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Relationship Thread: Dysfunction Junction

I was thinking we could use a "series as a whole" thread about the various relationships. I know this will likely be dominated by the (Bermuda) Triangle of Doom. But i was thinking more in terms of the way relationships generally are and/or were portrayed on the show that don't really belong with in a specific character's thread or even only apply to a specific pairing or friendship or even familial relationship (to the extent that anyone on this show has any family left).  

However, do what ye must. 

For me the most of best relationships on the show have been sibling and platonic ones.  It's one of the reasons I'm said about Elena's turn to toward absolute self absorption.  She has barely acknowledged Jeremy since he returned from the dead.

And I also very much seeing Damon interact with adults; he's so much more palatable when interacting with people like Liz.  Speaking of Liz, where the hell is she and has Caroline (who is in Mystic Falls more than where ever the hell school is anyway) even seen her recently?

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One thing that's always saddened me about this show is how little time is/was spent on the girls' BFF friendships. They've had cute scenes and umpteen scenes where they professed to love each other, blah blah, but never once have I truly bought that their friendship was a defining factor in their lives the way their love lives are. I know we shouldn't compare, but I just always go back to the Scoobies and how much more time was spent showing their bond than their individual bonds with their love interests. If she had to, I always saw Buffy choosing Willow's life over Angel's or Spike's. I would never buy in a thousand million seasons that Elena would pick Bonnie or Caroline over a Salvatore. I wouldn't even see it being close. And that kinda sucks. I'm not one of those people who says friendship is more important than the relationship you have with your significant other, but at the same time if you've got a lifelong friend, there should be something that ties you to them more than just wanting a sounding board for your love life's ups and downs. 

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Well, that's more about Elena than the BFFs. Bonnie literally fell into a grave to help Elena, and Caroline was there for Bonnie when her mother died. I think that it's been shown that Elena's priority list goes

1. Salvatores
2. Jeremy
3. Bonnie/Caroline

whereas something like Bonnie's goes

1. Elena/Caroline
2. Jeremy
3. Salvatores
4. Population at large

This is of course in stark contrast with someone like Tyler, who tends to go

1. Population at large
2. Pack/friends

Seriously, that dude has had some serious character development, and it shows in the ways he relates to the rest of these knuckleheads. Bringing this back to relationships, just look at the way he dealt with Caroline's very personal betrayal (which I find to be bordering on character assassination, but whatever, vampires).

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Bonnie cares about people in general I feel she has a Tyler style to her also. I do think she puts her pack/friend ahead of others, but she is one of the few to EVER get mad enough at Elena to cut her off at least for a while.

I like Bonnie's relationship with them all so much better b/c she doesn't judge as Caroline does and she understands that they are all growing and changing and allows for that even if she doesn't agree.  I think she knows Elena would choose Damon or Stefan's life over hers, but I think in the end Bonnie would choose Jeremy's life over Elena's too, I mean she DID chose Jermey's life over her own. While the show said she did it for Elena I saw her do it more for herself.

And I realize that Elena is self absorbed but she was very upset when she learned Bonnie was dead, and Damon made it his mission to bring her back b/c she means so much to Elena.

I personally think the way their(Bonnie/Caroline/Elena's) friendship is devolving is very real world. This is what happens to great high school friends when you go to college. You lose some of that closeness and move more towards making the important man in your life more central. You still have love and closeness but it is never what it once was.

I do think Elena's relationship with Jeremy has suffered from her Salvatoritis, but I also see her and Jeremy as young adults trying to find their own way so they have to grow apart a little at some point, and while she has slightly been in that role Elena is NOT Jeremy's mother so she should bow out of his life a little bit as he comes into his own.

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I guess I sometimes see Elena's concern about her friends as more guilt than love. When Bonnie 'died', I just felt it was more about Elena being sad Bonnie did it for her, rather than the fact she was dead. Like she owed her something, as opposed to actually missing her. Compared to how Willow reacted when she thought Buffy's resurrection spell didn't work - inconsolable at the thought of Buffy really being gone forever - it just falls miles short of what I would expect to see. 

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Elena's reaction to Bonnie's faked death in Season 2's Decade Dance episode (and Bonnie's response to Damon when he proposed the plan) gave their friendship weight and real feeling. I just think that for the past two seasons, the show has been relying on its history to fill in the blanks of the friendships, but not spending any time on them anymore. Also, I think the Damon/Elena relationship has hurt the girls' friendships, which is appropriate because Bonnie and Caroline have every right to not be in support of that, but it's still a bummer to lose that piece of the show.

