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All Episodes Talk: Crime And Punishment

Anyone watch last night? The girl in the lake. I am not sure what to think.

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It’s really hard to know what really happened...but a plane going down that fast and he was very young..I am inclined to believe him.  He made the calls so she would be found.  He didn’t go on to become a criminal.  The plane went down 250 ft there is no way he could dive down and save her.

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He didn’t go on to be a criminal? Stealing a baby’s name, fake birth certificate, fake social security number, etc..... that’s criminal. He should have gone immediately to authorities, but he didn’t. He took the money and ran.  At least now everyone knows his name and face in case he tries to fool another woman like the one with the blue hair.

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I believe Michael/Jerry also had an arrest record in Texas for a couple break in/robberies. He did not live a clean life after.

I did not believe him. I think his call to his buddy told his true feelings about his girlfriend. I would not be surprised if he was the one that buckled her in. She had on both belts done up and it was twisted. He undid his before he attempted the landing. She was trapped. He loved her but took time to get out his belongings and the money. But not her? I don't believe he even tried. I think he took the opportunity to ditch her and take her money.

He can act like they were Romeo and Juliet. But Romeo would not have left her.

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Regarding last night's episode:  I had to smirk at the Dallas girlfriend's "honesty" requirements. Screw you, principles - I'll first accompany this dude to Japan and maybe afterwards I'll turn him in.

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2 hours ago, Jpxfactor said:

The plane went down 250 ft there is no way he could dive down and save her.

Interesting that he could get himself out as well as his duffel bag though.  It also begs the question, why did he run?  

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1 hour ago, cooksdelight said:

He didn’t go on to be a criminal? Stealing a baby’s name, fake birth certificate, fake social security number, etc..... that’s criminal.

On that note, I found it really disturbing how he was able to go as far as he did with his new life with these fake documents-going to a good school and moving up in the world and all that. It's like the stories I've heard about people using fake documents to fool the military, or other really high-profile, important lines of work, and get jobs there. Aren't there supposed to be people checking on this stuff and trying to stop these scammers ahead of time? How the hell do they manage to sneak by like that so easily for so long? 

I didn't believe the guy, either. It just seemed like such a really weird, elaborate, ludicrous plan. He was talking about how he was going to land the plane safely and he and his girlfriend would just calmly get out-yeah, you aren't Sully on the Hudson here, bud. And he did this at night, where it'd be harder to see and he has zero training for night flights or landings of any sort, let alone landing in water. If he was telling the truth and he genuinely believed it'd be that easy, then at best, he's an idiot. But given he's got the smarts to steal a plane, and commit various scams and frauds, obviously I don't think the "idiot" explanation fits here. 

I felt for her poor dad. You could see how painful the memories still were all this time later. And he lost his wife as well, and in such a heartbreaking way at that. 

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4 hours ago, applecrisp said:

Anyone watch last night? The girl in the lake. I am not sure what to think.

I don't know what to think either, which is why I came here to get other viewpoints.

I wondered why he didn't put the wheels up when trying to land in the lake. For sure those wheels were going to flip the plane if not make it break apart. I wasn't sure how he got out if the plane flipped and then he was "behind the plane and went to the wrong door" to try to get his girlfriend out. And supposedly the one bag (with th $22,000) floated out?

It seems like it was a good plan, they had packed a raft, had their bags wrapped in plastic and so forth.

If he meant to kill her, he could have pushed her out of the plane over that lake and kept going.

Her hair shut in the door is all kinds of weird though. Did he do that ... when? Before they left Canada? Was she dead already when he sunk the plane? Did the aircraft owner get an insurance payout when the plane was stolen? That was never mentioned.

What did the abortion have to do with anything? Did the boy kill the girl because she was pregnant? He didn't know about the abortion? That was so odd to mention it if it didn't mean anything.

2 hours ago, Midnight Sun said:

Screw you, principles - I'll first accompany this dude to Japan and maybe afterwards I'll turn him in.

I could totally follow her thinking. A free trip to Japan? Yeah, I woulda put my turn-in plans on hold too, although I'd make sure everyone knew where I was every minute in case he decided to kill me in Asia.

Her hesitation to turn him in is so common, I don't begrudge her that at all. Because she did after all.

