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S08.E11: You Made a Choice to Be Good 2017.02.03

1 minute ago, doram said:

If Elena is any kind of friend to Bonnie, if they are truly the sisters that the show has always portrayed them to be, this is a non-issue. Elena won't see what Bonnie did as stealing and in the end, that's the only opinion that matters. 

Well how can we know? Elena has no agency right now and that is the point.

What we do know is that Elena took the cure on the premise that Damon would take it with her. Had Damon took that cure as they had planned would Bonnie still have had take back rights? 

With the cure on the table with Elena still a vamp, I have no doubts that Elena would give that cure right back to bonnie/enzo but now? I'm not so sure. Bonnie gave Damon (not Elena mind) the cure, Damon gave the cure to Elena. Elena ONLY took the cure because Damon promised to take it with her. 

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5 minutes ago, miss-vanilla said:

Elena ONLY took the cure because Damon promised to take it with her. 

According to Bonnie's plan, Damon is still taking the Cure with Elena. No one is being cheated. Elena is not losing anything from this. 

6 minutes ago, miss-vanilla said:

Well how can we know? Elena has no agency right now and that is the point.

Well we can know because the show spent 6 seasons building up these girls's relationships to the point where it's believable that Bonnie would literally repeatedly die several times for Elena, and Elena would be speaking honestly when she claims that she'd do the same for Bonnie in turn.

That's Elena's agency in all this - 6 years of establishing her character as aside from being a generous, forgiving human being who has been willing to sacrifice her life for others, also as Bonnie Bennett's sister and not a selfish monster who would begrudge her "sister" her happiness after watching same sister sacrifice her self over and over for Elena. 

(Assuming again, that simply by being "gifted" this magical miracle, Elena's claim over the Cure surpasses the person who it's twice owed - both by inheritance, and by retrieving it. The morality/ethics of who the Cure belongs to - if the Cure should belong to any one person is complicated.)

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2 hours ago, miss-vanilla said:

Umm yes it was entirely Stefan's fault. 

Stefan isn't under mind control he is choosing to carry out a deal he made with the devil and this was just a short cut. Everything Stefan is doing right now is as a result of the choices he made. Being Cades servant is a choice, Damon made the same choice.

So? Matt had a choice to try and forgive Damon instead of ringing the bell. He didn't even try. So it was still Matt that rang that bell, even if he was under compulsion. The argument cuts both ways.

Take a look at the title of this episode. Stefan, with all his faculties in place, made a choice to be good. His deal with Cade was part of that choice, and after that he had to sacrifice a part of himself to make good on that deal and save the twins. Once he turns off his humanity, Stefan's first loyalty is to his intense hunger, and so long as he's murdering and doesn't feel guilty about it, he takes the opportunity to be an asshole and have fun with it. He doesn't -- possibly cannot -- resist his impulses in that state. And that not caring is fundamentally opposite to Stefan's true state. Of all the characters he's the closest to having an entirely split personality without his humanity on. So I see them as two different characters -- Stefan humanity off is not Stefan humanity on, and I don't see the point in blaming the latter for what he did as the former. The latter has always tried to be a good person. Even when he was ripping.

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I don't remember this at all, when was this?

 

During his twenties Ripper binge, when he first met Klaus. He left a journal behind from that time that basically described a split-personally breakdown, where he'd keep losing time and waking up near dead bodies and strange women and basically a lot of carnage that he wouldn't have done if he;d been in his right mind. The only reason that binge ended was Lexi came to town in the nick of time before Stefan, in one of his "lucid" (I guess) periods tried to end the entire cycle by walking in front of a train.

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Maybe, but we have also been shown that Damon secretly wanted to live as human too.

Only, and very specifically only if he could do it with Elena. Stefan spent an entire episode giving him a reality check about what a human life would really mean, and Damon very nearly decided not to take the cure. He only chose it after seeing a happily married old couple and gaining faith that he and Elena would be able to last it out. Damon's state of being is entirely dependent on Elena at this point. If she hadn't wanted to so badly to be human again I don't think Damon would have considered the possibility for himself for a moment.