As far as siblings, no relationship on this show has been so trashed as Damon and Stefan. Starting with Damon referring to Stefan only as Elena's ex and continuing to now, where Stefan's only interactions with Damon are to follow him around trying to clean up his messes or push Elena to get back together with him.... Clearly the show doesn't care about them as brothers anymore. Which is sad, because for the first few seasons, I would have said that they would have died for each other. And in terms of "endgame," the only one I cared about was that the show ended with the brothers on good terms.

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I know we shouldn't compare, but I just always go back to the Scoobies and how much more time was spent showing their bond than their individual bonds with their love interests.

Julie Plec seems to think that this show is the second coming of Buffy, so I think comparisons are fair game, including the love lives of the characters being more important than the ones between friends and family. 

If she had to, I always saw Buffy choosing Willow's life over Angel's or Spike's.

Buffy chose Willow's life over stopping the Mayor in season 3, gave her life to save the world and her sister in season 5, and also chose saving the world over Angel in season 2, so I agree completely.  And this is the same girl who was so despondent about doing the latter that she ran away from home. 

 

This show has successfully established that everyone not named Tyler will fall all over themselves to save Elena and the Salvatores (to make her happy) first and foremost, but I doubt they'd also fall all over themselves to save the world too.  Buffy found a way to save the world so many times the word Apocalypse needed to be made plural and she managed to do it while keeping her loved ones safe as well.  Tyler is the only character I can believe would try to save his loved ones and the world if it came to it, while everyone else would just save the loved ones and then wonder why the world is ending.

 

I don't necessarily mind this selfishness in the characters, but I wish there was some indication that they knew that there was a world outside of Mystic Falls.  If characters are going to be so self involved that the viewer cannot guarantee they even noticed the people they pass on the sidewalk, then that needs acknowledgement and consequences.  There should have been major fallout from Kol's murder yet no one has come seeking revenge on the baby vampire and her human brother who did the deed.  That would have made for a far more interesting story for the second half of the fifth season instead of Damon the Whitmore Killer and Enzo the Never Before Named BFF.

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 I also don't expect characters to be heroic if it's not in their job description so to speak but I would like to see repercussions from outside sources that don't end up being tied up to the main characters' backstory. It's getting ridiculous now. Serious-fucking-ly? Every supernatural loophole has to include Elena being sacrified or blood harvested? It's too much repetition. I want to see more Mystic Falls versus the world kinda thing. I mean with all the weird shit that happened in that town shouldn't there be more than just one rogue Hunter coming to eradicate vampires? Or a coven of witches that want to "restore balance"? Thta would help have more cohesion within the group i think. I liked the initial dynamics up until season 2/3. I find people that are only about their romantic relationships boring. I am not friends with girls that are all about their boyfriend, I think it's sad. I get that they are growing up but the usual reasons why the HS friendships don't hold have to do with geographical separation or their lives becoming completely different. Which is not the case here. I also understand someone being busy building a relationship with who they see a future with in a regular case but they are vampires that can be in love, living for 1000yrs if they are smart enough. It seems too bad is all I am saying. If you show someone being more romance-centric than have that backed up by establishing a healthy relationship that makes them happy and content on a reliable basis.

Obviously where the finale ended makes it unlikely to see the group together for a long while. I want to see Elena bonding with Jeremy and Caroline though. I used to love the character and now I just. don't. care. She was a bit more fun when escaping the traveling morons because she showed more personality in those few minutes than any other time during the second half of the season. I want to like her and empathise with her again. This situation is just not acceptable considering she is the lead female.

I am not touching much on the Salvatore brothers because I get tired thinking about them. The writers need to fix that. Pronto.

Edited by fantique.
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I think when people tag Stefan's dominant characteristic is his controlling nature over Damon's is because how judgy he is about Damon.  He doesn't really pull the judgmental-ness with any other character but he seems to always be disappointed in Damon for something.  And he consistently made decisions for Elena concerning her life, albeit for her safety but he still did it.  So maybe controlling is the wrong word, judgmental (at least where Damon is concerned) is probably a better interpretation.  Damon OTOH, doesn't judge anyone.  He is controlling as well (which is kind of a moot point considering ALL vampires are controlling because let's be honest, if you could control someone by staring intently into their eyes and telling them what they were going to do, you'd do it too.  LOL) but he doesn't really judge someone's decision once they've made it.  It is what it is and he just deals with the fallout from it afterwards.  Whereas Stefan will sit there and ask 20 questions about the decision or mull it over while staring longingly into a fire or out a window.  

