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S01.E06: Auditing 2017.01.03

10 minutes ago, Jade Foxx said:

Just wondering what would make a person lean more into Scientology,  vs.  let's say, Buddhism, or even the Hippie movement? Not the indoctrinated kids, I'm talking about the "free-willed" adults.  

Well I'm not sure about Buddhism, but in the early days of Scientology they did target hippies. They attracted people who wanted the higher consciousness without drugs  

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5 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

So why would you vent critical stuff to a family member or friend, when you know they are going to turn you in?  Maybe, they really secretly want to be turned in?

Because they are thinking like a sane person, not a Scientologist. If you see a loved one caught up in a bad situation, I think most normal people would take the chance of trying to help get them out of it.

This show has had a cumulative effect on me. Each week I think damn, how can these stories get any more heartbreaking, but they do. And though I appreciate hearing stories from the big names who have blown (Rinder, Scobee, Devocht, etc) hearing such agonizing stories from normal people such as Aaron and Mary Kahn has been in some ways more powerful. I can't imagine how difficult this show has been to make from an emotional and psychological standpoint, but if Leah and co. are up for making more episodes I will be there in a flash.

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Here's a link to Monday's What Went Down segment with Rinder and Leah talking about how difficult it is to get rid of Scientology thought patterns and beliefs. It's when he mentioned working on his lack of compassion.

Rinder's current wife has an interview segment and does say she was a Scientologist for 36 years. Even counting from 10 years old and being out for at least 5 years, that's one effective skin regimen.

With regard to Leah saying her instinct as a Scientologist was to help the woman on the beach ... hell no. I don't doubt Leah's sincerity, but to Scientologists, a drunk woman asking to buy drugs is considered to be a degraded being who is in that condition because of her own evil. Interacting with her would be putting Leah's salvation at risk.

Edited by lordonia.
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17 minutes ago, lordonia said:

Here's a link to Monday's What Went Down segment with Rinder and Leah talking about how difficult it is to get rid of Scientology thought patterns and beliefs. It's when he mentioned working on his lack of compassion.

Rinder's current wife has an interview segment and does say she was a Scientologist for 36 years. Even counting from 10 years old and being out for at least 5 years, that's one effective skin regimen.

I'm thinking she was born into it and she meant she started with the classes & teachings at 10 years old? 

Because no way she is 51 years old, 41 seems about right. Even though she does look younger then that. 

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5 hours ago, Jade Foxx said:

Just wondering what would make a person lean more into Scientology,  vs.  let's say, Buddhism, or even the Hippie movement? Not the indoctrinated kids, I'm talking about the "free-willed" adults.  

I read a short story decades ago about a man who killed his wife so he'd be sent to prison.  He wanted "the freedom of regimentation".  He'd get accommodation, job assignments, food, medical care, and not have a single responsibility about his personal life - not where to work, what to wear or eat, when to get up and retire, or what to do with his free time since he didn't have any.

This was fiction (I hope) and I think of this allegory in connection with cults like CO$.  There are people whose idea of The Answer is being relieved of personal responsibility under the guise of religion, because religion is supposed to be for the greater good, isn't it?

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What?! A&E says next week is the finale? WE WERE PROMISED EIGHT EPISODES!

The AMA special doesn't count.

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I listened to most of the Jason Beghe interview yesterday. I didn't really learn anything except how much some of the "texts" cost. (An early one was $50,000 and he had $60,000 in the bank. He bought it. The money involved in these stories boggles my mind.)

Unlike most everyone who has listened to it, I found he went off on too many tangents to understand much of his story.  He sounds more philosophical and existential than down to earth. Which is, I think, (strictly my opinion) a characteristic of someone who would seek out something like Scientology.

I didn't listen to all of it. I got bored.

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3 hours ago, SiobhanJW said:

I'm thinking she was born into it and she meant she started with the classes & teachings at 10 years old? 

Because no way she is 51 years old, 41 seems about right. Even though she does look younger then that. 

Rinder's wife is just one year older than his oldest daughter.....so yeah, she's a youngin.  Rinder's daughter mentions it often in the many internet bashings of Mike.