Crazy that he went on to be so successful and wealthy. Goes to show, hardly anyone is who they appear to be.

I do think they had a plan to escape the floating plane. It sinking instantly wasn't in the plan.

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I'm wondering if the girl got the plane door open when they hit the lake, or the door popped open with the impact, but then she couldn't get her belt undone. The plane sinking pushed the door shut and caught her long hair in it.

Yeah, that makes sense to me.

I actually can understand him being on the run though. When I was that age, I knew everything and, looking back, nothing at all.

Edited by saber5055.
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I well believe she died of drowning.  What I don’t believe is the rest of the gaping holes in his story.  Even if I give him the benefit of the doubt and buy the crash was an accident, I find it less credible to believe he escaped with his belongings and all the money, but couldn’t help her, and then even if he had gotten free and couldn’t help her, why go ashore and burn everything and not say a word to anyone about the plane.  Maybe he didn’t purposely kill her, but I will never be convinced he tried at all to save her.  I also wonder if they did any toxicology screens because it seems odd that she showed no broken nails or any signs of trying to get free.  I won’t even get into the strange stuff he said on the phone…sheesh! 

Another thing that really bugged me that I haven’t seen mentioned is when Jerry (or whatever you prefer to call him) told Keith he was appalled at the way Diane’s parents acted towards him.  Appalled, really? I would understand him saying I feel bad or sad or sorry that her family feels that way, but maybe try some empathy.    

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1 hour ago, saber5055 said:

I wondered why he didn't put the wheels up when trying to land in the lake. For sure those wheels were going to flip the plane if not make it break apart. 

I don't think a small Cessna has retractable wheels.

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2 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

I don't think a small Cessna has retractable wheels.

Oh, well duh. I guess that would explain why they were down. You are correct! Thanks for the info!

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3 hours ago, Annber03 said:

On that note, I found it really disturbing how he was able to go as far as he did with his new life with these fake documents-going to a good school and moving up in the world and all that. It's like the stories I've heard about people using fake documents to fool the military, or other really high-profile, important lines of work, and get jobs there. Aren't there supposed to be people checking on this stuff and trying to stop these scammers ahead of time? How the hell do they manage to sneak by like that so easily for so long? 

I've wondered about that too when I hear stories like this.  I think there was much more involved in getting the deceased child's birth certificate than what he said.  I'm fairly certain Vital Records would ask questions that the only way he would know the answers to is if he first got his death certificate, like knowing Michael's parents names and maybe the mother's maiden name.  I don't think it's as easy to obtain a birth certificate from a stranger as he tried to make it seem.

I also had some doubts that the person who picked him up hitchhiking and brought him all the way to Dallas had also stole all of his money. That just seemed strange to me.  Not really sure why he would make something like that up, though. 

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OkeeDokee, here's an ice breaker:  You will all be sorry once I learn how to cast these spells.

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11 hours ago, Tenarife60 said:

I've wondered about that too when I hear stories like this.  I think there was much more involved in getting the deceased child's birth certificate than what he said.  I'm fairly certain Vital Records would ask questions that the only way he would know the answers to is if he first got his death certificate, like knowing Michael's parents names and maybe the mother's maiden name.  I don't think it's as easy to obtain a birth certificate from a stranger as he tried to make it seem.

 

I actually disagree. I went to the Town Hall just a couple weeks ago and and asked for a new copy of my daughter’s birth certificate. I gave her name and date of birth. The clerk pulled it up, printed it out, embossed it, asked for the $10 and I was on my way. I look a good 10-15 years younger than my age and she never questioned me asking for a 21 year old’s birth certificate. I was legit, so I didn’t question it. I live in a decent sized town (about 40,000). I didn’t know the clerk. So, I guess that should’ve been harder. 

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I don’t think he tried terribly hard to save her if he tried at all. I don’t necessarily think it was his intention that she die, but I don’t think he lost sleep over her loss except where it might get him in legal trouble. That he came out of the water with his clothes and the money does give me pause, but there’s no way he could know how she’d get stuck in the plane when they ditched it.  She did decide to do this crazy thing with him, in the end. 