 

But after some thought, yes, both brothers are equally controlling.  Especially when it comes to Elena.

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Damon OTOH, doesn't judge anyone. 

 

I don't think being judgmental is automatically a bad thing. Being judgmental about someone's personal choices is one thing. Being judgmental about someone doing things that hurt other people, or that you think will hurt them in the long run, is a totally different thing, and I don't see why it's considered bad.

 

Considering the kinds of things Damon has done, I've got no problem with other characters judging his actions as bad, wrong, etc. 

 

As for Damon not being judgmental, a lot of that is because he just doesn't care. If someone tells him they're going to rob a bank, it's fine by him. Because he doesn't care that they might end up in jail (which wouldn't be a lot of fun), or that some trigger-happy guard might shoot them to death.

 

If someone wants to go on a three week drug bender, Damon would tell them to go for it. Because he doesn't care about what that could do to their health, life, mind, or relationships. He doesn't care that they could end up ODing at some point. At least they'll go out with a bang.

 

Basically, I don't see Damon not being judgmental as some big positive trait of his. Especially since, when he does care about someone, that non-judgmental, live-and-let-live thing flies right out the window.

Edited by Bitterswete.
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It's bad because who the hell are you to be telling someone what is good/bad for them?  Considering Stefan hardly has a clean track record for making great decisions, it's highly hypocritical to look at someone else and tell them what's wrong with their's.  If he's asked his opinion, then fine....judge away.  

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It's bad because who the hell are you to be telling someone what is good/bad for them?

Yeah, when did Stefan tell Damon anything except could you maybe not kill a bunch of people because a) they don't deserve it and b) it only draws attention to us and may get us killed? And when your behaviour affects other people, those people have the right to speak up about it. My personal freedom is fine and all except when it comes at the expense of others.

 

I'm not even getting when Stefan was oh so judgemental of Damon. Because his usual reaction to Damon's shenanigans is sighing and looking sad/exasperated/resigned. Which is pretty damn mild considering the kind of stuff Damon gets up to.

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It just goes to show again how so much of this is subjective, because while some say Stefan has been so judgmental of Damon, one of the things that I have been most critical of Stefan for, much as I love the character, is that I think he has been and continues to be one of the biggest enablers of Damon's behavior. As early as season one, even before Elena started making all her googly eyes at Damon and still pretended like she gave a shit about the crappy stuff he did, Stefan was the one constantly saying that despite everything Damon's done, all the horrible actions, there was still a good person underneath.

 

Even this season, with Damon's attack on Jeremy. Yes right after he and Kathlena rescue Jeremy, he tells Damon not to bother coming back (which I didn't see that as being judgmental and more his being pissed off that Damon willingly put Jeremy's life in danger and was willing to hurt him just because Elena broke up with him) but switch to one episode later and Damon's missing a few days and the first words out of Stefan's mouth is, "I was probably too harsh when I told him not to come back," And not surprisingly Caroline is the one to say, "yeah no, you're not doing this and you're not going to feel guilty for being rightfully pissed off at Damon for his shitty actions ..." So this is why I don't really buy the "Stefan is always so judgy of Damon. Frankly I wish he was more judgmental so maybe he'd quit making multiple excuses for Damon's shitty actions and enabling his shitty behavior.

Edited by truthaboutluv.
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Stefan is judgmental of Damon, but he has every right to be. Considering that the guy goes off like powder keg with little to no provocation (I'm honestly surprised Damon didn't lose it when he found out about Enzo) and is a massive dick to everybody at just about all times regardless Stefan actually isn't being anywhere near judgmental enough. Stefan isn't being hypocritical by doing so either, since even when Stefan goes into Ripper mode he isn't anywhere near as bad as Damon is on a regular basis, and Stefan is more of a junkie that can't really control himself than somebody who actually wants to do what he's doing like Damon is. That, and at least Stefan tries to improve while Damon really doesn't give a crap. If it weren't for Elena Damon would probably almost never do anything good to anyone ever.