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1 hour ago, PinkRibbons said:

 

Only, and very specifically only if he could do it with Elena. Stefan spent an entire episode giving him a reality check about what a human life would really mean, and Damon very nearly decided not to take the cure. He only chose it after seeing a happily married old couple and gaining faith that he and Elena would be able to last it out. Damon's state of being is entirely dependent on Elena at this point. If she hadn't wanted to so badly to be human again I don't think Damon would have considered the possibility for himself for a moment.

Yes. Out of all the vampires on the show Damon is the only one with more than 5 minutes of screentime who really seems to actually enjoy being a vampire, in fact Damon revels in it. Even the few moments Damon does lament his existence are largely tied to losing or disappointing people he cares about rather than anything about being a vampire specifically. Elena is the sole reason Damon even considers becoming human, because she wanted it so badly for whatever nonsensical reasons were running around in her little head and he didn't want to go through eternity without her. Shame they didn't know Hell actually existed back then and they were most assuredly going to go there or they probably would have REALLY rethought that decision. Hell, even Elena loved being a vampire until suddenly she didn't anymore, and Caroline took to it like a fish to water while aside from having to deal with the pain of losing her mother and switching off for a bit she didn't have any actual problems with it, but whining about the general state of one's existence even when there's no real reason to is a thing on this show.

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Take a look at the title of this episode. Stefan, with all his faculties in place, made a choice to be good. His deal with Cade was part of that choice, and after that he had to sacrifice a part of himself to make good on that deal and save the twins. Once he turns off his humanity, Stefan's first loyalty is to his intense hunger, and so long as he's murdering and doesn't feel guilty about it, he takes the opportunity to be an asshole and have fun with it. He doesn't -- possibly cannot -- resist his impulses in that state. And that not caring is fundamentally opposite to Stefan's true state. Of all the characters he's the closest to having an entirely split personality without his humanity on. So I see them as two different characters -- Stefan humanity off is not Stefan humanity on, and I don't see the point in blaming the latter for what he did as the former. The latter has always tried to be a good person. Even when he was ripping.

Everybody seems to completely forget that the sole reason Stefan is even doing what he's doing was to save a couple of innocent little girls from eternal servitude to the Devil. He HAS to do what he's doing whether he wants to or not so he turned off his humanity to avoid feeling the guilt involved and so he could go whole hog with it as were the terms of the deal. Humanity off Stefan has always been a completely unhinged psycho that makes Damon on his worst day look like an angel and this is precisely the Stefan Cade wanted to bring about.

Edited by immortalfrieza.
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11 hours ago, Cattitude said:

With all the doppelganger talk I forgot Stefan is a doppelganger too. So can Klaus now use his blood to make new hybrids?(sorry I put that out in the universe again)

I don't remember the exact details, but I remember that Tatia's blood was used to make Klaus (and his siblings) vampires. I thought that that meant that he needed blood from the Tatia/Katherine/Elena line of doppelgangers to make hybrids. So Stefan's blood would not work for this purpose.

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7 hours ago, doram said:

According to Bonnie's plan, Damon is still taking the Cure with Elena. No one is being cheated. Elena is not losing anything from this. 

I don't remember this coming up in any of the conversations that Bonnie had with Enzo. Damon did not seem to factor in their plans at all since they weren't even going to tell him. It was Caroline who figured out that Damon could eventually take the cure from Enzo  after it has been passed about a bit. Bonnie even admitted that she was making a selfish decision.

 

7 hours ago, doram said:

Well we can know because the show spent 6 seasons building up these girls's relationships to the point where it's believable that Bonnie would literally repeatedly die several times for Elena, and Elena would be speaking honestly when she claims that she'd do the same for Bonnie in turn.

I have no problem with accepting that Elena would gladly give up the cure in her blood to save her friends lives, none.