He comes across as pretty damn unfeeling. The phone call from Texas proves to me that he could take her or leave her. Then, he’s apalled at her family’s behavior. He’s definitely an asshole. I do wish he’d at least gotten into some real trouble from all of the other BS he pulled. 

Also, why on earth did he confess to blue haired lady? I don’t get that. Did he want all of this to finally be dealt with, but couldn’t pull the trigger on it himself? 

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Rowan pretty much summed up my impressions. I could understand the panic and shock and reacting the way he did in the immediate aftermath, but the fact that he managed to save the duffel bag with his clothes and all the money is really convenient. I don't believe his version of what happened. 

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3 hours ago, Whimsy said:

I actually disagree. I went to the Town Hall just a couple weeks ago and and asked for a new copy of my daughter’s birth certificate. I gave her name and date of birth. The clerk pulled it up, printed it out, embossed it, asked for the $10 and I was on my way. I look a good 10-15 years younger than my age and she never questioned me asking for a 21 year old’s birth certificate. I was legit, so I didn’t question it. I live in a decent sized town (about 40,000). I didn’t know the clerk. So, I guess that should’ve been harder. 

That's proof that this can still easily be done, plus keep in mind the guy did this what, 20-plus years ago? No Internet, no cell phones, no one locked their doors, we all lived in a Leave It To Beaver world. Bad things just didn't happen. Heck, some people are even like that today when interviewed on the news after a mass murder in their neighborhood: "Those things never happen here." And Whimsy did this in today's world. Imagine how easy it was a couple decades ago.

Yeah, I totally believe he got mugged by the driver who gave him a ride (the kid might even have told him he had a bunch of money and was going to ... wherever ... to begin a new life/job/school/whatever). The kid also grew up with Leave It To Beaver so trusted the driver.

Thinking back, I went to college three states away. It was common for my boyfriend to hitchhike out to see me, then hitch back home again. I would make him signs to hold to show drivers where he was headed. Try to find anyone doing that today.

I'm still split as to whether I think he's guilty (of what though?) or not. Disappearing as he did, and for so long, and being just a kid at the time is pretty amazing and took some skillz. Plus being on American's Most Wanted for so long with no sightings. Mind boggling.

It was a good episode though. This show has OD'd on husband/wife being murdered by wife/husband for insurance money and/or for cheating. That's the stuff that's common these days, and happens everywhere.

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6 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Rowan pretty much summed up my impressions. I could understand the panic and shock and reacting the way he did in the immediate aftermath, but the fact that he managed to save the duffel bag with his clothes and all the money is really convenient. I don't believe his version of what happened. 

Ya, I don't either. I was also annoyed that Keith kept referring to the girlfriend who died as sweet and innocent. She didn't deserve to die, but she went willingly and was an accomplice in stealing a plane. A frickin' plane! That would be a step or two up from stealing a car, and had she lived and they were both caught, she would have been convicted and served time right along with him. And I don't buy the young and naive argument that some might make. I am only a few years older than Diane, and I certainly knew at her age that stealing a plane and attempting to disappear without a trace would not be good idea. And a horrible thing to do to my family. 

I was surprised that such a smart guy made such a dumb mistake by lying about his age, all the while wearing a class ring that pretty much proved that he was lying. I wonder how much longer he could have escaped detection had he not confessed to the girlfriend (who's name I cannot remember). 

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1 hour ago, UsernameFatigue said:

I was also annoyed that Keith kept referring to the girlfriend who died as sweet and innocent. She didn't deserve to die, but she went willingly and was an accomplice in stealing a plane. A frickin' plane! That would be a step or two up from stealing a car, and had she lived and they were both caught, she would have been convicted and served time right along with him. And I don't buy the young and naive argument that some might make. I am only a few years older than Diane, and I certainly knew at her age that stealing a plane and attempting to disappear without a trace would not be good idea. And a horrible thing to do to my family. 

First, all dead girls are sweet and innocent. In fact, everyone who dies becomes saint-like. Good point that she was an accomplice in stealing a plane. Did the show say why the two were running away to begin new lives somewhere else? Change identities, make their families believe they were dead? What was up with that? What was their home life like that they would do that?

1 hour ago, UsernameFatigue said:

I was surprised that such a smart guy made such a dumb mistake by lying about his age, all the while wearing a class ring that pretty much proved that he was lying.