Edited by immortalfrieza.
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The whole issue with Stefan being so judgemental in general is Stefan is using HIS ruler of how things should be. Stefan doesn't just judge Damon, he judges Caroline, Elena, Enzo really just about any VAMPIRE except maybe Lexi and finds them lacking IF they don't try to act just like him.

Stefan if anything is a vampire anomaly and for him to expect other vampires to act like him just chaps me to no end. One of the main reasons Elena turned to Damon was b/c she couldn't take Stefans's judgieness about her vampire nature.

The other issue I have is it has been stated multiple times STEFAN has done worse than any of the other vampires and killed more people, as his small ripper binge with Klaus gave a sample of, but since that all happened off screen somehow Damon's few people he's killed on screen make him worse?

Damon is comfortable in his vampire skin. Stefan can't STAND that. Damon is selfish and he doesn't love someone LESS if they do something bad as a vampire b/c THEY ARE vampires.

It is one thing to tell someone you don't like their actions and don't want to be around them when they are like that(as Elena has told Damon in the past), it is quite another to NOT be able to love someone as much IF they are like that as Stefan uses over and over, see specifically Elena being a vampire.

Judging someone and trying to make them fit YOUR mold is controlling. You can't love them as much if they don't meet your expectations. Letting someone live their life good and bad and loving them anyway is unconditional love. Doesn't mean you can't tell them when their actions are reckless or bad, but even if they chose to do those actions you don't think less of them you still love them. That to me is the difference in how Elena feels about Damon and how Stefan feels about Damon and just about everyone else. Stefan showed it also when he told Caroline why he didn't tell her about killing Enzo. He was afraid she would think less of him. She wouldn't have, but he projected how HE would feel onto her.

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I have never seen Stefan judge Elena or (especially) Caroline.

I don't buy into the "rules are different for vampires" thing. Vampires aren't soulless like on Buffy. I see them as super humans basically. 

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I completely disagree with that assessment of Stefan's character. Mostly because the show doesn't actually seem to think the characters do wrong all that much so the characters don't think so either. Damon hasn't shown to be concerned about Stefan's reaction this season, it was Elena he was worried about. Because he knew Stefan would always forgive him/not even care, because as truthaboutluv said, he's his biggest enabler (even worse than Elena).

 

When has Stefan ever said he couldn't love people for not being like him? Or treated them badly because they failed to be? He can't handle his vampirism well, which is why he chooses to drink animals. Because it makes him safe to be around. How is that a bad thing? Caroline and Elena both drink from blood bags, has Stefan ever said he's a better person than them for drinking animals? He showed them his way, because it's a way (as evidenced by the fact that he's alive and well, so no, vampires do not have to kill/hurt people to survive. They do it because they can/want to), not the only way. He was perfectly fine with them choosing the other way. He's even fine with Damon drinking from people whenever he feels like it unless he kills them. So how's that being judgemental? And what about Damon sneering and making fun of Stefan's squirrel killing ways quite frequently? He also said in S1 that he wanted Stefan to be back on human blood, to be like him, like he should be. Isn't that exactly what you said Stefan did (except I've never seen that)?

 

I mean, I agree that Stefan's an anomaly as far as vampires go, but where does he expect others to be like him? 

 

 

The other issue I have is it has been stated multiple times STEFAN has done worse than any of the other vampires and killed more people, as his small ripper binge with Klaus gave a sample of, but since that all happened off screen somehow Damon's few people he's killed on screen make him worse?

Where did they say Stefan killed MORE people than anyone? He had his phase of binge killing, Damon had his, only later. The difference is that Stefan views this as wrong now and makes an effort not to be like that. The only time he "relapsed" was to save Damon's life, whose gratitude mainly consisted of him hitting on Elena any chance he got. Damon doesn't think there's anything wrong with what he's done, or if he does know he doesn't care. No humanity switch, no friendship/love, no Elena could make him stop killing. It's in continuity with his human self, who also didn't think killing people was wrong. 

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Specifically when Damon and Stefan talked about getting the cure for Elena, Damon made it clear whether she was a vampire or not he'd love her either way and Stefan said she is not supposed to be this person, which then lead to the scene where Elena got pissed Stefan forced Jeremy to kill vampires b/c he was so fixated on getting the cure for her. She said you don't have to love me this way. Both scenes were getting at the fact b/c she was different as a vampire Stefan couldn't love her as much. B/c he didn't like the choices she was making it deminished his love for her.

