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Season Three Redux - the Slave Labor Graphics Gargoyles comics

I finally found a way to read Greg Weisman's out-of-print official Season 3 comic books from Slave Labor Graphics. I remember when they started to hit the newsstands thinking that the art was a big let-down. Apparently it got better with time but the series was ultimately cancelled.

Did anybody read these or the Bad Guys series? If so, what did you like/dislike about them?

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It annoys me that a) I missed these when they were released and b) they are impossible to get these days. I only read the first collected volume (Clan Builiding Vol 1) and I don't remember a whole lot about it except doesn't Elisa go on a date with Morgan?! I remember finding that very bizarre.

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Yeah, I heard about that when the issues were first released. Morgan as a potential boyfriend comes out of left field, especially since Goliath and Elisa were just starting to date. I chose to stay away until I heard better things about the series...thankfully I can read them through now.

Let's read them through together!

Issues 1 & 2 retell the story of the first episode of the third season, which Greg apparently wrote or at least provided an outline of. I've never watched that episode so I don't know how faithful this comic is to it.

I think the story is a little padded out for what it is. Essentially we see a group known as The Quarrymen gather for a KKK style rally and then attempt to destroy Goliath when he is sleeping on the roof of Elisa's apartment. They are supposed to be on their first official date, and instead are chased down by these attackers in their fancy helicopter. This goes on and on and on until the leader and one of the new recruits (that supporting character who once threw a pie at the Gargoyles) have Goliath and Elisa cornered in the remains of the Clock Tower. The leader gets pissed at the new recruit for deciding he doesn't really want to hurt anybody, and then Goliath gets the upper hand only for the leader to escape via helicopter. The new recruit decides to move to Japan for his new job and Elisa and Goliath wish him well. It's pretty generic and didn't need to play out over the course of 40 pages. We learn nothing much about the origins of The Quarrymen, and it doesn't make much sense that the new recruit joins as randomly as he does, considering he already knows gargoyles aren't as dangerous as they are being made out to be.

I enjoyed the glimpses of the clan back in the castle, especially of Lexington playing with young Alex while glaring at Fox, and it was bizarre to find out that Margot is actually the district attorney of New York, what with her bizarre pink headband and total lack of composure throughout the animated series. She and Macbeth are interviewed on a late-night television show debating the potential threat of gargoyles. He has apparently written a book on the creatures, which surprised me because I don't remember him ever wanting to be an author.

The biggest weird point of the issue is Goliath suddenly being sullen about the thought of being "alone". Hadn't he just finished a world tour that revealed the existence of dozens and dozens of other gargoyles? Hadn't he just hooked up with Elisa? Hadn't they just regained their ancestral home? That seems like a lot to be upbeat about.

It's pretty clear his attitude was written purely to motivate his flashback that recaps the history of clan and then to provide the end of the story with a feeling of resolution when he cheers up and smiles with Elisa after nearly dying...but it still felt artificial and out-of-charactercter.

As for the art, it isn't...terrible, per se. It just feels very rough. Proportions are off, layouts are weak and one gets the sense that the artist is new to the field. A good inker could have helped slightly...but ultimately, they would have been wise to get the cover artist, who was an actual artist on the animated series, to provide interiors as well. I suppose money was an issue there, but this was not the art anybody wanted to see out of a long-awaited Gargoyles book.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Disney upped the cost of the license to prevent SLG from continuing to publish it. Maybe they felt it was doing damage to the brand?

 

I'll chime back in with a review of issue 3 and whatever follows!

Edited by DisneyBoy.
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Well, the animated third season was mostly terrible except for the first two episodes, and I would say the comic hews pretty closely to those two episodes overall (there are some minor changes of course, but I can't remember details because it's been ages since I saw those episodes and I don't think they are currently available anywhere). I think it's mostly just supposed to work as a set up for the season, pitting the Quarrymen (and NYC) against the Gargoyles. The thing I like about the comics/episodes was that we see a lot of recurring characters from earlier episodes (Margot [totally unbelievable ADA] and poor hapless Vinnie). I agree though, the art on a whole is pretty rough and the comics could have actually delved a lot more into the origins of the Quarrymen, but they just remain a generic xenophobic hate group (which still works in today's world). As a set up it's ok but not great, and it is pretty bland unless you've been following the series as a whole and love the characters.

I wish Disney would either let go of the Gargoyles license or do something with it... Greg Weisman has been working with Marvel on their Star Wars books (the Kanan series in particular) so why not let him go back and work on Gargoyles again?!

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The third season was horrible--not only in the thin plots (Word on your comment about Margot the bigot, who is now ADA @catray), but the cheap animation. I think I mentioned this in the season's thread, but I didn't like how...white they made Goliath when he had that dream/nightmare, where he's human and was never a Gargoyle. In the original, first season, "The Mirror" when he became human for a nano-second, he had the look of a man who was Native American, or someone who was person of color. That pale-faced, buzzed hair dude? Blech. His human self in the first season? ROWR! along with his long, black locks.

What?

Edited by GHScorpiosRule.
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That third season episode was one of the few I watched just to see what they would do with the human concept and I was also immediately struck by the fact that he was white. I guess it shouldn't be surprising considering the way white is considered the default in North America, but I definitely don't think of Goliath as white. And it's not just because Keith David provides the voice. There's just something wonderful about how this show makes you want to see people of all different colors and creeds represented.