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Not sure if this has been mentioned elsewhere, but after watching this ep, I found some YouTube videos that easily debunk the E-Meter. It's basically the guts of a multimeter (used to test electronic equipment) with some useless knobs and displays attached. 

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6 hours ago, lordonia said:

Here's a link to Monday's What Went Down segment with Rinder and Leah talking about how difficult it is to get rid of Scientology thought patterns and beliefs. It's when he mentioned working on his lack of compassion.

Rinder's current wife has an interview segment and does say she was a Scientologist for 36 years. Even counting from 10 years old and being out for at least 5 years, that's one effective skin regimen.

With regard to Leah saying her instinct as a Scientologist was to help the woman on the beach ... hell no. I don't doubt Leah's sincerity, but to Scientologists, a drunk woman asking to buy drugs is considered to be a degraded being who is in that condition because of her own evil. Interacting with her would be putting Leah's salvation at risk.

I looked at that as another example of the dichotomy between what Scientology claims to be and what it is. People like Leah join because they think they are going to help people. But Scientology would say you don't actively help that person. You get them on the e-meter and audit their addiction out of them. 

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21 hours ago, laurakaye said:

I could've sworn Rinder's current wife said that she was a Scientologist for 36 years, and that she got into it when she was 10.  I clearly misheard, she's not that old.

Interestingly enough, I Googled Christie Collbran (Mike's current wife) and found an article written by Mike's daughter, Taryn Rinder, about her father and his second wife.  It's chilling, but written in the same juvenile style as the letters that Leah reads at the beginning of each episode.  Are they all trained to write that way?

http://www.whoismichaelrinder.com/articles/mike-rinder-christie-collbran-saddest-part.html

EDIT: I wandered over to the "Blog" portion of the above link.  I had to leave the site, it's just plain disturbing.

When talking about a defector they all have the same story.  They were abusive and violent.  Taryn chose to add that her dad did didn't love or care about his wife and children even with death and cancer.  I don't believe a word she said.  She went a little over board with her brother and melanoma story.   Though everything is creepy, lying about defectors is on my short list.  Do they really think we believe that?  

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9 hours ago, 3girlsforus said:

Well I'm not sure about Buddhism, but in the early days of Scientology they did target hippies. They attracted people who wanted the higher consciousness without drugs  

But from what I've read, they are VERY concerned about anyone who has ever used LSD, even years ago. It's my understanding that no one who has done so is even eligible for the Sea Org, or many other positions. Probably many of the "hippies" during that time had used.

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6 hours ago, SiobhanJW said:

I'm thinking she was born into it and she meant she started with the classes & teachings at 10 years old? 

Because no way she is 51 years old, 41 seems about right. Even though she does look younger then that. 

So I wasn't hearing things!  Gosh, she looks so young - and I too would like a list of every product she uses on her face STAT.

When this season gets renewed (because it simply has to - A&E ARE YOU LISTENING), I would love a segment where an engineer sits down with the E-meter and explains that there is no way this machine is capable of "auditing," or anything else.

Edited by laurakaye.
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1 minute ago, DangerousMinds said:

But from what I've read, they are VERY concerned about anyone who has ever used LSD, even years ago. It's my understanding that no one who has done so is even eligible for the Sea Org, or many other positions. Probably many of the "hippies" during that time had used.

And this is weird to me, because isn't it part of their core belief that these are exactly the people they claim to be able to help?

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4 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

But from what I've read, they are VERY concerned about anyone who has ever used LSD, even years ago. It's my understanding that no one who has done so is even eligible for the Sea Org, or many other positions. Probably many of the "hippies" during that time had used.

I read that too. In one of the books I read it talks about recruiitng "hippies"  but I dont remember what it said about LSD. Maybe they got them in but they were only allowed to dump money into auditing and books. 

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21 minutes ago, laurakaye said:

And this is weird to me, because isn't it part of their core belief that these are exactly the people they claim to be able to help?

Yes, and having done LSD a handful of times in my youth, I can assuredly say it caused me no lasting problems. And does not for most people. so I'm not sure where the LSD hysteria comes from.