 

Klaus talked about how Stefan has been on and off the wagon for years. Lexi talked about whole TOWNS of people he killed. Elena saw his guilt wall of names in Chicago. All that together has made it pretty clear Stefan has killed more people than any of the MF gang including Damon. Now I'm sure due to age Klaus and probably Rebekah and Elijah have killed more than him, but I'm unsure even of that. Just when they first turned alone Stefan went wild killing the whole town and at that time Damon as a new vampire was horrified and had to leave him b/c of it. Where even historically though Damon would kill it was usually only single people I think the most was the 12 he killed in NOLA to try and break Charlottes sire bond. Typically Damon is more likely to feed and erase than kill.

Edited by Cattitude.
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Both scenes were getting at the fact b/c she was different as a vampire Stefan couldn't love her as much. B/c he didn't like the choices she was making it deminished his love for her.

 

I don't think it was so much that Elena was a vampire as the way she was behaving as a vampire. And I got no problem with that. I think the way people act can affect the way we feel about them. Which is totally normal. Caring about someone doesn't mean you should be okay with whatever they do or however they behave.

 

Also, I always thought Stefan was so set on curing Elena because she once told him, very specifically and with much emotion, that she did not want to be a vampire. And he thought that, if she was herself, wanting him to do whatever he could to cure her would be exactly what she wanted.

 

Where even historically though Damon would kill it was usually only single people I think the most was the 12 he killed in NOLA to try and break Charlottes sire bond.

 

We have no idea what Damon's body count is (although the "only 12 people" thing boggles my mind). But, to be honest, it makes no difference to me what characters have done in the past aside from giving them interesting backstories that inform who they are as characters. What matters is what they do now.

 

Yes, Stefan has blood on his hands. But, now, he is a character who puts a lot of time and energy into doing as little harm to people as possible.

 

Yes, Damon, once showed signs of being decent. But, now, he is a character who will kill innocents on a whim and without remorse.

 

I have to add that one of my favorite characters ever probably had a higher body count than all of the TVD characters combined before he had a change of heart. And his bloody past often made him exactly the right person to give other characters advice. Because he'd been there, done that, and knew the consequences.

Edited by Bitterswete.
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I don't think it was so much that Elena was a vampire as the way she was behaving as a vampire. And I got no problem with that. I think the way people act can affect the way we feel about them. Which is totally normal. Caring about someone doesn't mean you should be okay with whatever they do or however they behave.

This so much.

 

So what exactly do Stefan and Damon see in Elena?  Do they look at Elena as a chance for their relationship with Katherine to go right?  Because I can't understand their fixation with her considering there are plenty of women both human and supernatural who are nicer, just as pretty, and simply know more about the world and its culture (Rebekah).

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Honestly, I just chalk up the Elena fascination to her being a classic Mary Sue. And just like every other Mary Sue I don't get the fascination but it is pretty much a rule that everyone must fall in love with her. I didn't see the fascination with Joey Potter either and Pacey and Dawson were both madly in love with her, same with Bella Swan who was a whiny, annoying drip. I can't stand Elena but have accepted that as rules of Mary Sue's dictate, Stefan and Damon will never not be in love with her and think her some super special snowflake.

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So what exactly do Stefan and Damon see in Elena?  Do they look at Elena as a chance for their relationship with Katherine to go right?

I think this is absolutely true for them both.  Stefan prefers the parts of her that remind him of the Katherine who was pretending to be a sweet human girl back in the Civil War while Damon prefers the parts of her that remind him of the Katherine who encouraged him to embrace his inner monster and convinced him to look the other way while she abused his brother as they were going to spend eternity together.  If Elena didn't have Katherine's face, Stefan wouldn't have met her as Damon would have undoubtedly killed her the night of that party, so I think they both saw Elena as their chance to fix what was wrong with the relationships with Katherine.  

 

And I think Elena not only is aware of this but uses it to her advantage.  If she didn't play her cards right and keep reminding the Salvatores that she's an "improvement" on Katherine, she'd be dead right now and not in a vampire way.  She had survivor's guilt following the deaths of her parents but I've never bought the notion that she was suicidal in the last year of her human life.  If she were truly determined to die, then she wouldn't have let anyone in on it when she contacted Klaus back in season 2. I do think she didn't want to be a vampire, as she knew that would draw more attention to her similarities to Katherine, and that played into her decision to dump Stefan for Damon (sire bond notwithstanding).  Damon's the one who goes on murder sprees when he gets snippy while Stefan just gets more manipulative, so it's more important for Elena's well being to keep Damon in line.  After this season, when she watched Damon murder the former love of his life and all-around obsession Katherine, whose face she shares, she's learned how carefully she needs to maneuver when it comes to Damon.  The last thing Elena needs is for Damon to stop obsessing over her the way he did Katherine, because it will be her on the receiving end of his psychosis if/when that happens.

