   There were multiple times in s4 where Dean did accept Sam's choices.   By allowed Dean to voice none of that suggests you want to frame the narrative to have the audience accept that yup, it really was Dean being bossy and not Sam's flaws.

Because in this instance Dean was wrong, and Dean pointing out that he was right about those other things would've just muddied the entire point(s) of this episode. Which were 1) Yes, Sam made bad choices and he did so because he was trying to be independent and chose  the wrong way to do that 2) Sam understands this now 3) Even though Sam understands this and acknowledges his wrong-doing that doesn't give Dean the right to endanger people's lives when they are working on a job, so 4) Dean can be angry all he wants about what Sam did, but if they are going to work together, Dean has to let Sam "grow up" and quit it with the double-secret probation on the job.

Nowhere in all of that was anything about Dean "accepting Sam's choices." It was about Sam admitting that his choices were wrong but now they had to move on and part of that moving on was Dean not looking at Sam in the "little brother" role anymore, because that wasn't working for them anymore. As I've noted before, Sam's age now is bout the same time that Dean figured out that his relationship with John was no longer working for him either and that it had to change. And remember Sam didn't know the entire truth of why Dean came back, and being that he's generally rather forgiving, he doesn't know that Dean came back partially under duress. So Sam's already working with faulty facts when he comes into this discussion.

Now I'm not saying that the episode communicated all of those points perfectly or even well, but to me they were still there and made sense based on the rest of the season.

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

For me it was Fallen Idols. Which I hated. Then again at the end of Point of No Return? when Dean said something about having to accept Sam`s choices. Then Bobby in a later episode told Dean what a hero Sam has always been - making it sound like Dean was a nobody and had never been "running into burning buildings since he was a kid" - and how hard they were on him. I remember thinking: when? Then Death comes and tells Dean that it is all about Sam and Dean needs to step aside. And this is what he does in the Finale, he accepts his place as the nobody next to the hero. 

At the end of "Point of No Return" Dean said that he had to have faith in Sam again. There was nothing at all about accepting Sam's choices. There was Dean saying that he needed to accept that Sam should make his own choices - that it wasn't Dean's job anymore to keep Sam "on the straight and narrow" - and have faith that Sam would make a good choice, but that's entirely different from accepting Sam's actual choices, to me anyway. I thought the dialogue was pretty great myself, because, Dean was even saying almost the opposite of being accepting of Sam's choices in my opinion. If you look closely at what Dean was actually saying, the message was pretty much:  "I'm acknowledging that you are old enough to make your own damn decisions. It's no longer my job to make sure you do the right thing. But I can have some faith in you that you'll make the right decisions again." In other words, Dean was putting the responsibility of Sam's choices on Sam and not on himself.

As for Bobby's observation, that was a little clunky, but considering that how badly Sam messed up, I'm guessing the writers thought we needed a reminder that Sam could do the right thing sometimes? Why would Bobby need to remind himself, Dean, or the audience that Dean could do the right thing? The entire history of the show has been showing us how Dean sacrifices for Sam and everybody else. That was my interpretation anyway. And they had been hard on Sam, in my opinion. Dean had even gotten onto the bandwagon that Sam had started the apocalypse - despite all the help that Sam had in doing that - and maybe hadn't been seeing that Sam was trying to make up for that. Not to mention all the past "you abandoned the family" crap that had recently come up again, still, some more that it was well past time to give it a rest on. My opinion only on that.

For me, the season 5 finale was about Sam making amends for what he did, and I didn't mind that Dean wasn't a huge part of that. According to the narrative, this was now Sam's mistake, so to me it was fair that mostly Sam fix it. Even then, Sam didn't "fix it" right off the bat - he lost his initial battle with Lucifer. And Dean didn't just step aside and just let Sam do it as Death said. He went there to help. Even if he did let Sam fall into the hole as Death said, he still was there. So he was letting Sam make his choice - even if Dean himself didn't like it - but that didn't mean that he wasn't going to be there to see it through with Sam and make it easier for Sam to go through with his choice.

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Rarely, does the show actually say Sam messing up was due to his flaws, but usually due to others flaws. 

If that is so why did we hear throughout many seasons after Lucifer was raised the steady drumbeat of Sam's "bad choices" being the cause of the apocalypse? And it wasn't just one or two, but many many characters: angels, demons, hunters, friends, foe: it was all Sam's "bad choices." No mention of the angels' (including Castiel's) bad choices or their total manipulation. No mention that not only was Sam manipulated by Ruby, but Dean and Castiel were manipulated by the angels. Nope, it was Sam and his ego and his "bad choices." And to me, even bringing in the "bossy" thing isn't necessarily a valid point. 1) it was only "mentioned" - but not even really - one time, and 2) Being bossy isn't necessarily a flaw. Sometimes it's an asset. Many leaders by definition are bossy - they give commands and boss people around. And Dean's being bossy is validated, because Sam asks to be "bossed around" all the time through his actions when he asks Dean, "So, what's the plan?"

I really don't get that the show is showing Dean's being "bossy" as negative. I think the show is generally showing the exact opposite in fact. If only people did what Dean told them to do, everything would be fine. So miles really really vary here.

With the Darkness, again it was only Sam. Even God says that demon Dean wasn't really a problem... it was just Sam and his need to have Dean not die... which is really interesting, because when Dean did the same thing in reference to Sam - twice (the deal and Gadreel) - somehow everything that happened was still somehow Sam's fault or Sam would do the exact same thing.