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I don't think we can put a label on all people who get caught up in the COS, however, I think that it does appeal to a certain mindset.  I'm not even sure if maturity has anything to do with it.  As a child, I sat in a fundie audience looking around to see when my parents would see the thing for the farce it was, get up and walk out.  Sadly, they joined in and stayed.  For years, I was the child in the family, but the only one who saw the truth.  And that's why the COS has their own education goals.  Fundies wanted private church schools, home schools, fundie colleges or NO higher education.  You can't have people reading too much or using their own brains/

Does anyone know if any of the COS member's children now attend a COS day school or are they allowed to attend public schools? I suppose that if you have to attend COS seminars all day, you don't have time to go to a regular college. If so, how do they get high paying jobs that support the organization? 

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I do have to say that the ex-Scientology members we've seen on this show seem far more educated and intelligent than most fundies I'm aware of. So maybe they end up learning a few things.

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6 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

I do have to say that the ex-Scientology members we've seen on this show seem far more educated and intelligent than most fundies I'm aware of. So maybe they end up learning a few things.

Yes but I suspect that came after they left COS. It's just not possible for someone who has been doing nothing but auditor training since they were 10 to be fully educated. I also think that since many of these people had high ranking positions with specific business tasks, they were given more education than others might have been so they could do their jobs. 

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10 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

I do have to say that the ex-Scientology members we've seen on this show seem far more educated and intelligent than most fundies I'm aware of. So maybe they end up learning a few things.

Yeah. And related to that, for people who have not much education, all the people showcased seem to be doing exceptionally well financially after they leave.

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8 hours ago, lordonia said:

Here's a link to Monday's What Went Down segment with Rinder and Leah talking about how difficult it is to get rid of Scientology thought patterns and beliefs. It's when he mentioned working on his lack of compassion.

That was a powerful few minutes there and I loved how they both recognized the extremely bad things about CO$ including the lack of compassion for others. However, they were also taught in those endless auditing sessions to dig for the truth and Leah said she's not stopping until she gets to the heart of it. "You [CO$] taught me that" and now it's going to bite you in the behind. 

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1 hour ago, laurakaye said:

And this is weird to me, because isn't it part of their core belief that these are exactly the people they claim to be able to help?

They can become Scientologists; they just aren't eligible to work at Sea Org.  So basically, they can give the church all their money for courses, but they can't basically function as slave labor.

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48 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

Yeah. And related to that, for people who have not much education, all the people showcased seem to be doing exceptionally well financially after they leave.

I saw someone address this on twitter (it was a former Sea Org, but I can't remember who). They said that because they are used to working very long hours at a high standard, it usually is easy for them to find success when they leave. I can see that.  

Edited by AndreaK1041.
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13 hours ago, Josette said:

Synanon did that.  Not sure the CO$ ever did it to anyone.

I kept expecting to find out that the dog's collar was bugged or something. 

Yes! First thought that popped in my head when I saw that was check the collar.

When I was a kid we had a neighbor dog who would hop the fence to come play with our dogs and even come in our house sometimes, so I kind of get that, but she's probably super lonely. Which is sad considering that she probably joined to feel more connected in the first place.

Aaron made an interesting point about the "church" needing to change its policy on disconnection. I wouldn't be surprised if Miscaviage is overthrown at some point and they relax some of these policies in an effort to grow their numbers.

Surprised to see a Black lady as their spokesperson. I was like, "aww damn, come on sista!" Lol.

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1 hour ago, DangerousMinds said:

I do have to say that the ex-Scientology members we've seen on this show seem far more educated and intelligent than most fundies I'm aware of. So maybe they end up learning a few things.

I have to believe that comes from literacy because while they are not formally educated they read a lot and at a very high level. If they are used to reading and can do so with good comprehension they are going to have a greater vocabulary and be more well spoken.  They may not know math or chemistry or history (though they could learn from books they read after they leave if interested) but in conversation they will at least appear more intelligent. Compare that to most fundies that are home schooled or in fundie schools until about 5th grade.  They often leave with a reading level of around 3rd or 4th grade so they don't have the skills to comprehend newspapers or most adult books.  It doesn't mean that they are inherently less intelligent but they won't have the vocabulary and the understanding that will make them appear more intelligent.  