A better question is, what 44-year-old guy wears a class ring?

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15 hours ago, Whimsy said:

I actually disagree. I went to the Town Hall just a couple weeks ago and and asked for a new copy of my daughter’s birth certificate. I gave her name and date of birth. The clerk pulled it up, printed it out, embossed it, asked for the $10 and I was on my way. I look a good 10-15 years younger than my age and she never questioned me asking for a 21 year old’s birth certificate. I was legit, so I didn’t question it. I live in a decent sized town (about 40,000). I didn’t know the clerk. So, I guess that should’ve been harder. 

In my state, anyone can request one. You do have to show your ID and fill out a form. But you just pay the fee and get it.

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It's a small thing, but I wasn't thrilled that Dateline gave him a plug for his book about the whole story.  It just rubs me the wrong way that this guy got away with a slap on the wrist for (at least) negligent homicide, identity theft, document forgery, and plane theft and is now profiting off the sale of his book.  

Nevertheless, I was super-glad Keith was back.

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Did the show say why the two were running away to begin new lives somewhere else? Change identities, make their families believe they were dead? What was up with that? What was their home life like that they would do that?

There was a suspicious lack of family commentary in this story, just as there was last week. There was an early narrative about the pair being star-crossed like Romeo and Juliet, and that her parents didn't approve because he was from the "wrong side of the tracks." Then the reporter said she spoke with the girl's parents and they denied being against the relationship. However, neither her family nor his family made any appearances on the show to speak for themselves and little was said about either of them.

You would think the girl's family would want the chance to speak out against the injustice of this guy getting away with his crimes, and you would also think if his own family supported and believed him they would likewise want to stand up for him. The silence from both camps is indeed interesting.

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5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

You would think the girl's family would want the chance to speak out against the injustice of this guy getting away with his crimes, and you would also think if his own family supported and believed him they would likewise want to stand up for him. The silence from both camps is indeed interesting

I mostly love Dateline, and that includes sometimes loving to hate it, but I get not wanting to put your personal life on blast. If I was a potential talking head in a case Dateline wanted to feature, and thank the stars I live a pretty boring life, I would politely decline. I mean that shit has got to be hard both ways. Whether you’re the loved one of the deceased or you’re the loved one of the perpetrator of the crime, I can’t imagine wanting to relive that stuff on camera. 

The only way I think I could stomach it is if I was one of those people who felt they needed to defend someone’s innocence. I’d really have to have no doubts though, and even then, I still wouldn’t  want to. 

Edited by Rowan.
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It was brought up that she had just had an abortion, I think possibly the original plan to leave together might have been motivated by the pregnancy.  I grew up where they lived and actually knew of some of her relatives.  There were a lot of rumours,  that she was pregnant and maybe he didn't really want it was one I recall.  The other was they were eloping and also that they were possibly involved in drugs.  There were many rumours but those were the main ones I recall.  It was a real unsolved mystery.  I also seem to recall watching another show about him and his capture a few years ago, he was caught in 2006 I believe.

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Did anyone watch the Pizza Bomber episode Friday night? I kept doing other things so pretty much missed most of the narrative after the sequence of events was figured out so was hoping to get some insight here. (I guess I can google it, duh.) I do remember seeing the pizza guy with the bomb around his neck on the news though. Nightmare.

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I watched and watched the documentary on Netflix. I highly recommend it.

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I watched the first hour, but I've seen the Netflix doc, and Dateline didn't seem to be covering anything new. I haven't erased it yet, so let me know if it's worth watching the second hour.

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5 hours ago, tobeannounced said:

I watched the first hour, but I've seen the Netflix doc, and Dateline didn't seem to be covering anything new. I haven't erased it yet, so let me know if it's worth watching the second hour.

To be honest I got bored with it and got up started doing other things.  Why two weeks in a row Dateline is bringing us really old news stories?

Edited by endure.
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1 hour ago, tobeannounced said:

I watched the first hour, but I've seen the Netflix doc, and Dateline didn't seem to be covering anything new. I haven't erased it yet, so let me know if it's worth watching the second hour.

No new info and the doc was way more entertaining.

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Another rerun on tonight. I watched part of it, then Googled her name and found out the ending. So I could not waste 2 hours. Again.

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