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2 minutes ago, DisneyBoy said:

That third season episode was one of the few I watched just to see what they would do with the human concept and I was also immediately struck by the fact that he was white. I guess it shouldn't be surprising considering the way white is considered the default in North America, but I definitely don't think of Goliath as white. And it's not just because Keith David provides the voice. There's just something wonderful about how this show makes you want to see people of all different colors and creeds represented.

True, but what separated this show from everything else, during the time, was its diversity of the characters, and how they were animated.  Derek and Elisa, brother and sister--children of an interracial couple-half Native American, half African American, with Derek favoring mom, and Elisa, favoring her father. And their lieutenant, who was Latina. Or Hispanic. Apologies if I'm getting her racial make-up incorrect.  So it was very disappointing to see what they did to Goliath in this horrible, horrible, third season.

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Yeah, when you consider when Gargoyles was on the air, it's actually ahead of it's time in terms having a diverse cast of characters, especially with Elisa as the main (or co) protagonist of the series! Personally, I love that the gargoyles come in all colors/shapes/features... all unique and beautiful in their own way, which says a lot.

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That's exactly what I was getting at. I don't think of a human Goliath as a Bruce Wayne clone. But then if I recall correctly the Goliath Chronicles also showed the Gargoyles recklessly battling with human beings with no regard for their safety. The Gargoyles in the episodes Weisman produced always showed great restraint.

 

And now for my reviews of issues 3, 4, 5 and 6!

 

I really liked seeing another halloween-themed story as well as the ensuing costumes. Lexington, Broadway and Angela as the Tin Man, Cowardly Lion and Dorothy made perfect sense. And considering the way Weisman was trying to separate Brooklyn from the group in preparation for a spin-off, I suppose I shouldn't have been surprised that his costume deviated from The Wizard of Oz theme. Instead of being the Scarecrow to complete the trio, he's Superman. Clearly this guy wants to be his own leading character and not a supporting one in someone else's story. A subtle touch.

I'm not sure that I agree that Brooklyn should have his own series, whether an animated one or in comics, but I suppose Weisman had his own ideas there.

I like catching up with all of the supporting characters, but you quickly see how dense the Gargoyles mythology gets when you cram a dozen or more into a book like this. I was never really clear on the purpose of creating clones like Hollywood, Brentwood and Malibu in the first place. The tampering with nature theme had already been dealt with when Elisa's brother Derek was transformed...did they have to continue down a similar road by combining DNA samples to make clones? I'm waiting for them to serve a purpose or become interesting. Once again here they are presented as intellectually stunted and the free will question is repeated yet again. To what end?

Delilah is used very poorly here, as a literal replacement for Elisa in Goliath's life. The drama between these two lovebirds is undeniably forced and sudden... but to have Goliath start parading around with a clone of his two exes is about the least classy thing I can think of. Elisa randomly dating Morgan feels normal by comparison. Whatever. The entire subplot is dumb and thankfully the book has better things to offer than just that.

I'm interested to see where the Illuminati subplot is going and I like that Weisman is fleshing that whole thing out a bit and not just relying on The Quarrymen as the driving force behind the narrative.

Hudson coming out to his blind friend, so to speak, is also a nice touch if a bit random. I like their relationship and hoped to see the supporting character get a bit more time in the spotlight...unlike Margot who continues to baffle me. Her schtick of whining at her boyfriend was fine in the animated series but now that she's supposed to be someone of prominence in New York City it's just grating. Break up or shut up.

The final story of the first volume of Clan Building is a World Tour flashback tale explaining how Goliath, Elisa, Bronx and Angela stumbled across Coldstone near a monastery. It doesn't give us much more than that and serves only to reiterate the internal conflict within the character which has been so clearly defined in the past I wonder why it needed to once again be the focus of an entire issue. Is Weisman aiming these books at drawing in new readers? It feels like he's trying to, while at the same time pushing the story forward. It should be working except it doesn't seem to be. There's something clunky about it.

I have no idea who this goth narrator chick is who attends to Thailog as though he's a Greek Emperor. At first I thought she was some kind of clone of Elisa based on the vague artwork. Is she from the show? How does she know anything about the World Tour?

Artwork in the book is a little bit more stable with guest artist Karine Charlebois proving most adept at capturing the look of the series. You can clearly tell she loves the animation from the show and wants to replicate it for other fans and that is appreciated. Her take on Elisa isn't all that strong, but I'll forgive it for her masterful depiction of the Gargoyles and willingness to use screen captures as reference. Nice angles and proportions too!

If the book had been released on time, if there had been one stable artist doing all of the work on the interior pages, if they hadn't pushed this bizarre Goliath/Elisa premature breakup and maybe dialed back featuring all the clones so early in the run I think this series would have been a much bigger hit.

 

I'll take a break before reviewing Vol 2 and the final issues so that we all have a chance to discuss.

Edited by DisneyBoy.
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1 hour ago, catray said:

Yeah, when you consider when Gargoyles was on the air, it's actually ahead of it's time in terms having a diverse cast of characters, especially with Elisa as the main (or co) protagonist of the series! Personally, I love that the gargoyles come in all colors/shapes/features... all unique and beautiful in their own way, which says a lot.

Not just that, but very daring, considering it was a show geared toward children--and they showed the blood pooling underneath Elisa when Broadway accidentally shot her. That remains one of my favorite episodes. Though the top faves are the ones that demonstrated the growing romance/love between Elisa and Goliath. Yes! I TOTALLY shipped them! And cackled when Demona saw that relationship unfolding!