56 minutes ago, AndreaK1041 said:

I saw someone address this on twitter (it was a former Sea Org, but I can't remember who). They said that because they are used to working very long hours at a high standard, it usually is easy for them to find success when they leave. I can see that.  

This is something I was saying a while back.  When you are used to working 16 hours a day 7 days a week you will find a job and do well.  When you are the first person there, the last to leave, and your work is the best someone will notice.  Even when Rinder was selling cars I bet he had a solid skill set was more dogged and did better follow ups than most of the other salesmen.  

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15 hours ago, Shorty186 said:

I just finished Jenna's book last night. I hope if it gets renewed for another season they will talk to her as well.

I believe she's credited in the "thanks to" list of names in the credits.  So she may show up.

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2 hours ago, Enigma X said:

Yeah. And related to that, for people who have not much education, all the people showcased seem to be doing exceptionally well financially after they leave.

This is what I want addressed! I read the follow-up comments to this re: high reading level, and yeah sure. I just don't know that a good vocabulary & strong work ethic gets you THAT far these days? I'd like to hear about some people that BLEW & didn't have the high training (e.g., on computers & other electronics) that some of our examples have. How in the HELL do they support themselves?

This show is my favorite thing on right now!

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They did mention that Aaron's brother got his GED and was in college. I suspect the more successful ex-Scientologists take that path. 

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I'm going to chalk up the success ex-Scientologists seem to have had financially after leaving the church as the fact that they were smart enough to question the church and then get the fuck out, they've probably got something going on upstairs.  

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I cried when Aaron was talking about his brother. Such a sad story. The whole dog situation cracked me up.

I used to live in Tampa which is about 30 minutes away from Clearwater and I never knew there where that many Scientology centers there. I knew about the headquarters, but didn't realize they had these other offices.

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17 hours ago, Moose Andsquirrel said:

There have been some independent Scientology groups formed by people who escaped from the original CO$, but most peter out after a while.  Once they start questioning a part of it, they start to question everything and it all falls apart. 

There is an independent Scientology facility in Haifa, Israel, called the Dror Center, which is apparently quite successful. Tony Ortega visited last year and wrote about it. Of course, the fact that they welcomed Tony in for a tour & chat shows you that it isn't exactly a typical org...!

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5 hours ago, cmfran said:

Not sure if this has been mentioned elsewhere, but after watching this ep, I found some YouTube videos that easily debunk the E-Meter. It's basically the guts of a multimeter (used to test electronic equipment) with some useless knobs and displays attached. 

Yes I've been in the plant where they make them.  I posted about it in another thread here.  I worked there one summer in college when they made dash gages for Ford but they lost that contract to a factory in Mexico.  They kept themselves afloat with a skeleton crew of less than 30 I'd guess by landing the official exclusive contract to make e-meters. 

I didn't know that in advance when I saw a job opening for a QC tech/tester there some years later but got a tour and heard all about it during same during the interview.  They are nothing but cheapo, low end voltmeters. Anything set to mV scale is going to cause wild fluctuations on the scale when you hold positive and ground same as one you could buy at a Radio Shack (is that chain even in business anymore?).  It is all bunk.

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This series seems mostly interested in exposing what the church does to families and how it rips them apart, and how hard it was for people to leave the church. They really aren't getting into things like the actual belief system, or the auditing sessions, or how the e-meter works or what kind of education these people get or how they get involved in the church. It has a very specific slant.

I suspect they are trying to avoid insulting anyone who is or ever was a member of the church, so they steer clear of the minutia of the belief system so it doesn't sound like they're basically saying "Yeah, it's dumb, you'd  have to be dumb." Instead they emphasize the brainwashing aspect of it as a way of justifying a lot of it.

It's probably smart of them to stay focused on the emotional punch of these various stories where families were torn apart. But hopefully if they get another season they'll get more into the nitty gritty of the church.

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20 hours ago, lordonia said:

Adam is a much kinder person than me because I damned well would have prevented my dog from ever visiting Sue again. She doesn't deserve any sweet canine affection.

Yes.  This was my first thought.  All of us or no dog. But then he would be playing their game.  