I have a problem with Bonnie and Enzo planning on taking the cure from Elena to be even more happy than they already are. Of course that point is moot now since he is dead but just imagine had he already taken the cure? It would have been useless to anyone else and that was the risk they were taking- it was selfish and acknowledged as such.

Now Stefan has it. It's quite the dilemma!

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2 hours ago, miss-vanilla said:

It was Caroline who figured out that Damon could eventually take the cure from Enzo  after it has been passed about a bit. Bonnie even admitted that she was making a selfish decision.

 

Bonnie and Caroline had discussed the plan so it's fair to assume that they were both in agreement with the steps/details i.e. Damon taking the Cure after Bonenzo were dead. The only change Caroline made to the plan when she discussed it with Damon was to include Cade in it.

 

Yes, Bonnie admitted that she being selfish. But Bonnie's idea of not being selfish is being happy to be a ghost while her friends start freshman year in college, is running in the wrong direction (Back) to the face the psychopath who wants her dead when there's a chance that Damon will kill her. 

Bonnie is the kind of person who thinks that not trapping herself in a prison world with a child-killer for a bunch of strangers she's never met - is selfish.

I think we can all agree that Bonnie Bennett is not the best judge of what it means to be selfish. 

 

2 hours ago, miss-vanilla said:

I have a problem with Bonnie and Enzo planning on taking the cure from Elena to be even more happy than they already are. Of course that point is moot now since he is dead but just imagine had he already taken the cure? It would have been useless to anyone else and that was the risk they were taking- it was selfish and acknowledged as such.

What does that mean? Why do Damon x Elena need to take the Cure to be even more happy? They were already pretty happy as they were. Damon, who's never been keen on humanity, should just be satisfied with living out Elena's years and staying immortal. Why are their happiness more important than Bonnie's and Enzo's. 

Yes, Enzo might have died with the Cure in him. So could Elena if Kai had straight-up murdered her in the season 6 finale, and not just put her in a Sleeping Curse. So could Elena if Damon had legit set her coffin on fire in season 6. The plan was for Damon to take the Cure and die with it, taking the Cure out of the world forever. 

There'll always be a risk when you are ingesting the Cure to immortality and becoming its sole carrier. 

But Delena's plan only accommodated them. They were the only ones who got to take the Cure. 2 people. 

Bonnie's plan - as stated clearly - gave everyone a turn.

So who is really being the "selfish" in this scenario?

And if, for argument's sake, she was being "selfish", she was certainly not being more "selfish" than Damon or Elena - and she had more than earned the right to, but because of the constant sacrifices she'd made for those two, and the fact that the Cure is even on the table because of her.

No matter how I look at it, it seems like we've been so conditioned to see Bonnie as the self-sacrificing character than any attempt to think of herself is regarded as selfishness. 

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Of all the characters he's the closest to having an entirely split personality without his humanity on. So I see them as two different characters -- Stefan humanity off is not Stefan humanity on,

I don`t. And it always drove me nuts when Stefan referred to "the Ripper" as basically another entity. To me there is just Stefan. Who fundamentally strives to be a good person and I would argue IS a good person. But he also has a dark side and that is repressed so much that when it is allowed to come out during no-humanity periods, it goes way overboard.

I still think that the current version of no-humanity-Stefan is different to the one in Season 3 or the brief stint with Caroline. It`s like he shoved his humanity down deeper than ever before.   

As for the cure, I think Bonnie just thought of Enzo taking it and them living happily together, I don`t believe she really thought beyond that and giving everyone a turn. I do understand the impulse, she has certainly sacrificed enough and Enzo had a shitty enough vamp life so far, I can get them being "us first" for a change.

But I also think her agreeing to the plan was the right call, Damon didn`t ask her to give it back to him but to help fight the devil. It`s in all their interest if they want to still alive. And lets be real, in this world, human or vampire, you seem to go to hell for basically every little thing so Enzo is 100 % hellbound. Making him human just sends him there faster because his expiration date gets more clear. And Bonnie is a high probability. Caroline, Damon and Stefan are other 100 percenters.   