ETA: And on that note, I think I'll go rewatch! Season One, here I come!

Edited by GHScorpiosRule. Reason: Because Bronx was the DOG Gargoyle! yeesh.
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Okay, I admit it, I couldn't wait and binged on the final issues...

 

Clan Building Vol 2 was really tricky for me to follow. Weisman really enjoys having a cast of dozens and it makes it impossible for me to keep track of what's going on much less about the emotional arcs of the characters. The story about the Stone of Destiny jumped around so much in time that I honestly couldn't get any enjoyment out of it until it was almost over and I could put things into a bit of perspective. And was it necessary to devote several panels to the idea of Fox buying a pair of shoes, just so that we knew where the shoe box that was believed to be a bomb would come from? This jumping through time approach to narrative structure sometimes yields interesting results. Here it was just complicating the story. At least for me.

David Hedgecock's artwork improved quite a bit but by and far the best work in the second volume was that of Greg Guler, though that shouldn't be a surprise. He was a character designer on the animated series and has worked in the animation industry for years. It's a real shame he didn't get to do more than just cover art on these issues.

My favorite story was definitely the final one, begun in issue 10, simply because it's pretty straightforward. Brooklyn ends up swallowed by the Phoenix of the Phoenix Gate, and sent back in time to deal with two characters left over from the Avalon storyline. I couldn't keep track of any of the Scottish politics however. I feel like I need to have studied as much as Weisman to understand exactly who is who. So many weird Scottish names! Nevertheless, the story was straightforward enough that I could enjoy seeing Brooklyn trying to help these two ladies escape certain death, team up with Demona, and ultimately return to the present of 1997.

I wonder though if Weisman really intended for issue 12 to conclude with so many gargoyles as part of the Manhattan Clan. I liked seeing Griff again and got a bit of a kick out of his two presumably gay cohorts, the female pig gargoyle and the male reindeer, who I only assume is supposed to become Lex's boyfriend at some point.

The Timedancer spin-off presumably would have not spoiled the reveal of Brooklyn's ultimate mate right off the bat, right? So to have him just return from the future saying "Meet my family!" is a bit awkward and disappointing. It suggests that Weisman tacked it into the final issue knowing the series was essentially cancelled.

I'm picking on this simply because I don't know how on earth he would write around that big surprise reveal if a Gargoyles comic book series ended up getting published again someday. Doesn't it take a bit of the excitement out of Brooklyn's story to know how it ends? Plus, I'm just getting really sick of flashbacks in the Gargoyles universe. I would definitely prefer a chronological narrative if only because I can't keep everything straight even with little boxes to remind me which century and which month of which year we are in. *sigh*

I'll give him credit for covering a lot of territory in these 12 issues, but I feel like the time was slightly misused. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad we didn't just spend 12 issues watching the Quarrymen do their thing, but there was just way too much to chew on here to the point where only the most fanatical of Gargoyles enthusiasts will remember who half these characters are well enough to follow what's happening. I've watched the entire series through at least twice and as I said I often found myself drawing a blank.

Apparently the Bad Guys comic continued to explore the idea of the Illuminati. Did anybody read it and if so, did it push that narrative forward in any significant way? Or, like this book did it just give us more and more and more supporting characters to try and keep track of?

I guess it sounds like I'm complaining and didn't enjoy reading these, but I would prefer if Gargoyles would keep it simple and let the reader actually get invested in certain characters.

The coloring in the book was really strong and I'm glad at least that we got to have moments with so many characters. Brooklyn seeing his own statue was interesting, and Macbeth and Arthur talking about immortality was definitely memorable.

There is so much potential for this property if only Weisman wouldn't complicate matters to the point of turning readers off. I hope he gets the chance to write for these characters again and soon. Otherwise Disney will just reboot the whole property in a couple of years as a CGI film or live action film and everything will be changed.

This is just a detail, but does it change anything significant in the continuity of the television series for Demona of 1997 to remember that Brooklyn fought alongside her after his clan was put to sleep in the past?

Edited by DisneyBoy.
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On ‎9‎/‎15‎/‎2016 at 10:15 AM, DisneyBoy said:

She and Macbeth are interviewed on a late-night television show debating the potential threat of gargoyles. He has apparently written a book on the creatures, which surprised me because I don't remember him ever wanting to be an author.

The biggest weird point of the issue is Goliath suddenly being sullen about the thought of being "alone". Hadn't he just finished a world tour that revealed the existence of dozens and dozens of other gargoyles? Hadn't he just hooked up with Elisa? Hadn't they just regained their ancestral home? That seems like a lot to be upbeat about.

I'll chime back in with a review of issue 3 and whatever follows!

Issues 1 and 2 is pretty much word for word of 'The Journey.' MacBeth had to make money someway over the years. ;) Besides he has to do something beside chasing Demona for nearly a 1000 years. I can see MacBeth writing a book. He's lived through history so he can be more accurate than anyone. I was surprised at him coming to the defense of the gargoyles but then I remembered MacBeth isn't essentially a bad guy and doesn't have hatred towards all gargoyles. Just Demona. 

I think Goliath moaning about being alone is a plot point. I think after the World Tour a burdened was released from him. Ever since he awakened in Manhattan, Goliath thought they were the last gargoyles and their kind will end with them. Since the World Tour, he realized that's not the case and he knows after him, their kind will go on and so will his clan with Brooklyn as leader.