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Wow Scary nikki, I honestly wish the writers were smart enough to have actually thought that storyline up. That would be a shocking twist, Elena realising she was free of Damon as he is on TOS. S6 is all about her moving on from the Salvatores and trying to enjoy her life rather than weeping, wailing and demanding everyone help her get him back. I know it's not happening though.

I have never understood any of these vampires falling for these teenage misfits. 1000 year old Rebekkah pining over Matt who treated her like crap. Seriously? Katherine chasing after a 17 year old Stefan who apparently was great in bed? No way. Surely the urbane, Hermitage exhibitor Klaus wouldn't be interested in Caroline even if she is a vampire? Maybe when you become a vampire, part of your psyche is frozen at the age you were when you were turned. I don't know.

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It's good to see so many TWOP posters here! 

 

 

I think this is absolutely true for them both.  Stefan prefers the parts of her that remind him of the Katherine who was pretending to be a sweet human girl back in the Civil War while Damon prefers the parts of her that remind him of the Katherine who encouraged him to embrace his inner monster and convinced him to look the other way while she abused his brother as they were going to spend eternity together.  If Elena didn't have Katherine's face, Stefan wouldn't have met her as Damon would have undoubtedly killed her the night of that party, so I think they both saw Elena as their chance to fix what was wrong with the relationships with Katherine.

 

They've discussed this in show, but I wish the writers would acknowledge how creepy this relationship can be.  To paraphrase Silas, she's the creepy carbon copy of Katherine and it seems implausible that Katherine doesn't weigh heavily on her relationships and interactions with the Salvatores.  When you think about it, Elena got dealt a phenomenally shitty hand.  Even if the Salvatores never found Elena, Isobel and Katherine knew where she was.  She was doomed from the beginning.  It's best that she met Stefan and Damon.  For all their flaws, they're the main reason she wasn't killed by Klaus.

 

 

They sure seem that way IMO. None of them exhibit much in the way of growth actually. They may change their ways and revise their approach to murdering people, but their personalities stay exactly the same, which is ridiculous really. I know I change every year, and I sure as hell hope that when I'm old I won't still be stuck in my teenage personality or my early twenties personality. Life experience should count for something.

 

The Originals does a better job of showing that Elijah, Klaus, and Rebekah have seen a lot and are very old.  Because of the nature of the show (GoT/The Borgias in New Orleans) they're able to expand on their history and deepen their characterization.  I feel like having a conversation with any of the Original siblings on any topic would be fascinating.  Even in TVD, I got the feeling that the Originals were old.  Klaus's disregard for the rules and immaturity is probably his take on immortality.  He's the strongest being in the world and virtually invincible so if he wants something, no one can stop him.

 

The problem is that for obvious reasons, we have no idea what psychologically happens to someone when they live for 1000+ years but they have the body of a young immortal.  Maybe they grow detached from humanity or maybe you always stay engaged and interested in things.  I'm a fan of the True Blood route where the older the vampire is, the more alien they become.  Mikael seems to have taken this approach.  He seems to be the most inhuman compared to all the other supes we've met, including Silas.

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I feel like once Kevin Williamson left the writers just completely abandoned that and now it's basically all immortals are super cool, we are all so much better now that we're vampires.

 

 

It's interesting because the same thing happened with Dawson's Creek. After he left it just all went to shit and you can definitely see how things went to shit with this show once he left. It seemed in the earlier season while the "triangle" always existed, as others noted, Elena was more her own person, had more agency and as much as she loved Stefan, he was not her entire world. Early season Elena I could have possibly bought doing what Buffy did where she sacrificed Angel to save the world. This Elena would say "fuck the world" if it meant having to sacrifice her precious sociopath, i.e. Damon.