I'm not seeing where in any of that, things aren't being blamed on Sam.

6 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

They did it again in Season 11 "we released the darkness". Oh, so Dean gets to share in the blame. Yet the resolution according to Crowley was "God`s powers and kinda them". Well, Dean, you get the blame but none of the credit. Super.

Sam said that - except that's not exactly what he said. He said "we did this," the "this" being the situation they created where they try to save each other over anyone else, and Sam was right - and Dean started that whole thing, and even though Dean said they should stop, Dean started it up again with Gadreel. After complaining when Sam did stop. Of course that was all written terribly to make Sam's supposed "healthy" decision look awful, so that he too would make the same bad decision again to risk the world for Dean and because when Sam did it, it was wrong, he'd get blamed for everything again. And I hate to harp on this, but "they" blamed Sam. Sam said that the Darkness (specifically, not a general "this") was his fault. God said that it was Sam's fault, and Metatron said only that "they" were trying to fix it, so there was no argument by Metatron against it being only Sam's fault. So I completely disagree that it was blamed on Dean. The canon actually says that it wasn't Dean's fault (via the word of God, literally).

As for the resolution, Amara confirms that Dean gave her what she needed most - meaning he was the reason she stopped her quest to destroy the world. And considering that God put the care of that world in Dean's - *pause* and oh yeah, I guess also Sam's - hands, I'm pretty sure that Dean is getting quite a bit of the credit. If we're looking at God (and Amara) vs Crowley - of the two I'm taking God as the more reliable, or at the very least the more powerful and the one with more clout.

1

Share Post


Link to post
Quote

Worse Bobby even told Dean when Dean expressed concern about Sam's obviously sketchy actions (paraphrase) "Well, maybe this is just Sam now" complete with shrug in his voice. Wow, so maybe Sam is just a ruthless, coldly practical killer who let Dean get turned into a vampire. 

And when Dean said it gave him the creeps, Bobby was like "who cares, Sam is your job so shut up and do it". I could just feel the love. Just like "you`re not a real person."  

Quote

I have studied that dialogue from "Fallen Idols" a lot, and I've never quite understood where the assertion came from that Sam called Dean "bossy." Sam never did at any point in that conversation. Sam actually admitted some hard truths about himself in that speech. He told Dean that he went with Ruby, because Ruby made him feel strong, and not like the little brother.

He said he went with Ruby to get away from Dean. Like, wow, even when Dean was in hell? That is some impressive smothering Dean managed to do, even from the torture rack. And yes, I know that Sam said "it`s my fault" but he immediately followed it up with a "but..." So just like the speech in Sacrifice, to me the dialogue was more like "it`s my fault...but it`s really yours."  

Quote

Because in this instance Dean was wrong, and Dean pointing out that he was right about those other things would've just muddied the entire point(s) of this episode. 

Dean never gets arguments to defend himself with. If he gets to say anything at all in such scenes, it`s strawman stuff, really easy to shoot down.

The construct of the whole episode was "Dean is so horrible and controlling, Sam must fight back against this tyranny and put him in his place". So of course in the end Dean had to sheepishly apologize and promise to change. And thus every legitimate issue he had previously was swallowed down the drain.

Just like they did with the Mary-apology in the last ep. He gets to air some legitimate grievances. And then has to apologize for shit he never even said or implied, Important thing, he was put in his place again. No change, from Season 5 to Season 12. Remarkable. And sad. 

Quote

For me, the season 5 finale was about Sam making amends for what he did, and I didn't mind that Dean wasn't a huge part of that. 

And since for me the narrative shifted the true blame almost wholesale on Dean, you might understand that I hated that - in my eyes - he didn`t get ANY part of the redemption. Just again put in his little inconsequential sidekick place. A role I hate with a passion. 

1

Share Post


Link to post

Going back to the discussion about what are they going to do about Dean going forward, I think they may be setting up a reason to see very little of him in the short run. I believe that Jensen was on paternity leave for six weeks, some of which was holiday time, but not all. If that is the case, then we can't blame the writers. BUT, remember that Dabb wrote that wonderful episode "Bloodlines", so in my mind, he much prefers focusing on a group such as the BMoL and their toys to the humdrum Winchesters. The manner in which Mother Mary has been portrayed plays right into that thinking - that she would abandon her own sons to work with the BMoL and try to bring them into "the new way/correct way of thinking". And if Sam is not playing a long game, then I have lost all respect for his intuition and intelligence.

Unfortunately, I agree with much of what has been said here regarding the writers' treatment of their so-called lead, Dean. And I wouldn't be surprised if it gets even worse going forward with Dabb in charge. I can't even describe how sad that makes me feel. :(

2

Share Post


Link to post
35 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Going back to the discussion about what are they going to do about Dean going forward, I think they may be setting up a reason to see very little of him in the short run. I believe that Jensen was on paternity leave for six weeks, some of which was holiday time, but not all. If that is the case, then we can't blame the writers.

The episode that his extra week of time effected was the one aired last Thursday.

2

Share Post


Link to post

I was under the assumption that he didn't return as soon as others after the holiday break. As I recall Jared was teasing him about being in warm Austin while he was freezing in Vancouver in January. But if you are correct, then having Sam joining the BMoL makes even less sense to me.