I totally agree about Goliath being upbeat at the end of Season Two. Sure the world knows about gargoyles but he's ultimately happy. His clan is back at their ancestral home and his love for Elisa is being received and they are going to go forward with it.

On ‎9‎/‎15‎/‎2016 at 7:49 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

In the original, first season, "The Mirror" when he became human for a nano-second, he had the look of a man who was Native American, or someone who was person of color. That pale-faced, buzzed hair dude? Blech. His human self in the first season? ROWR! along with his long, black locks.

What?

I'm with you on sexy chocolate Goliath in The Mirror. LOL! If they were stuck human, Elisa would've been all over him that same night. I imagine if Elisa was stuck a gargoyle, Goliath would be pursuing her as a mate immediately.

 

On ‎9‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 7:36 PM, DisneyBoy said:

I'm not sure that I agree that Brooklyn should have his own series, whether an animated one or in comics, but I suppose Weisman had his own ideas there.

I like catching up with all of the supporting characters, but you quickly see how dense the Gargoyles mythology gets when you cram a dozen or more into a book like this. I was never really clear on the purpose of creating clones like Hollywood, Brentwood and Malibu in the first place. The tampering with nature theme had already been dealt with when Elisa's brother Derek was transformed...did they have to continue down a similar road by combining DNA samples to make clones? I'm waiting for them to serve a purpose or become interesting. Once again here they are presented as intellectually stunted and the free will question is repeated yet again. To what end?

Delilah is used very poorly here, as a literal replacement for Elisa in Goliath's life. The drama between these two lovebirds is undeniably forced and sudden... but to have Goliath start parading around with a clone of his two exes is about the least classy thing I can think of. Elisa randomly dating Morgan feels normal by comparison. Whatever. The entire subplot is dumb and thankfully the book has better things to offer than just that.

The final story of the first volume of Clan Building is a World Tour flashback tale explaining how Goliath, Elisa, Bronx and Angela stumbled across Coldstone near a monastery. It doesn't give us much more than that and serves only to reiterate the internal conflict within the character which has been so clearly defined in the past I wonder why it needed to once again be the focus of an entire issue. Is Weisman aiming these books at drawing in new readers? It feels like he's trying to, while at the same time pushing the story forward. It should be working except it doesn't seem to be. There's something clunky about it.

I have no idea who this goth narrator chick is who attends to Thailog as though he's a Greek Emperor. At first I thought she was some kind of clone of Elisa based on the vague artwork. Is she from the show? How does she know anything about the World Tour?

Artwork in the book is a little bit more stable with guest artist Karine Charlebois proving most adept at capturing the look of the series. You can clearly tell she loves the animation from the show and wants to replicate it for other fans and that is appreciated. Her take on Elisa isn't all that strong, but I'll forgive it for her masterful depiction of the Gargoyles and willingness to use screen captures as reference. Nice angles and proportions too!

If the book had been released on time, if there had been one stable artist doing all of the work on the interior pages, if they hadn't pushed this bizarre Goliath/Elisa premature breakup and maybe dialed back featuring all the clones so early in the run I think this series would have been a much bigger hit.

 

I'll take a break before reviewing Vol 2 and the final issues so that we all have a chance to discuss.

I wonder if Weisman wanted to give Brooklyn his own series due to his friendship with voice actor Jeff Bennett or maybe  a way of making it up to fans for not displaying Brooklyn a lot. I can't remember if it was on a commentary or on the Ask Greg blog that's on the Gargoyles website where Weisman admitted surprise at Brooklyn being a fan favorite. Weisman was clueless to the fact fans didn't like how Hudson and the trio and Matt were written out during the World Tour. I love Goliath and Elisa but I agree they shouldn't have been written out. If anything, during the World Tour maybe one episode should've occurred in New York and the other three on the World Tour. Thankfully Greg Paur wisened Weisman that we needed to see what's happening with the gargoyles in New York.

Maybe Greg did so many flashbacks because he thought the readers needed a refresher but we don't. We have the DVDs.

I personally thought the Goliath and Elisa breakup was forced and came out of left field. They are gonna have enough drama as it is with their relationship from outsiders, they don't need to add anything among themselves. Other than Beth and maybe her Mom I can't imagine Elisa's Dad and Derek being entirely supportive and what of the clan? Sure they accept Elisa and love her but I'm not sure if everyone will be on board with them. I think Hudson and maybe Lexington might question it. I think they would come around but in the beginning I think there would be doubts and concerns. 

Goliath only paraded Delilah because Elisa told him to date her which is stupid on so many levels. Bad execution all around.

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I suppose I don't have any standing in saying this, as I haven't read the comics, but just based on what I read above, say whaaaat? Goliath and Elisa are broken up???!!!! See Thee Naaaaay!!!!

As for Derek not being supportive of this relationship? Hellooo!!! Unless he's no longer Talon, makes no...oh wait. Maggie's not human, so I guess that has some merit. I guess.

I'm pretty sure the rest of the Clan knew how Goliath and Elisa felt about each other, and even in "Journey" when he tells Hudson and Brooklyn that he's going to see Elisa, they seem happy...that is, no words about any concerns, considering that it was a social visit. Then again, it was tv/cartoon, and geared toward kids, so I doubt they'd write that in, considering the build up to the relationship/romance between Goliath and Elisa.

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On ‎9‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 7:25 PM, catray said:

Yeah, when you consider when Gargoyles was on the air, it's actually ahead of it's time in terms having a diverse cast of characters, especially with Elisa as the main (or co) protagonist of the series! Personally, I love that the gargoyles come in all colors/shapes/features... all unique and beautiful in their own way, which says a lot.