 

On top of that the show was more willing to explore other relationships/characters then, particularly the Stefan/Damon relationship. Stefan also had his own demons that had nothing to do with Elena, the other characters had their relationships, etc. The problem is once Kevin left the show in the hands of Plec and Dries it became all about their fan-girly obsession with Damon and the "complex bad boy". Stefan basically got shit on for two seasons, Elena became a mindless, whiny (okay whinier) drip whose only motivation in life seems to be to hop on Damon and screw him across all surfaces and everyone just became pointless fodder, existing only to serve around those two storylines which pretty much consist of their shit-fest relationship.

 

And now they bring back Alaric who is pretty much Damon fanboy #1 and add Enzo, fanboy #2 as a regular which all but confirms that this show will continue to revolve around Damon and his "complexity" and his and Elena's shitty relationship. Elena has basically became merely a prop to Damon.

Edited by truthaboutluv.
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It's one thing to kill your opponent in the heat of battle and something else entirely to be complicit in the premeditated murder of an innocent. Most people upon discovering that their partner was a remorseless killer would have some form of "I'm out". Almost everyone else on the series, including Klaus, have only become okay with killing after they became supes. Damon was already cool with killing people who weren't doing him any harm.

Imo, that hints at something dark about Damon from the get go. Damon was a grown man when he met Katherine. He can't claim that it's all due to Katherine's influence. Manipulation has limits.

I get why the Salvatores are borderline obsessed with Katherine.

Well Elena continued a relationship with Stefan after finding out about his vampirism, and after she saw first hand what he was capable of (Amber), so she definately must have a dark side too by this logic. Elena couldn't care less about the people Stefan had hurt, she only cared about Stefan. Did Elena have the darkness in her from the get go?

There is light and shade in ALL these characters, thats what make it fascinating.

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Well Elena continued a relationship with Stefan after finding out about his vampirism, and after she saw first hand what he was capable of (Amber), so she definately must have a dark side too by this logic. Elena couldn't care less about the people Stefan had hurt, she only cared about Stefan. Did Elena have the darkness in her from the get go?

 

 

Not exactly true. When Elena fell for Stefan, she first didn't know he was a vampire for awhile. Then when she did find out, he was on his bunny diet so she was not exposed to "violent, bloody, murderous" Stefan. I disagree that she did not care about what happened with Amber - she looked very disturbed and shocked when she saw Stefan in all his "falling off the wagon" glory, which is why they got Damon to calm him down and Bonnie to restrain him. And then she was the one who distracted him long enough to stab him so Damon could lock him in the cellar until he could get back under control. 

 

Damon fell for Katherine not realizing she was a vampire but then when he knew, he also found out at the same time she was interested in Stefan as well and was mind controlling him to feed on his blood and Damon was fine with that. But with regards to the scenario specifically stated above, the issue was not just that Damon loved Katherine, but then he asked her and willingly wanted her to turn him into a vampire as well (how Bella Swan of him), something Elena never wanted. And then he willingly helped her catch human prey and got turned on enough after she violently fed on and slaughtered a man that he was making out with her with this person's blood in her mouth. Again, something Elena never did. 

 

Elena is definitely an apologist for whatever guy she's with, without question - the same way she rationalizes and blames everyone else for Damon's shitty actions, she did the same with Stefan's past by simply telling herself it was in his past, when he was not in his right mind and that was not the person he was anymore. However, I never saw Elena get all turned on and hot and bothered at Stefan violently feeding on and attacking someone like Damon did and that's the point being made. That clearly there was always something disturbing and callous in Damon with regard to human life if even before he was a vampire he could so casually be fine with watching Katherine brutally murder someone and rather than be freaked out or disgusted, he looked turned on and seemed to see it as some romantic moment between them.

Edited by truthaboutluv.
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Well Elena continued a relationship with Stefan after finding out about his vampirism, and after she saw first hand what he was capable of (Amber), so she definately must have a dark side too by this logic.

 

 

I definitely think so, it's what was always lurking beneath her "Good Person" facade.

 

I don't really agree. Yes, Elena stayed with Stefan after finding out about him. But that was in spite of him being a vampire. It was a thing she came to terms with, but it was hardly one of the things that attracted her to him. Instead, the feelings she already had for him gave her an incentive to try to accept what he was. And, in fact, she couldn't accept it at first. 

 

As for her sticking by him through the Amber situation, that was a case of him "going through something." It wasn't really him but a problem he was having, and something she was going to help him get through. It wasn't like she was totally fine with him going out and attacking more people or something. Because of her feelings for him, she was willing to stand by him, and help him get back to his "normal self," the one who didn't go around attacking people. Which involved locking him up until he got himself under control.