1

Share Post


Link to post
4 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

I was under the assumption that he didn't return as soon as others after the holiday break. As I recall Jared was teasing him about being in warm Austin while he was freezing in Vancouver in January. But if you are correct, then having Sam joining the BMoL makes even less sense to me.

I'm pretty sure the teasing was during the filming of The Raid. The picture Jared tweeted had snow in the background and looked like the location of the BMoL base. I'm guessing they were shooting the scene of Sam coming to meet Mary that day.

2

Share Post


Link to post
1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I have studied that dialogue from "Fallen Idols" a lot, and I've never quite understood where the assertion came from that Sam called Dean "bossy." Sam never did at any point in that conversation. Sam actually admitted some hard truths about himself in that speech. He told Dean that he went with Ruby, because Ruby made him feel strong, and not like the little brothe

 

For me the perception comes from Jared's performance more than the dialogue.

I always thought he played it as Sam being really defensive and slightly manipulative yet saying to Dean it wasn't his fault yet saying if he had just let him grow up he wouldn't have gone off with Ruby. So for me that is Sam putting the responsibility onto Dean for him going off with Ruby.

Dean is a buffoon and throughout the episode which IMO was written to support the notion that Dean was kind of a bully to Sam which is why Sam went off with Ruby in the first place.

Ugh I hate that episode so very very much. It's horribly written and yes poorly acted by both Jared and Jensen. That should have never seen the light of day.

1

Share Post


Link to post
5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm pretty sure the teasing was during the filming of The Raid. The picture Jared tweeted had snow in the background and looked like the location of the BMoL base. I'm guessing they were shooting the scene of Sam coming to meet Mary that day.

You are probably correct and most of Jensen's time off was "holiday" time for all. But then I would ask why did we have an earlier episode in which the writer sends Dean off in the middle of the episode never to be seen again until the end of it???

1

Share Post


Link to post
6 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

You are probably correct and most of Jensen's time off was "holiday" time for all. But then I would ask why did we have an earlier episode in which the writer sends Dean off in the middle of the episode never to be seen again until the end of it???

I really don't know what happened there, TBH, I think it was just a guffaw. It could be there was a deleted scene that explains Dean's absence? Or it could be something was scripted they ran out of time to shoot and figured the plot stayed in tact and it wouldn't be worth the extra money to pick that scene up? Or it could just simply be an inexperienced writer not keeping track of his characters? It could also be that Jensen asked for some last-minute time off?

There's really so many factors that I hesitate to say it was a deliberate slight to Dean.

Edited by DittyDotDot.
1

Share Post


Link to post
Just now, FlickChick said:

You are probably correct and most of Jensen's time off was "holiday" time for all. But then I would ask why did we have an earlier episode in which the writer sends Dean off in the middle of the episode never to be seen again until the end of it???

I'm not entirely convinced that all of Dean's being kind of absent this season is because of Jensen's twins. The babies didn't come until December.  American Nightmare was written probably in the summer given it aired 4th in the season. Maybe Jensen needed extra time off for some reason but it's shitty writing that takes the co-lead off screen for almost 20 minutes without adequate explanation.

2

Share Post


Link to post
1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I'm not entirely convinced that all of Dean's being kind of absent this season is because of Jensen's twins. The babies didn't come until December.  American Nightmare was written probably in the summer given it aired 4th in the season. Maybe Jensen needed extra time off for some reason but it's shitty writing that takes the co-lead off screen for almost 20 minutes without adequate explanation.

Well we know that Dabb never promised the Dean fans a rose garden. *sorry for the sarcasm*. I really am beginning to wonder what's going on. :(

0

Share Post


Link to post
17 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Well we know that Dabb never promised the Dean fans a rose garden. *sorry for the sarcasm*. I really am beginning to wonder what's going on. :(

Dabb confounds me when it comes to Dean.

 

I'll highlight the episodes that I think are good Dean episodes.
 

Quote

 

4.06 Yellow Fever with Daniel Loflin

4.13 After School Special with Daniel Loflin

4.19 Jump the Shark with Daniel Loflin

5.06 I Believe the Children Are Our Future with Daniel Loflin

5.11 Sam, Interrupted with Daniel Loflin

5.16 Dark Side of the Moon with Daniel Loflin

5.19 Hammer of the Gods with Daniel Loflin

6.04 Weekend at Bobby's with Daniel Loflin

6.07 Family Matters with Daniel Loflin

6.13 Unforgiven with Daniel Loflin

6.18 Frontierland with Daniel Loflin and Jackson Stewart (story)

7.03 The Girl Next Door with Daniel Loflin

7.08 Season Seven, Time for a Wedding! with Daniel Loflin

7.14 Plucky Pennywhistle's Magic Menagerie with Daniel Loflin

7.22 There Will Be Blood with Daniel Loflin

8.02 What's Up, Tiger Mommy? with Daniel Loflin

8.08 Hunteri Heroici -

8.14 Trial and Error

8.22 Clip Show

9.02 Devil May Care

9.10 Road Trip

9.20 Bloodlines

9.22 Stairway to Heaven *

10.02 Reichenbach

10.09 The Things We Left Behind

10.17 Inside Man

10.22 The Prisoner

11.02 Form and Void

11.10 The Devil in the Details

11.15 Beyond the Mat with John Bring

11.17 Red Meat with Robert Berens

11.23 Alpha and Omega *

12.01 Keep Calm and Carry On

 

Like he's written some incredibly strong Dean episodes like The Prisoner and Riechenbach which were badass/crazy Dean or he writes him in comical episodes like Yellow Fever which IMO Jensen makes a silk purse out of a sow's ear and gives Dean a lot more nuance than IMO the writing necessarily provides  I wonder if the eps that that were Dabb/Loflin that I think were pretty great were that Loflin wrote Dean better than Dabb. I dunno. Then there are episodes like After School Special in which I have no idea who that guy with Dean Winchester's name was. 