Another reason to be a vampire right now on the show. If you take care of yourself, hell can be a long time away, not just 70 or so years.

I gotta admit when they showed Dorian with the blood-spiked drink and then he watched Damon and that shocked him so much, he came right back to Matt`s line of thinking, I just sniggered. My thought process would have been like: "hm, do I want to be the helpless bloodbag or the one with some power in that scenario? oh my, look at that, glass is empty already." I would have guzzled that down so hard. 

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3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

As for the cure, I think Bonnie just thought of Enzo taking it and them living happily together, I don`t believe she really thought beyond that and giving everyone a turn. I do understand the impulse, she has certainly sacrificed enough and Enzo had a shitty enough vamp life so far, I can get them being "us first" for a change.

Bonnie and Caroline must have discussed the plan since Caroline knew that Enzo was going to take it. So she did think about everyone getting a turn. 

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23 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Stefan just seems to be off the rails in ways I`ve never seen him before, even switched off. And now he will just drown in mountains of guilt. Presumably. I remember him once saying in Season 4 that he wanted to be a human again to be free of all that guilt. Which never made a lick of sense because he still killed all these people regardless.

Yes, I remember that made no sense to me at the time either. Vampires can turn off their humanity and stop feeling guilty. Humans can't turn off their humanity, so wouldn't a vampire who becomes human again carry all that guilt about the terrible things they did as a vampire?

21 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

He definitely wanted it but I`m not sure any old vampire would actually handle the transition back to human well. Rebekah wanted it very much also but I think both of them had these romanticized notion of humanity. You lived over a century with super-awesome powers, being downgraded would probably suck hardcore. I`m just waiting for the first time of "you can`t come, you are a liability in a fight, hide behind the sofa" or the first time not healing quickly, being slow, not being able to get out of sticky situations by compulsion, all that. Personally, I would run screaming from that cure if I was a vampire. 

Elena wasn't a vampire very long (two years? I know the timeline on this show gets weird, but she became a vampire at the beginning of S4 which was the spring semester of her senior year in high school and she took the cure near the end of S6 which was her second year in college) and even she had some issues once she became human again. Remember when Alaric was giving her Buffy type training sessions so she could fight because she didn't have vamp speed or strength anymore and she wanted to be able to defend herself? I think that's another reason Elena and Damon were going to disappear after he took the cure - not only would other vampires possibly want to take the cure from him, but as two humans living without the protection of their supernatural friends nearby, they would be pretty helpless to defend themselves well. You can have all the vervain, stakes, and crossbows you like but that will just slow down a determined vamp.

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Bonnie and Caroline must have discussed the plan since Caroline knew that Enzo was going to take it. 

Sybil told Caroline about it. I`m not even sure Caroline and Bonnie ever really discussed it. Caroline then told it to Damon in this episode.

Even Bonnie having secretely moved Elena was something only Bonnie knew. Well, and Cade after he read her mind. I found that kind of annoying. It reminded me of early Silas who seemed so uber-powerful, you had no idea how anyone would take him down. Cade is worse.  

Like I said, I have no problem with what Bonnie planned but I see no indication she thought of anyone but Enzo getting the cure.

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1 hour ago, doram said:

Bonnie and Caroline had discussed the plan so it's fair to assume that they were both in agreement with the steps/details i.e. Damon taking the Cure after Bonenzo were dead. The only change Caroline made to the plan when she discussed it with Damon was to include Cade in it.

 

I don't care if Caroline agreed or not, it really has nothing to do with her, this conversation should have been had with Damon because he and Elena are the ones affected by this.  I wonder how Caroline would feel about the cure being used to kill Cade now that Stefan is the one carrying the cure?

Basically this whole storyline has been about putting a mirror up in front of each and everyone of them and showing them exactly who they are and given the right circumstances they are all intensely selfish. They are all hell bound according to Cade's entry requirements. The conflicts between the gang right now are rooted in the fact that they are all striving for their own happiness consequences and friendships be damned. Every single one of them.