He should have sent her VM to COS to report her speaking to them and fraternizing with their dog.  Gotta be 10 days in the hole, at least. 

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16 hours ago, mjstrick said:

Evidently they do it by taking a crap ton of niacin, running for 30 minutes, then spending 5 hours in a sauna.  Who knew I could have just saunaed my cancer away.  

Sad but true.  Exercise and Vitamin C.  I remember all that nonsense coming out when Cruise went after Brooke Shields and Matt Lauer.  

Scienos also believe that illness is a state of mind and if you are sick, you have brought it on yourself.  Loony.

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22 hours ago, Ina123 said:

I'm surprised it has taken this long for the craziness of CO$ to get this publicity.

I think it took a big name like Leah to leave and then start airing the nonsense, crap and abuse that goes on.  There have been sites like Tony Ortega's around for a while, as well as others, but I think most people just ignored info - - feeling it was too crazy to be believable or didn't want to address it.  With Leah speaking, it's pretty hard to ignore! 

I'm glad it's out now though.  The cult needed to be fully exposed and needs to be shut down.

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26 minutes ago, psychoticstate said:

Sad but true.  Exercise and Vitamin C.  I remember all that nonsense coming out when Cruise went after Brooke Shields and Matt Lauer.  

Scienos also believe that illness is a state of mind and if you are sick, you have brought it on yourself.  Loony.

You can really see this in the beginning of the letter Rinder's daughter wrote, the one linked in this thread. She goes on and on about hereditary medical issues in his family (diabetes, heart disease) and then says she feels it's only fair to warn his new wife about it. Who the hell does that? It read like she was going to warn his wife that Rinder had been accused of molestation or murder or something. But no, his grave sin was having diabetes in the family. To a Scientologist, that reflects on the person. Sickness isn't a function of being human. It's a function of not being a good enough Scientologist. 

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50 minutes ago, psychoticstate said:

Sad but true.  Exercise and Vitamin C.  I remember all that nonsense coming out when Cruise went after Brooke Shields and Matt Lauer.  

Scienos also believe that illness is a state of mind and if you are sick, you have brought it on yourself.  Loony.

But isn't someone at the higher levels supposed to be able to heal themselves/others?

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21 minutes ago, 3girlsforus said:

You can really see this in the beginning of the letter Rinder's daughter wrote, the one linked in this thread. She goes on and on about hereditary medical issues in his family (diabetes, heart disease) and then says she feels it's only fair to warn his new wife about it. Who the hell does that? It read like she was going to warn his wife that Rinder had been accused of molestation or murder or something. But no, his grave sin was having diabetes in the family. To a Scientologist, that reflects on the person. Sickness isn't a function of being human. It's a function of not being a good enough Scientologist. 

She said it runs in the family. He may not even have it! She was fishing. 

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37 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I suspect they are trying to avoid insulting anyone who is or ever was a member of the church, so they steer clear of the minutia of the belief system so it doesn't sound like they're basically saying "Yeah, it's dumb, you'd  have to be dumb." Instead they emphasize the brainwashing aspect of it as a way of justifying a lot of it.

It's probably smart of them to stay focused on the emotional punch of these various stories where families were torn apart. But hopefully if they get another season they'll get more into the nitty gritty of the church.

You're so right. I really feel like this series has been mostly focused on former members, their experiences, and their lives now. I get the impression that the series is really speaking to people with friends and family in the "church," or who may be members themselves afraid to leave (not that they'd be watching it, but you never know). They seem to really emphasize how happy and free and successful these former members seem to be now, and how easily they reconnected with their family and loved ones outside the "church" (like Marc Headley's story of calling his dad, afraid that he'd been as "dead" to his dad as his dad had been to him, only to be told "I've been waiting for this call for years!" - a common experience among many who Leah's interviewed), to try and cut through the culture of fear that the "church" creates, making its members believe that they have nothing without the "church," nowhere to go, no one to turn to...