I remember my Mom saying Gargoyles was a very mature show for a cartoon and she's right. It dealt with so many themes like racism, gun violence, tolerance, that you don't see in cartoons, especially today. I have to explain. The reason my Mom saw Gargoyles is because of Awakening Part Two. She was cooking dinner when she heard Xanatos say "Hell." She was concerned Hell was being used in a cartoon and she questioned me on what kind of show this was. LOL! She sat  with me through the rest of episode and since I had already taped "Awakening" that evening we watched the whole thing. Mom gave her approval and  thought it was a good but a very mature show for kids. She asked "When did cartoons get so mature?" LOL! Even though she didn't watch every episode with me, she did watch a few. I remember watching 'Vows' with Mom. When Goliath went to the wedding, I was mad and Mom said, "Goliath is going to be in the doghouse with Elisa for a while." LOL!  

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21 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I suppose I don't have any standing in saying this, as I haven't read the comics, but just based on what I read above, say whaaaat? Goliath and Elisa are broken up???!!!! See Thee Naaaaay!!!!

As for Derek not being supportive of this relationship? Hellooo!!! Unless he's no longer Talon, makes no...oh wait. Maggie's not human, so I guess that has some merit. I guess.

I'm pretty sure the rest of the Clan knew how Goliath and Elisa felt about each other, and even in "Journey" when he tells Hudson and Brooklyn that he's going to see Elisa, they seem happy...that is, no words about any concerns, considering that it was a social visit. Then again, it was tv/cartoon, and geared toward kids, so I doubt they'd write that in, considering the build up to the relationship/romance between Goliath and Elisa.

They broke up temporary. Elisa visit Jason Canmore who reveal he knew who the someone else is and got in her head that Elisa should be with a MAN who could give her everything and in Jason's opinion that's not Goliath. Elisa went to Goliath suggesting they break up because he can't give her everything like normalcy, picnics in the day, kids and a house in the suburbs. Elisa told Goliath he should be with someone who could give him what he needed and there's a potential mate for him in Delilah. Goliath's reaction is WTF?  But he did what Elisa said, asked Delilah out and totally C-block Brooklyn who was going to ask Delilah out. LOL! Elisa came to her senses when Goliath nearly died at the Halloween party and they got back together.

Derek is 'special' I think Derek and any family opposing the relationship might be concern at what dangers it will bring her. They would have some valid points. Elisa nearly died many times because of  her ties to the Gargoyles and with the creation of the Quarryman, you know what they will do to Elisa if they knew how close she and Goliath were.

Same with any gargoyles questioning the relationship. Brooklyn and Broadway would be cool with it, especially Broadway.  I think Lexington might question it because he may still have some jaded feelings towards humans because of Fox and in Future Tenses which Puck never said it was a dream or prophecy. I think Hudson may have parental concerns because there is inherit danger of the two coming together. But like I said in another post they would come around.

I really wished we got to see Demona's reaction to the relationship. She's always suspected but seeing Goliath makeout with Elisa would be definitive proof and seeing her go nuts and try to plot some crazy revenge would've been glorious!

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That Elisa would even listen to Jason after what he did...UGH...GRRRRRRRR....ARGHHHH!!!!!!!!

When I can afford it, I'll have to get those issues. How many are we talkin' aboot here?

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There were two volumes. I got mine on Amazon three years ago but it's out of print there and the sellers prices are crazy. I don't know who else will sell them at a reasonable price.

I scanned them for a friend when I got them but it's on an old computer. I can send them to you if you want. 

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12 minutes ago, Arcadiasw said:

There were two volumes. I got mine on Amazon three years ago but it's out of print there and the sellers prices are crazy. I don't know who else will sell them at a reasonable price.

I scanned them for a friend when I got them but it's on an old computer. I can send them to you if you want. 

No worries. @DisneyBoy sent me a link as to where I can get them. I haven't checked it out or what the price is.

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Just click the link ;) It's all 12 issues of fun, mixed with a teeny bit of hun?? and some yikes!

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I suppose I don't have any standing in saying this, as I haven't read the comics, but just based on what I read above, say whaaaat? Goliath and Elisa are broken up???!!!! See Thee Naaaaay!!!!

As Arcadia explained so well, it didn't make any sense and was forced...and then promptly resolved.

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They are gonna have enough drama as it is with their relationship from outsiders, they don't need to add anything among themselves.

Exactly.

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I really wished we got to see Demona's reaction to the relationship. She's always suspected but seeing Goliath makeout with Elisa would be definitive proof and seeing her go nuts and try to plot some crazy revenge would've been glorious!

Yeesssss. There was definitely a missed opportunity there. Strange that we get to see 997 Demona in these books more than 1997 Demona.

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I remember watching 'Vows' with Mom. When Goliath went to the wedding, I was mad and Mom said, "Goliath is going to be in the doghouse with Elisa for a while." LOL!  

Ha! I love that your mom watched the show with you. She sounds cool.

Edited by DisneyBoy.
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Clicked @DisneyBoy and had to also download a stupid app in order to read them. Only got as far as the first one? Something about the view from up there? Anyhoo, first of all, the hair color for Matt is all WRONG! He's a Redhead, not a blonde! And he's supposed to already KNOW about the Gargoyles! Or is that a prequel??? And Demona looks FUGLY as all get out. 

The animation in the 'toon was so much better than these comics! What the hell happened?