I feel like all the ones I've highlighted that Dean acted like Dean, had something interesting to do, was a badass, emotional resonance in the episode or at minimum something active to do.

In s10, he seemed to like writing crazy!Dean

*Alpha and Omega - mixed feelings on this one.

0

Share Post


Link to post
7 hours ago, FlickChick said:

You are probably correct and most of Jensen's time off was "holiday" time for all. But then I would ask why did we have an earlier episode in which the writer sends Dean off in the middle of the episode never to be seen again until the end of it???

My own guess would be inexperienced writer or deleted scene, not "let's fuck over Dean's fans".  

0

Share Post


Link to post
3 minutes ago, mertensia said:

My own guess would be inexperienced writer or deleted scene, not "let's fuck over Dean's fans".  

I don't think it's about fucking over Dean fans. I'm beginning to think that Dabb et al, just don't have a story to tell for Dean currently. Not as a slight on Jensen but I think this season Dabb is all about Mary and the BMoL.  I'm putting it out there now that I think the spinoff will be MoL with Mary joining them full time.

2

Share Post


Link to post
8 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Dean never gets arguments to defend himself with. If he gets to say anything at all in such scenes, it`s strawman stuff, really easy to shoot down.

This is no different than how Sam gets treated though, in my opinion. All season 5 (and beyond,) Sam got: the apocalypse is your fault, because of you and your bad choices, sometimes by people (like Cas) who made similar bad choices. But Sam wasn't allowed to point that out. He couldn't argue that it was Dean who made the deal (bad choice) and therefore broke the first seal. He had to take hits like (paraphrase, but close) "Oh, you're having trust issues with a demon? Better late than never" from Dean and just say "thanks for your continued support" rather than bring up Dean's making a deal with a demon. Sam wasn't able to defend himself that Dean trusted the angels - who were equally at fault for starting the apocalypse - either whenever his trusting / listening to Ruby was brought up even though in my opinion, that would have been an equally valid point.

So while what you are saying sometimes does happen with Dean, Dean is generally validated in the end anyway in some very obvious way. The show is much more likely to have Sam end up backing down on his arguments and "see the light" of Dean's way, for example. Sam's opinions on John, his leaving home and going to school, hunting... all started out differently and now have all evolved over to Dean's way of thinking. Even saving each other no matter what - the Gadreel incident - by the end of the season, Sam's "no I wouldn't" was thrown out the window and he was made to "see the light" and go over to Dean's way of thinking, entirely invalidating his previous argument - which wasn't even allowed to be a valid defense of his (Sam's) position anyway, but instead made to be an attack that was easily seen to be untrue and was given to garner sympathy for Dean and Dean's side (otherwise what Sam said would have been true and sympathetic and Sam would've stuck to his principals at the end of the season, neither of which happened.)

So I disagree that Dean never gets to defend himself. And he gives just as good as he gets - a good example being the end of "Dark Side of the Moon" where Sam didn't get to defend himself against Dean's "since you don't see family the same way I do, you don't care about me" argument. And not only that, Dean generally gets to have Sam going over to his way of thinking rather than the other way around. Looking from the beginning of the series, Sam has compromised in terms of the way he lives his life much more than Dean has, in my opinion.

8 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

And when Dean said it gave him the creeps, Bobby was like "who cares, Sam is your job so shut up and do it".

I truthfully tried to find this conversation to see what you were talking about, but couldn't. (Sorry about that). I saw an exchange where Bobby said that Sam was Dean's "case" (as in a case to be solved) after he agreed with Dean finally that something was wrong with Sam and was going to look into it, but it wasn't like he meant that Sam was Dean's job, just that Dean had to solve what was wrong with Sam before killing him (as Dean was hinting at). Bobby was saying (paraphrase) "well, we have to figure out what's wrong with him and/or what he is and how to put him down before we do. I'll look on my end, until then he's your case" rather than the other case Dean was talking about. Dean had said that he didn't want to get into a car with him, never mind work a case with him. And Bobby did care, because he was going to research for Dean what "Sam" was and how to kill him for him. The somewhat matter of fact conversation was actually more a comment on how Bobby thought about Sam - oh well, guess he's just a case now - than Dean, in my opinion, but miles vary.

19 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Can you think of any where he wasn`t "enhanced", just human? I think Live Free comes closests because it portrayed his actions in a positive light but he wasn`t quite human. I enjoy his badassery in First Born and King of the Damned very much but he wasn`t Super!Saviour of people in those.

I don`t think there are really that many episodes where Dean saves the day. Last Season the standalones were pretty awful in that regard and this Season is not really that much better. I`m feeling like the start of Season 6 right now where "rusty" Dean had to be saved for like 10 episodes in a row.

(I meant to answer this earlier since you asked. Sorry about that.)