Regarding Xenu, however, it's completely bonkers, but they are right not to delve into that topic right away. For many Scientologists, Xenu is not the root of their devotion or the reason they stay... many don't even know about him! As was pointed out in the "Going Clear" documentary, if you ask a member of ANY other legitimate religion (Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Amish... even the other ones that sometimes don't get taken seriously, like Mormons) WHAT exactly they believe, they can tell you! In fact, most legitimate religions are happy to answer questions about their beliefs and their organizations. But Scientologists aren't even TOLD what the core religious beliefs OF THEIR RELIGION are until they've already been in for 8 years, given their life savings, and created a social/support circle made up entirely of other believers. At which point the Xenu stuff becomes another means of controlling people. If they don't "believe" it, there's something wrong with them, and they need to complete intensive, expensive auditing until they "Clear" that story.  Questions are met with fear and punishment.

Xenu makes the "church" sound wacky, but that core belief (that many members don't even know about) is not what makes them harmful and dangerous, and pointing out how kooky their religion is is not an effective way of discrediting them. Especially when they have so many darker practices and abuses that need to be exposed. I do hope they touch on it, because it is TRULY unhinged, but they are right to keep the focus on the "church's" human rights abuses. That's where they're going to do the most good.

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1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

This series seems mostly interested in exposing what the church does to families and how it rips them apart, and how hard it was for people to leave the church. They really aren't getting into things like the actual belief system, or the auditing sessions, or how the e-meter works or what kind of education these people get or how they get involved in the church. It has a very specific slant.

 

When I was in film school, I was taught in Doc that you should always have a specific POV and story that you're telling. Honestly, if that did the whole family thing and then the auditing and then the belief system, it might muddy things up. You really only need to focus on the effect it has on families. That's more than enough. Everything else serves that specific story.

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I believe that this series is important, and that it is right not to delve into CO$ philosophy and stuff right away.  That stuff is downright seductive, they have had decades to perfect their pitch, and this show is about CRUSHING this cult, not inviting others to study it.

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OH yeah. Meant to say earlier that when Adam (?) was crying last night (well, I watched it last night), it gutted me. I started crying with him at some point. Those were some deep, for-real man tears. And then talking & crying?! Dude. I had a hard time falling asleep last night.

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Regarding the ex-Scienos being well-off now, in Amy Scobee's book, she said she and her husband were quickly able to find work at a packaging company where they built boxes on an assembly line. At the same time, they started restoring old pieces of furniture for themselves, but soon co-workers were asking for pieces and they realized they could sell a lot for a profit. So they quit their jobs and decided to go into business for themselves.

Also, since a lot of them live in Clearwater, I looked up the median home price on Zillow and it's only $194K. In addition, I think most of the other people who have been featured also live in cities with lower costs of living. Now, if they show someone living in a million dollar house in L.A. then I'd be really curious - and jealous.

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Rinder said, one day he googled COS and expected to see all the good they have been doing online.  Ha!

His high position made it possible to access a computer.  I would like to know how many have this ability.  Will they, can they block the words that will bring them to info? If that is possible I bet it being done now.  Are sea Org people allowed to have cell phones?  

Many live outside of their compound and can do this.  I wonder how many have done this and laying low?  How much info can one ignore?!

So many questions. 

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I think the producers/Leah have done a terrific job focusing on the abuses but still providing enough context about the basic belief systems so that viewers can understand how Scientologists are indoctrinated and why family members readily comply with disconnection and fair game policies.

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1 hour ago, psychoticstate said:

I think it took a big name like Leah to leave and then start airing the nonsense, crap and abuse that goes on.  There have been sites like Tony Ortega's around for a while, as well as others, but I think most people just ignored info - - feeling it was too crazy to be believable or didn't want to address it.  With Leah speaking, it's pretty hard to ignore! 

I'm glad it's out now though.  The cult needed to be fully exposed and needs to be shut down.

All of that, and they need to pay fucking taxes, just like the rest of us do.  Aside from their nauseating treatment of brainwashed cult members, their bullshit tax-exempt status is what infuriates me most.   

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3 hours ago, palmaire said:

I think the producers/Leah have done a terrific job focusing on the abuses but still providing enough context about the basic belief systems so that viewers can understand how Scientologists are indoctrinated and why family members readily comply with disconnection and fair game policies.

I agree.  Being followed is a perk for her message!  They are helping tell the story!  Ya gotta love that.

Edited by wings707.
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