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Apparently the artist didn't have an inker to work with. Frankly I just think the artist was too green to handle a property like this. These are complicated designs. If you keep reading you'll see Karine Charlebois work and that's much better and then in the second volume you'll see the work of the cover artist Greg Guler who is really terrific. Hedgecock does get better as the issues progress but it is pretty wonky throughout.

I glimpsed an interview where either Greg Weisman or someone at Slave Labor Graphics admitted that the company just didn't have the resources it needed to properly do the book. The Bad Guys comics were even in black-and-white to save on costs. It's a shame.

Matt does know about the Gargoyles and the Illuminati. I think in the first issues he's just playing dumb because he wants to keep a low profile.

 

I'm surprised you had to download something just to read them because I I think I was able to view them very easily. But I'm far from tech savvy so maybe I just got lucky this time :)

Edited by DisneyBoy.
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Yeah, I had to download them into my dropbox (had to create an account) and the extension/file was .crbz or something.

Just finished the Building of the Clan, and what a GYP! What was the point of Shari being the Shahrazad to Thailog's "King?" And I hated that he always wins and never loses. And it just...ends. I was hoping he'd die or something.  And then the slapdash reunion of Goliath and Elisa. A big GIANT FU to fans me, because the I love yous while Goliath is bleeding out, was NOT ENOUGH. Or the kissies.

And then just going back in time to see what happened with Constantine, Finella, etc. The only good thing to come out of that was Brooklyn finally finding his mate and getting his own family.

So now I needs to take a break before I read the next volume with the more horrid animation.

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...actually, that's the whole thing. The other folder has the 90s Marvel Gargoyles books, which aren't canon.

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What was the point of Shari being the Shahrazad to Thailog's "King?"

Furthermore, who is Shari anyway??

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On 9/14/2016 at 6:07 PM, catray said:

It annoys me that a) I missed these when they were released and b) they are impossible to get these days. I only read the first collected volume (Clan Builiding Vol 1) and I don't remember a whole lot about it except doesn't Elisa go on a date with Morgan?! I remember finding that very bizarre.

I had a MAJOR WTF over this--mainly because he had NEVER shown any interest in her in the cartoon, and he struck me as someone older, closer to Peter Maza's age, and then the whole uniform/detective imbalance/fraternization issue that could be an issue. Blech. I just skimmed over all that. And BOY was Elisa STOOPID. She was taken over and I will choose to believe that was Pod!Elisa and the real one returned when she saw Goliath bleeding out.  And I see they did some SORASing with Alex. He should be around two, not close to four, based on the timeline. GAH.

On 9/15/2016 at 2:50 PM, catray said:

Well, the animated third season was mostly terrible except for the first two episodes, and I would say the comic hews pretty closely to those two episodes overall (there are some minor changes of course, but I can't remember details because it's been ages since I saw those episodes and I don't think they are currently available anywhere).

I found a site where you can watch them free online! Someone gave me this link so I could watch The Ultimate Spiderman--I wanted to find out why it was so reviled,etc., etc. Just plug in Gargoyles in the search box, and voila!

http://kisscartoon.me/

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4 minutes ago, DisneyBoy said:

...actually, that's the whole thing. The other folder has the 90s Marvel Gargoyles books, which aren't canon.

Furthermore, who is Shari anyway??

Now THAT makes sense, since they're all fugly, don't look like they're supposed to, and Matt is a freakin' Blonde and ignorant of the Gargoyles.

She was some homeless person who was welcomed where Talon's labyrinth was? And then turns out both she and Thailog (??!!!) are a part of the Illuminati??! WTF? and that that bespectacled dude, 32, who we saw in the 'toons wanted the Gargoyles destroyed? Or did he just say that to Castaway to misdirect? And again just left that plot hanging to just frustrate this fan/reader.

Either way, Shari was supposed to bring Thailog down or something and I didn't get the point of it or her story telling of the world's history, for it to lead...nowhere.

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And I see they did some SORASing with Alex. He should be around two, not close to four, based on the timeline. GAH.

I think the idea is that Alex is aging rapidly because of the Magic in his blood. That scene where someone points out that he looks older than he should was Greg's way of hinting at that.

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Either way, Shari was supposed to bring Thailog down or something and I didn't get the point of it or her story telling of the world's history, for it to lead...nowhere.

Thanks. I have exactly zero recollection of her. But again, there are about 30 random supporting characters in the series so I can't possibly be expected to remember all of them, can I?

Careful with posting links to things on the boards. Sometimes the mods don't like it.

 

Apparently some of the plot lines involving the Illuminati are followed up on in Greg's Bad Guys comic, so if any of you find that series let me know and send me a private message and I'll do the same.

Edited by DisneyBoy.
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14 minutes ago, DisneyBoy said:

I think the idea is that Alex is aging rapidly because of the Magic in his blood. That scene where someone points out that he looks older than he should was Greg's way of hinting at that.

 

Which is stupid, since it's always been the opposite with magikal characters-that they age more slowly than mere mortals. Otherwise Puck would look like a beyond wrinkled prune.

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I don't think Greg ever laid out specific rules about how magic ages characters. Maybe it gets them to puberty faster and then allows them to stay in peak form for an almost unlimited amount of time?

Or maybe Puck/Owen is purposefully trying to get Alex to come of age quickly for some reason that Fox and Xanatos agree with...

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Sorry. Not buying it. Especially since Alex looked like he was still an infant when at least 6 months had gone by toward the end of season two.