I agree that Dean wasn't saving everyone in "First Born" but he was badass. As for Dean saving the day, when Demented Daisy did the statistics, it came out fairly even on who did the saving with Dean coming out slightly ahead. Dean came out a bit ahead on bad guy kills and Sam came out ahead a bit on planning stuff.

As for non-enhanced Dean, I thought he was pretty badass in "Hollywood Babylon" and "Jus In Bello." He was pretty great in "Sam, Interrupted" too, working through his insanity to still save the day and get the monster and save the patients (and Sam). "Point of No Return" (killing Zachariah). And "Frontierland" and "Mommy Dearest"  I think count. Dean killed the Phoenix and then kicked a bunch of Jefferson Starship butt if I remember correctly, and then took out Eve with his plan. And then there was all his purgatory fights, but I don't know if that qualifies as "enhanced" or not. If it was just Dean in purgatory as Dean - because I'm not sure whether it was actually stated whether he was alive or dead - then that's a whole lot of badass non-enhanced, superman Dean, in my opinion. Even if he wasn't saving a bunch of people, he was still trying to save Castiel which is loyal and heroic in my book. "Blood Brother" might also count, but I don't remember for sure and I don't rewatch season 8 except for maybe "Everybody Hates Hitler" and "The Great Escapist." Maybe "99 Problems," counts too. Demon hunting and killing the Whore of Babylon.

As for last year (also non-enhanced Dean), I thought that "Baby" was a pretty badass episode for Dean. Also "The Chitters" since Dean kicked some serious monster "bug" butt in that one. "Safe House" was also good. It was a team effort kill, but Dean took the difficult part (inside the "nest"). Even though Dean didn't technically get the kill in "Love Hurts," his ingenuity did save the Person in Peril at potential cost to himself, so it was very heroic. And he did survive the fight with the monster long enough for Sam to get an assist from the PiP and finally stab the monster heart (took him long enough, geesh - and complete with being stuck in a little chair again and getting strangled - hee - at least he didn't get conked on the head).

So I found you a few non-enhanced kick-ass Dean eps, maybe?

And in terms of rusty, I understand the frustration*, because Sam's season 8 and 9 stretch was at least as bad. I think Sam killed monsters in maybe 4 or 5 episodes those entire two seasons. Usually he was being saved by Charlie, Henry, Chrissy, Dean, Gadreel, Jody, Garth's wife, etc. The Henry episode was especially embarrassing with Sam meekly allowing himself to be exchanged by his captures without even objecting that he shouldn't be exchanged for something that might be dangerous. Maybe it's just me, but I thought that was pretty bad as far as damseling goes.

* Though there was "Live Free..." and "Clap Your Hands..." in the first 10 episodes of season 6. The second one might be iffy, but Dean did kill Tinkerbell and fight his way out of the Faerie realm. Dean and Sam also tag-team killed Veritas in "You Can't Handle the Truth" and Dean was able to handily beat up soulless Sam also, so maybe not entirely rusty in the beginning of season 6.

3

Share Post


Link to post
Quote

So I found you a few non-enhanced kick-ass Dean eps, maybe?

Sorry, I meant episodes that would be quite literally comparable to the werewolves one last Season where near death Sam still fights off the wolves and even rescues Dean at the end. Or this last one where Sam basically single-handedly saves the BMOL complext for a vamp attack. Both completely human Sam.

I meant such an episode for Dean where the focus of the entire episode is how he does superhuman fights and pretty much single-handedly saves people in the process. Not just a scene he gets or something like that but pretty much a 1:1 episode like that for him. It doesn`t have to have the same story but the same scope and presentation. 

That`s why I said Live Free comes closest in him taking out a vamp nest and fighting off his bloodlust the whole time. But it`s not quite there yet.

@catrox

Quote

 I wonder if the eps that that were Dabb/Loflin that I think were pretty great were that Loflin wrote Dean better than Dabb.

This is what I have come to believe now.

And it`s interesting that you listed Road Trip because it was one where I absolutely thought "wow, could you make it more obvious that you have no story for Dean and just randomely insert him in the ep for contractual obligations". I was livid with that one.

1

Share Post


Link to post

Still waiting for Sam's version of In My Time of Dying or What is and What should Be where the focus is strictly on exploring Sam's feelings about family, future, hunting, dying, etc.  I want more episodes where Sam's feelings are at the forefront, not Dean's.
Always it is Dean making the mission statement, making the big speech, giving the 'approval' to a scheme. If he doesn't, I know Sam will end up on the wrong side or failing again. Always Dean is the one who is more affected by this and that.

By all means, both Winchesters should be badass in every single episode. I am way tired of Sam being tied to a chair and needing to be rescued by Dean. That's how he earned his Samsel nickname.

Edited by shang yiet.
5

Share Post


Link to post
6 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Sorry, I meant episodes that would be quite literally comparable to the werewolves one last Season where near death Sam still fights off the wolves and even rescues Dean at the end. Or this last one where Sam basically single-handedly saves the BMOL complext for a vamp attack. Both completely human Sam.

I meant such an episode for Dean where the focus of the entire episode is how he does superhuman fights and pretty much single-handedly saves people in the process. Not just a scene he gets or something like that but pretty much a 1:1 episode like that for him. It doesn`t have to have the same story but the same scope and presentation. 

That`s why I said Live Free comes closest in him taking out a vamp nest and fighting off his bloodlust the whole time. But it`s not quite there yet.