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37 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Sybil told Caroline about it. I`m not even sure Caroline and Bonnie ever really discussed it. Caroline then told it to Damon in this episode.

Well, we're still assuming that the girls have never discussed it, even though Bonnie was already coming over to the Salvatore House to have that conversation with Caroline, even though they had the ample time after Stefan, even though Sybil had already spiked Caroline's curiosity.

To assume that the girls didn't sit down to have this conversation seems like a tremendous leap just to make Bonnie out to be selfish and/or deceitful in this.

 

37 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Even Bonnie having secretely moved Elena was something only Bonnie knew.

She did it while Enzo and Damon were in hiding to keep Elena safe, since she didn't know to what extent they had turned. I was surprised that she hadn't told Steroline, too but I think that's more due to bad writing than any other reason. Because it could have been just as easy for Stefan to know where Elena's body already because he had this information, without the Devil mind-reading spiel.

Unless, Bonnie was worried that whatever captured Denzo could target vampires in general, so she kept that information away from Steroline. Which makes perfect sense and is a fair head-canon to have. 

 

 

35 minutes ago, miss-vanilla said:

I don't care if Caroline agreed or not, it really has nothing to do with her, this conversation should have been had with Damon because he and Elena are the ones affected by this.  I wonder how Caroline would feel about the cure being used to kill Cade now that Stefan is the one carrying the cure?

It's not the same situation at all. Stefan will die if they take the cure now to give Cade. Damon risks nothing by the cure being given to Enzo, while he waits out Bonnie's lifespan.

 

Bonnie doesn't need to "discuss" anything with Damon. He doesn't have any claim to the cure and she doesn't need his permission to take it. I still find it hard to buy this argument that she's being selfish because she isn't - once again - sacrificing her own chance of happiness to make Damon's more secure. If this was an either/or situation - if only Enzo or Damon could have the cure - then I can squint and see how, somehow, Bonnie claiming the Cure that she made possible in the first place, was an act of selfishness.

(And considering Damon straight-up burned Elena's body and didn't think it worth while to tell her family and friends, he's the last person to make any claim to anything here...)

But in this situation, Enzo gets the Cure and she gets her HEA - and Damon gets the Cure in 60 years and Delena gets her HEA. The argument here seems to be that Bonnie is being selfish for daring - to quote you - to be "even more happy than they already are" for wanting the same kind of life that Damon/Elena have.

Apparently the show has convinced most of its audience to believe that when Bonnie isn't directly making herself miserable for everyone's sake, she's being selfish. 

Edited by doram.
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3 minutes ago, doram said:

Bonnie doesn't need to "discuss" anything with Damon. He doesn't have any claim to the cure and she doesn't need his permission to take it. I still find it hard to buy this argument that she's being selfish because she isn't - once again - sacrificing her own chance of happiness to make Damon's more secure. If this was an either/or situation - if only Enzo or Damon could have the cure - then I can squint and see how, somehow, Bonnie claiming the Cure that she made possible in the first place, was an act of selfishness.

I completely disagree with this so i'm moving on.

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1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Yes, I remember that made no sense to me at the time either. Vampires can turn off their humanity and stop feeling guilty. Humans can't turn off their humanity, so wouldn't a vampire who becomes human again carry all that guilt about the terrible things they did as a vampire?

I think the idea behind that one (though obviously they weren't clear about it because they never are) is that the vampire heightened emotions make the guilt a lot worse than it would be in a human. Plus it might be easier to live with something you've done once you can't possibly do it again. And lbr, once you're human it's probably fairly easy to put yourself into the mindset of "that was a different person entirely, because they were motivated by vampire issues". (That last bit would be helped by the fact that no uber-emotions would be breaking through the way Normal!Stefan can't seem to keep out the guilt of what he did as essentially a different person.)

Edited by PinkRibbons.
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To assume that the girls didn't sit down to have this conversation seems like a tremendous leap just to make Bonnie out to be selfish and/or deceitful in this.