Admittedly, I'm anal-retentive about stuff like this.???

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On ‎9‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 1:50 PM, DisneyBoy said:

Ha! I love that your mom watched the show with you. She sounds cool.

Thanks. It was fun watching the show with Mom. We would talk and speculate afterwards. She's Goliath and Elisa fan too. They reminded her of Vincent and Catherine from Beauty and the Beast. It's one of the reasons I encourage my friends to watch shows with their kids or don't be too quick to judge a show their kids like but they've not seen.  It's good bonding and as adults we're going to remember these moments especially when we have kids on our own.

 

On ‎9‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 5:33 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

I had a MAJOR WTF over this--mainly because he had NEVER shown any interest in her in the cartoon, and he struck me as someone older, closer to Peter Maza's age, and then the whole uniform/detective imbalance/fraternization issue that could be an issue. Blech. I just skimmed over all that. And BOY was Elisa STOOPID. She was taken over and I will choose to believe that was Pod!Elisa and the real one returned when she saw Goliath bleeding out.  And I see they did some SORASing with Alex. He should be around two, not close to four, based on the timeline. GAH.

I found a site where you can watch them free online! Someone gave me this link so I could watch The Ultimate Spiderman--I wanted to find out why it was so reviled,etc., etc. Just plug in Gargoyles in the search box, and voila!

http://kisscartoon.me/

Greg Weisman explained on his Ask Greg blog he thought it was fun to create an Elisa/Morgan/Goliath triangle because Keith David voiced Goliath and Morgan which is silly IMO. As it has been stated Morgan always came off as a fatherly figure towards Elisa. It could've been worse. Elisa could've tried dating Jason after breaking up with Goliath.

 

6 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Sorry. Not buying it. Especially since Alex looked like he was still an infant when at least 6 months had gone by toward the end of season two.

Admittedly, I'm anal-retentive about stuff like this.???

How old was Alex in Hunter's Moon? I assumed Alex was supposed be three or four months even though he appeared older. That's only because I thought Hunter's Moon occurred at the end of September or early October going on when the Canmore's father died in Paris in 1980. During "The Gathering" Brooklyn mention a heatwave the city was going through. I assumed that was June. Don't know if it was fact or not but I've read in forums that Goliath and Elisa were gone for six months in real time. I assumed they left New York in January. Yes, I've thought about this way too much. :P

 

The art was very subpar but good stories would've made up for it. I think the comics would've lasted longer if Greg Weisman focused on the storylines and the cliffhangers that developed at the end of Season Two: Goliath and Elisa dating and their family reactions, the gargoyles adjusting to life back at the castle with Xanatos, the rise of the Quarryman,John Canmore change into John Castaway, Jason and Robyn, Demona's reaction to Goliath and Elisa and her relationship with Angela. the city reaction to gargoyles, Broadway and Angela's budding romance instead of the rushed they're in love even though we didn't see any attraction between them except when Coldstone and Coldfire possessed them. After addressing those issues, readership would've been good enough for Greg to bring in the Illumanati, Stone of Destiny, Thailog, Shari and Brooklyn's family. 

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1 hour ago, Arcadiasw said:

Greg Weisman explained on his Ask Greg blog he thought it was fun to create an Elisa/Morgan/Goliath triangle because Keith David voiced Goliath and Morgan which is silly IMO. As it has been stated Morgan always came off as a fatherly figure towards Elisa. It could've been worse. Elisa could've tried dating Jason after breaking up with Goliath.

That has got to be the lamest, stupidest thing I have ever heard of. Oh, Perish the thought! Do you think he even thought about having her date a man who was going to kill her family, and was responsible for destroying their second home and would have killed her, if he hadn't gone in, drugged her and kidnapped her? Speaking of which, that scene where she pulls of the Hunter's mask and sees it's Jason, and he shoots her with the drug? The scene where she goes unconscious? The animation was FREAKING FANTASTIC. I mean, the animation for the two years was amazing, but just the way Elisa was animated there, her hair looked real, with all the those strands separating and flying in her face, instead of all of of her hair, or chunks of it, that would normally happen. And the detail on her face. Amazing.

1 hour ago, Arcadiasw said:

How old was Alex in Hunter's Moon? I assumed Alex was supposed be three or four months even though he appeared older. That's only because I thought Hunter's Moon occurred at the end of September or early October going on when the Canmore's father died in Paris in 1980. During "The Gathering" Brooklyn mention a heatwave the city was going through. I assumed that was June. Don't know if it was fact or not but I've read in forums that Goliath and Elisa were gone for six months in real time. I assumed they left New York in January. Yes, I've thought about this way too much. :P

Alex had to be a newborn. Remember, "The Gathering" happened right before it, and Fox had just given birth during that two parter. No, wait. Wasn't the episode with the soul exchange happen after "The Gathering?" So, yeah, Alex would have been four or five months, I think, because he just looked bigger while Puck was training him.  But then by the end of the episode, he was drawn as if he were an infant again. But since the comics takes place/starts up a few days after "Hunter Moon" NO WAY is he closer to three or four years old!