I haven't had a rewatch yet, but I'm pretty sure that Sam didn't single-handedly save the BMoL complex as far as I remember. I'm pretty sure that Sam wouldn't have survived the episode unless Mary hadn't saved his bacon near the beginning of the attack. That vampire Mary saved Sam from would have killed or severely wounded him. Mary also then helped Sam throughout the fight. To me that's not exactly comparable to Dean - without help and while basically starving - resisting his blood urges and taking out a huge vampire nest singlehandedly, including the head vampire and saving all of the victims. I agree that "Red Meat" is most comparable to that, and I think the sheer number of vampires Dean took out, the people he saved, and his emotional fortitude compensate for him being not quite human, for me anyway.

As for something comparable to "Red Meat," I think "Regarding Dean" was comparable, where a memory challenged, potentially dying Dean still managed to kill the powerful witches and save Sam and Rowena. And where Sam was again tied to a chair, and in this case not only about to be killed, but soul potentially sent to hell in exchange for the witch's soul. And I'm pretty sure Dean killed all of the big bads there, including the witch in the beginning. There wasn't a lot of superhuman fighting in that one in the end, but there was the fight in the beginning. There was one other person I'm not sure was a witch? Or that Sam knocked out? (It didn't look like Sam killed him.) I'm not exactly sure about that one, but whoever that was, he wasn't a big player, and was just a person/witch? on the periphery. Dean got all of the big players there. And I loved that episode, despite incompetent, Samsel in distress Sam. (I gave Sam a really worried about Dean exception for his incompetence).

And I still contend that "Baby" also counts. Dean managed to win that one by himself - using both smarts and fighting skill to kill the main monster and save the woman and all of the others who the head monster had turned - despite being pretty beat up in a very brutal fight with the monsters. Dean even saved Sam, because Sam was walking into a trap, and if Dean hadn't killed the head ghoulpire, changing all of the others back, Sam would've been turned into one - it was the head ghoulpire's plan to make Sam one of his "soldiers." And I'm pretty sure that Sam was all beat up at the end - meaning that the monsters pretty much had him - and since no one was dead (and all turned back), that meant Sam had either lost or was losing (if he hadn't been turned into a monster already).

And the presentation on both were pretty Dean focused, especially "Baby."


So "Baby" and "Regarding Dean."

3

Share Post


Link to post

I loved Regarding Dean but the memory loss wasn`t quite the bleeding from the gut and still physically fighting off supernatural creatures. The second is just much more visceral and more flashy in presentation of superness. At this point I really don`t want subtle, I want something in-your-face-awesome. 

Or take for example the Season Opener, Sam was the one captured and tortured but they still made him come off like a major badass. Dean was the one roaming free and got put down easily by Mom in nightgown. So, it`s really not even about the circumstances but the visual oomph.

Sure, he got the spell in the second episode to take down Lady Deadeyes and it was a nice little moment but I`m looking for a huge banana split here with all extras, not a little cone.

To run with that analogy, back in Season 1 and 2, I feel like I got enough ice cream overall that I was mostly satisfied. These days, I`m flat-out starved and I see the table next to me getting a banana split. And then another one. And icre-cream scoops on the side. Meanwhile, I only occassionally get a spoon full. This is what makes the show so unsatisfying and my cravings just grow and grow.

No idea if anyone but me understood this jumbled ice cream metaphor.  :)  

2

Share Post


Link to post
3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I loved Regarding Dean but the memory loss wasn`t quite the bleeding from the gut and still physically fighting off supernatural creatures. The second is just much more visceral and more flashy in presentation of superness. At this point I really don`t want subtle, I want something in-your-face-awesome. 

Or take for example the Season Opener, Sam was the one captured and tortured but they still made him come off like a major badass. Dean was the one roaming free and got put down easily by Mom in nightgown. So, it`s really not even about the circumstances but the visual oomph.

Sure, he got the spell in the second episode to take down Lady Deadeyes and it was a nice little moment but I`m looking for a huge banana split here with all extras, not a little cone.

To run with that analogy, back in Season 1 and 2, I feel like I got enough ice cream overall that I was mostly satisfied. These days, I`m flat-out starved and I see the table next to me getting a banana split. And then another one. And icre-cream scoops on the side. Meanwhile, I only occassionally get a spoon full. This is what makes the show so unsatisfying and my cravings just grow and grow.

No idea if anyone but me understood this jumbled ice cream metaphor.  :)  

I get what you're saying. In the first 3 seasons there was an equal amount of story for both brothers but beyond that it's been more of one or the other. Interestingly enough I don't hear much displeasure from fans regarding the earlier seasons just seasons 4 to present....and you made me want ice cream damn you! :(

Edited by DeeDee79.
0

Share Post


Link to post
8 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

his is what I have come to believe now.

And it`s interesting that you listed Road Trip because it was one where I absolutely thought "wow, could you make it more obvious that you have no story for Dean and just randomely insert him in the ep for contractual obligations". I was livid with that one.

Interesting. I never really thought Dean was particularly absent from that episode.

There were story reasons he had to be there. He had to order Cas to remove Sam's anti-possession tattoo. Cas wouldn't have done it otherwise.

I thought Jensen did some great work with Dean's growing awareness of just how much he fucked up now that he's having to resort to Crowley digging into Sam's brain and then having to let Crowley into to help Sam get rid of Gadreel. I thought it worked for Dean stuff myself. It setup his overwhelming guilt and shame that sent him off on his own to with the  misguided mission to kill Abaddon via the First Blade.