I have no problem with Bonnie not being a perfect saint, she has given enough. So my intention is not to insult her here. But I think the opposite about the girls having a talk about it. With the way this show runs, my money is on not.  

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I just don't see how it adds up. It would mean Bonnie forgoing the conversation she planned to have. It would mean Caroline also dismissing their discussion after Sybil pretty much accused her of being an insensitive friend - yet somehow knowing enough details about Bonnie's plan to modify it for Cade, etc. 

 

I'm all for Bonnie being selfish. It high time she gets her chance to go 'dark side'. I just don't see anything in this particular story that can be construed at that. It just seems to me that just the sheer fact that she's daring to reach for her own happiness is an act of selfishness alone.

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I didn't think Bonnie was going to give Enzo the cure without talking to Caroline, Damon, et al. about it.  I thought Bonnie was making sure first that Enzo definitely wanted to take it before bothering to go further.  That was the point of Enzo doing all the things he had ever wanted to do that day.  Bonnie wanted to make sure Enzo really wanted to be human again.  Then once again everything went FUBAR, and it became a moot point.

If they wanted me to believe vampires everywhere would be lining up to take the cure, they shouldn't have made being a vampire so easy and enjoyable in this universe.

I kept wanting Caroline to say to hell with everything, and go find Rick and her children.  When Caroline and Damon were discussing Cade, and moving onto Plan C, I was thinking, "Caroline look where you are.  When it's down to you and Damon Salvatore trying to fix things, it is time to get the hell out of Dodge."  I had the same thought about Bonnie and Enzo.  "Get as far away from Damon and Stefan as you can because if you don't, you will end up dead again."  Then Stefan ripped Enzo's heart out.

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Can I just say, I freaking loved this episode. It was pretty much TVD as I remember it--or want to remember it--with incredibly pretty people being forced to make bad or horrible decisions, trying to think their way through impossible odds against an old dead guy with an evil plot, and then getting kicked in the gut repeatedly.

Both Enzo's death and Bonnie's reawakening were pretty heavily foreshadowed, so no huge surprises there, but I was surprised that Bonnie cured Stefan. I was thinking she would fesmatos him while he was manhandling her, but it makes sense to have the situation be more dire and hopeless, so of course she couldn't get her powers back until after it would have helped immensely to have them.

I appreciate that they acknowledged Bonnie's existence being suffering on this show. And fwiw, I see Bonnie's plan for her and Enzo to enjoy being human together and then for Damon and Elena to have the same thing afterward as pretty fair. It's not like under normal circumstances Damon would be taking the cure before Elena woke up anyway, so...?

Interesting that Damon and Caroline are both vampires and Stefan and Elena are now humans. I'd never suggest that Damon and Caroline get back together, but I'm worried that Stefan and Elena might eventually. I can't see Bonnie surviving the series (because of course not), so Elena is going to be around in one form or another and soon. I think I just tend to pick the wrong characters to back, because the ones I like (Bonnie, Caroline, and grudgingly Enzo) always end up worse off.

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If they wanted me to believe vampires everywhere would be lining up to take the cure, they shouldn't have made being a vampire so easy and enjoyable in this universe.

No kidding. Though I continue to be baffled how Lexi and Rose, two old vampires, appeared to be the only shmucks who never scored themselves a daylight ring. Enzo was captured basically five minutes after being turned and in captivity for 75? years and even he seemed to have a daylight ring immediately upon his escape.  Even Klaus was seen to make nice with witches here and there and he already had one. It seems super-easy for vampires. Especially since they are apparently all great in the sack with all that experience.   

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So now that Stefan was injected with Elena's blood, he has the cure, and now only his blood can be used as the cure?  Why?  Did I miss something?  There's no way that little tube of blood sucked all the cure out of Elena.  So if human Elena would have injured herself and bled unknown to the MF crew, the cure would have been gone?

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1 hour ago, ByTor said:

So if human Elena would have injured herself and bled unknown to the MF crew, the cure would have been gone?

:handwaves :: It's magic! 

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