1 hour ago, Arcadiasw said:

The art was very subpar but good stories would've made up for it. I think the comics would've lasted longer if Greg Weisman focused on the storylines and the cliffhangers that developed at the end of Season Two: Goliath and Elisa dating and their family reactions, the gargoyles adjusting to life back at the castle with Xanatos, the rise of the Quarryman,John Canmore change into John Castaway, Jason and Robyn, Demona's reaction to Goliath and Elisa and her relationship with Angela. the city reaction to gargoyles, Broadway and Angela's budding romance instead of the rushed they're in love even though we didn't see any attraction between them except when Coldstone and Coldfire possessed them. After addressing those issues, readership would've been good enough for Greg to bring in the Illumanati, Stone of Destiny, Thailog, Shari and Brooklyn's family. 

Like I've said before, nothing will make me believe that Castaway was John. You would think John thought he'd killed Jason, when Jason was still alive and well. Which is something he'd know and I'm sure his sister would have told him. So, that's all on Weisman, since he freakin' WROTE Journey, not only in the comics but the cartoon!

It's clear I'm thinking too much about this show, heh. But I just love Goliath and Elisa so, so much, and hate how they were short-changed in the comics.

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20 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

That has got to be the lamest, stupidest thing I have ever heard of. Oh, Perish the thought! Do you think he even thought about having her date a man who was going to kill her family, and was responsible for destroying their second home and would have killed her, if he hadn't gone in, drugged her and kidnapped her? Speaking of which, that scene where she pulls of the Hunter's mask and sees it's Jason, and he shoots her with the drug? The scene where she goes unconscious? The animation was FREAKING FANTASTIC. I mean, the animation for the two years was amazing, but just the way Elisa was animated there, her hair looked real, with all the those strands separating and flying in her face, instead of all of of her hair, or chunks of it, that would normally happen. And the detail on her face. Amazing.

Like I've said before, nothing will make me believe that Castaway was John. You would think John thought he'd killed Jason, when Jason was still alive and well. Which is something he'd know and I'm sure his sister would have told him. So, that's all on Weisman, since he freakin' WROTE Journey, not only in the comics but the cartoon!

It's clear I'm thinking too much about this show, heh. But I just love Goliath and Elisa so, so much, and hate how they were short-changed in the comics.

With Greg Weisman wanting a silly triangle because a voice actor voiced two of the characters in said triangle, I wouldn't be shocked if he had thought about paring Elisa with Jason. If he had went that route, it would've been bad judgment on Greg Weisman but most importantly it reflects badly on Elisa. I get she's lonely and may have second thoughts dating a gargoyle but to even consider dating a guy who did all the things Jason did, it goes against common sense and her cop ethic. Geez! There are millions of guys in Manhattan she can't do better than someone Jason? Elisa wasn't in love with Jason. A little lust maybe but that's it. 

That scene and the final scene where Goliath brushed Elisa's hair from her face is beautifully animated. The Price had great animation, especially in the beginning where it opened with Manhattan at night leading to the gargoyles fight against MacBeth. Gargoyles is still one of the best animated series I've seen.

Speaking of the Quarryman, how come no one suspected John Castaway as John Canmore? Wouldn't that be obvious? He's the only one of the Hunters still out there. With Xanatos on the Gargoyles side, he can use his resources and investigate John Castaway. It would be a matter of time before he finds him out.

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On September 23, 2016 at 5:32 PM, Arcadiasw said:

With Greg Weisman wanting a silly triangle because a voice actor voiced two of the characters in said triangle, I wouldn't be shocked if he had thought about paring Elisa with Jason. If he had went that route, it would've been bad judgment on Greg Weisman but most importantly it reflects badly on Elisa. I get she's lonely and may have second thoughts dating a gargoyle but to even consider dating a guy who did all the things Jason did, it goes against common sense and her cop ethic. Geez! There are millions of guys in Manhattan she can't do better than someone Jason? Elisa wasn't in love with Jason. A little lust maybe but that's it. 

That scene and the final scene where Goliath brushed Elisa's hair from her face is beautifully animated. The Price had great animation, especially in the beginning where it opened with Manhattan at night leading to the gargoyles fight against MacBeth. Gargoyles is still one of the best animated series I've seen.

Speaking of the Quarryman, how come no one suspected John Castaway as John Canmore? Wouldn't that be obvious? He's the only one of the Hunters still out there. With Xanatos on the Gargoyles side, he can use his resources and investigate John Castaway. It would be a matter of time before he finds him out.

1. I would have hated Weisman for LIFE and continued to bash him at every turn if he'd done that. Considering that in the series finale, Elisa TOLD Jason that someone would "ALWAYS COME FIRST." And we knew she was talking about Goliath.

2. YES! and YES!

3. Because he looked NOTHING like John Canmore? Looked 10 years older, different face, and even in this universe, unless he was Puck, it was only a few days after Hunter's Moon, and no way would plastic surgery be able to be done. Plus, he was at least four inches TALLER than John.

Edited by GHScorpiosRule.
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If the series had continued in syndication, I don’t think Greg Weisman would’ve gotten away with a Jason/Elisa/Goliath triangle take two. Gargoyles is Greg Weisman baby but Frank Paur had a hand in the series, too, and had differences with Greg over things in the series like the World Tour. I think Frank would’ve argued against another triangle.

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There's precedent in legend for magical children ageing at an unnatural rate -- Merlin, for example.

I think Goliath and Elisa made a lot of progress in the comics -- it took them 65 episodes just to kiss.  It's not a surprise Elisa would have second thoughts.  She makes a mistake out of fear, realises she's made a mistake and sorts it out quickly.  It's a shame we didn't get more than the 12 issues so we could see more sides to their relationship but remember that the whole of #3-5 is the equivalent of one episode and a subplot within an episode at that.

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