1

Share Post


Link to post
Quote

In the first 3 seasons there was an equal amount of story for both brothers but beyond that it's been more of one or the other. Interestingly enough I don't hear much displeasure from fans regarding the earlier seasons just seasons 4 to present

Oh, I didn`t actually mean story-wise. Because I was greatly chagrined that Dean didn`t really get a big mytharc role in those earlier Seasons. In fact, if Season 3 had played out like planned: Powers!Sam saving Dean from hell, I would have stopped watching. When Ruby in early Season 3 told Sam "it`s all about you", I wanted to throw the TV out the window. 

Only Dean actually going to hell and supposedly getting a storyline from his rescue and the angel stuff renewed my interest. That`s why I loved Season 4.

What the first two Seasons did well for me was giving Dean time to really shine in the MOTW in exchange for fading into the background in the myth episodes which was Sam`s story.

Quote

and you made me want ice cream damn you! :(

Sorry.     

1

Share Post


Link to post
6 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I get what you're saying. In the first 3 seasons there was an equal amount of story for both brothers but beyond that it's been more of one or the other. Interestingly enough I don't hear much displeasure from fans regarding the earlier seasons just seasons 4 to present....and you made me want ice cream damn you! :(

I dunno I think if we were going down the point scoring route  some Sam's fans could make the argument that Sam deserved to kill Azazel more than Dean. After all, he has the same grievance as Dean (Mary, a messed up childhood). But on top of that he also has his own deep complaints like the fact Azazel orchestrated the death of an additional loved one (Jess), and it was Sam's blood he polluted as a child. 

1

Share Post


Link to post
3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Only Dean actually going to hell and supposedly getting a storyline from his rescue and the angel stuff renewed my interest. That`s why I loved Season 4.

Season 4 is the one that's hardest to rewatch in its entirety for me. It started great with Dean getting back from Hell and Castiel's intro but there was so much discord between the brothers that it was aggravating to watch.

3 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I dunno I think if we were going down the point scoring route  some Sam's fans could make the argument that Sam deserved to kill Azazel more than Dean. After all, he has the same grievance as Dean (Mary, a messed up childhood). But on top of that he also has his own deep complaints like the fact Azazel orchestrated the death of an additional loved one (Jess), and it was Sam's blood he polluted as a child. 

I don't like keeping score. I'm looking at it from a point of view that both brothers had interesting storylines and there wasn't much conflict to damage their bond. In regards to Azazel it didn't matter who killed him because his actions screwed the entire family; all that mattered was that someone did.

3

Share Post


Link to post
Quote

 It started great with Dean getting back from Hell and Castiel's intro but there was so much discord between the brothers that it was aggravating to watch.

I didn`t actually mind that because I thought if things were going soooo bad, it would have an incredible pay-off in Season 5. Like darkest before dawn and all. Unfortunately, I consider it anti-pay-off. So to me Season 5 is really the one that screwed it up.

1

Share Post


Link to post
21 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I wonder if the eps that that were Dabb/Loflin that I think were pretty great were that Loflin wrote Dean better than Dabb. I dunno.

I don't know either, but after Loflin's solo episodes, I'm pretty sure that I dislike his writing for Sam when he's not writing with Dabb. Because for me "Citizen Fang" was awful when it came to Sam's characterization and is probably one of my most hated episodes of the entire series. And his other episode "Remember the Titans" pretty much took huge liberties with a few of the Greek (or was it Roman?) Gods.

For me Loflin's "better" writing for Dean* wasn't worth the character assassination of Sam.  And both of those solo episodes seemed to have a very soap opera plot feel to them with betrayals and angsty relationships and such.


* Though I'm not so sure Dean came out looking entirely great in "Citizen Fang" either. Certainly much better than Sam though - I so hate what Loflin did to Sam in that episode.

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I loved Regarding Dean but the memory loss wasn`t quite the bleeding from the gut and still physically fighting off supernatural creatures. The second is just much more visceral and more flashy in presentation of superness. At this point I really don`t want subtle, I want something in-your-face-awesome. 

Then I think "Baby" applies. It has all of those things you mentioned: bloody, beat up Dean fighting and beating the monsters single-handedly, saving all of the victims and saving Sam, too. And those fight scenes were definitely not subtle: they were exactly brutal, in your face awesome with blood and gore galore. And they were, in my opinion at least,  likely some of the most brutal, in your face, awesome fight scenes we've seen in the show's later seasons or maybe the series as a whole.

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Sure, he got the spell in the second episode to take down Lady Deadeyes and it was a nice little moment but I`m looking for a huge banana split here with all extras, not a little cone.

To run with that analogy, back in Season 1 and 2, I feel like I got enough ice cream overall that I was mostly satisfied. These days, I`m flat-out starved and I see the table next to me getting a banana split. And then another one. And icre-cream scoops on the side. Meanwhile, I only occassionally get a spoon full. This is what makes the show so unsatisfying and my cravings just grow and grow.

I don't quite see the discrepancy that you do as to the amount of ice cream, but to use your metaphor to describe my problem as someone who really likes Sam... I feel like I'm sitting at that table, looking at my banana split coming my way, thinking "oh, that looks good," but before the banana split reaches the table, the waitress says "oops wait a minute, we forgot something," and pours Tabasco sauce all over the entire banana split. Sure, I got a banana split, but I don't really want it anymore, because for me, it's now almost inedible. In that case, I'd rather have the few spoonfuls of ice cream that I can at least enjoy.

The Tabasco sauce in this metaphor = things like the speech from "The Purge," The Darkness being raised, and now Sam appearing to be all in with joining the BMoL. I don't include season 8 in there, because that was a turd sandwich from the very start for me, and putting a scoop of ice cream on that later didn't really change the fact that it was still a turd sandwich.

I guess the equivalent for some Dean fans might be season 8 where it appeared Dean fans started out with a big banana split to Sam fans' tiny spoonfuls (which were really, really small the start of that season), but then "Trial and Error" dumped Tabasco sauce all over your banana split before giving it to you.


So I guess for me, sometimes the banana split isn't so great either.

Edited by AwesomO4000.
1

Share Post


Link to post
3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I didn`t actually mind that because I thought if things were going soooo bad, it would have an incredible pay-off in Season 5. Like darkest before dawn and all. Unfortunately, I consider it anti-pay-off. So to me Season 5 is really the one that screwed it up.

And there was no payoff at the end of the season which makes it hard to rewatch for me. I didn't like the Dean is weak, Sam is stronger moments, I hated Alastair with a passion, I wasn't a fan of Ruby 2.0, the boo hoo speech from Bobby, the knock down drag out fight between the brothers, etc. I could go on but I'm sure you get the gist.

1

Share Post


Link to post
Quote

I didn't like the Dean is weak, Sam is stronger moments, I hated Alastair with a passion, I wasn't a fan of Ruby 2.0, the boo hoo speech from Bobby

Of course I detest any "Dean is weak" thing - which seems to be a really big kink for Dabb and Berens  - but that`s where I really thought the great pay-off would make it worth it. Not so much.

Alistair was an interesting character to me. I would have prefered Dean somehow getting to kill him to get closure.

Ruby 2.0, yes, I agree with you there. Not a fan of the writing or the acting on this one.

The boohoo speech, I fully agree. I hated that. Like I said, Bobby was dead to me after that.

And I HATED both Yellow Fever - not my humour at all - and Afterschool Special.  

In general, I think the first half of Season 4 was so much stronger than the second half but I felt it had the best pacing the show ever had in terms of an ongoing story. The seals plot really lend itself to both mytharc and standalones eps. Which kept it all connected.    

Quote

I guess the equivalent for Dean fans might be season 8 where it appeared Dean fans started out with a big banana split to Sam fans' tiny spoonfuls (which were really, really small the start of that season), but then "Trial and Error" dumped Tabasco sauce all over your banana split before giving it to you.

Well, the worst was the Season 5 Finale. Only instead of Tabasco Sauce imagine the waiter peeing on banana split in front of you and then force-feeding it to you. But Trial and Error and the second half of Season 8, yup, that definitely qualifies. 

0

Share Post


Link to post
3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I felt it had the best pacing the show ever had in terms of an ongoing story. The seals plot really lend itself to both mytharc and standalones eps. Which kept it all connected.    

I can agree with this; there was a really good flow with the overall story line for the season. There were just so much awful stories mixed in that it was ruined for me. And Yellow Fever had it's moments but the whole Dean is a dick hence the ghost sickness just killed the intended humor for me.

0

Share Post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I dunno I think if we were going down the point scoring route  some Sam's fans could make the argument that Sam deserved to kill Azazel more than Dean. After all, he has the same grievance as Dean (Mary, a messed up childhood). But on top of that he also has his own deep complaints like the fact Azazel orchestrated the death of an additional loved one (Jess), and it was Sam's blood he polluted as a child. 

I go back and forth on this one. 

I totally see why Sam would have wanted to kill Azazel for all the reasons you list.  On the other hand, Mary's death was the reason for the vengeance. Yet, Mary's death wasn't really a motivating factor for Sam. He dropped out of hunting to go to school and wanted nothing to do with John's vengeance plan for like 3 years(ish).  He only joined up because the YED killed Jessica. If not for that, he would have stayed at school whereas Dean and John would have continued to hunt and track the YED.  Dean made hunting a priority over vengeance but he didn't walk away from it either.

I guess for me it's close to a draw but ultimately I think it was okay to go to Dean.

Edited by catrox14.
1

Share Post


Link to post
2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I guess for me it's close to a draw but ultimately I think it was okay to go to Dean.

I agree, and for all of the reasons you mention above. It's also why I consider the Azazel storyline as both a Sam and Dean storyline. Yes, Sam had the powers and was connected to Azazel that way, but for Dean, it was personal. As you inferred, Dean's life had been affected by the YED in some way or another from the time he was almost 5 years* old, and it pretty much informed his entire life up until then. So I was okay with Dean closing out that chapter, especially since Sam closed out the Lucifer one. I'd go so far as to say I thought it was right that Dean brought down the YED.

However, if the show had been canceled and ended instead at say the end of season 4, that would've changed my entire perspective, and I would've been very disappointed with Dean being the only one of the brothers to bring down the YED. Because that didn't happen, and Sam got his chance in season 5, I prefer that Dean was the one who brought down the YED.

* Thinking about it, the usual 4 years old doesn't fit as well. Dean is almost 4 1/2 years older than Sam, and since Sam was 6 months when the YED visited, Dean was actually closer to 5 - which actually in my mind makes his memories of his mom make more sense.

3

Share Post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now