 

For Damon, I think Katherine being a vampire was part of the allure, part of the turn on. And he was obviously fine with her attacking innocent people. So a totally different situation.

Edited by Bitterswete.
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The question is, if we are setting up equal scenarios: Did Elena ever help Damon/Stefan set a trap in the middle of the road that some poor, unsuspecting person fell for, then get horny and enthralled when she sees (random) Salvatore brother murdering that person?

 

The answer is no. 

 

Also, look at Elena's facial expression in that Season 1 episode when Stefan is out of control and attacking Amber. She's frightened, concerned, and a little horrified seeing him so unhinged. Certainly not turned on.

 

Note: I am referring to human Elena of course. The Elena we see now would probably happily help Damon set a trap for some people driving down the road and eat them together.

 

Exactly.

I remember Damon clearly looking repulsed when Kat killed the human, definately not turned on. Damon fell in love with Kat when he thought she was a human, he stayed in love with her even when he knew she was a vamp. Kat being a vamp wasn't the "allure"., he loved her and didn't care what she was. Just like Elena with Stefan.

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Mod Note: A number of posts that were off topic have been moved to more appropriate threads.

Reminder: This thread is for discussion of relationships only. If you want to talk about character development or speculate about vampire behaviour vs human behaviour etc, please do so in an appropriate thread. If an appropriate thread doesn't already exist, you are welcome to create one.

Thank you

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Klaroline never made much sense to me. I never understood Klaus' fascination with Caroline. He's got the body of a grown man and is 1000+ years old and Caroline in TVD's universe probably looks like a 17 year old. Her concerns are primarily high school based so I don't get at all what Klaus would see. It just seemed to kind of happen. IIRC, the first time they have any interaction is in the high school when he's terrorizing Elena and Stefan and kills Tyler. And then somehow that morphs into a mutual attraction? Then Klaus has Tyler bite Caroline because he knows Tyler can't disobey him due to the sire bond and then later on he bites Caroline because she calls him on his bullshit. And in between these events, he's killed Jenna and Elena, tried to drain Elena of her blood, and slaughtered Tyler's hybrid friends and mom. And then she hooks up with him? That never made much sense to me. People bring up Elena dating Damon after what he did to Caroline, which is fair but he wasn't nearly the scourge Klaus was. And he never attacked Elena herself.

Even with vampire morality, I don't see how Caroline could become attracted to Klaus. I'm not really morally judging her (just a little), but I don't understand how someone would become attracted to someone else who repeatedly attacked them and their friends and showed little to no signs of changing. Any Klaroline fans want to give me their take on Caroline and Klaus' relationship progression? And what Klaus sees in a high school vampire?

Edited by lion10.
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I think that Klaus becoming obsessed with Caro has nothing to do with her age or personality.  Obsession is completely irrational and, if it could be talked around, we'd see a lot less criminal behavior.  As for the "mutual attraction" I think that was strictly fanservice for the 100th episode.  Before the episode, Caro not only was consistently not into Klaus but she celebrated when she thought he'd finally been killed and was horrified when she learned he wasn't.  It was everyone around her who insisted that she secretly had feelings for him and, even then, it was only when they wanted something from Klaus and figured the easiest way to get it was send Caro in to interact with her stalker.  During the episode, Klaus once again was following her around, ignoring that she was trying to get away from him, and manipulated her into having sex with him (by leading her to believe that he'd let Tyler leave the spinoff when Tyler had-from what I understand-had already been let out of his jail cell and just hadn't been seen yet).  After the episode, she regretted giving in to him, even if her body did enjoy it and then right back to not giving him a second thought.  Also, from what I've been told, Klaus has a new blonde to obsess over on the spinoff so his tendency to obsess can shift.

 

What both shows really need to do is admit that Klaus wants to bone Rebekah, can't, and that's the reason he fixates on teenage blondes who are no match for him physically.

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What both shows really need to do is admit that Klaus wants to bone Rebekah, can't, and that's the reason he fixates on teenage blondes who are no match for him physically.

I really thought I was alone in this belief. I always felt like the way they portrayed Klaus and Rebekah, especially in the ancient past, was just a teensy bit Lannister. Furthermore, they both seem pathologically unable to walk away from each other.

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What both shows really need to do is admit that Klaus wants to bone Rebekah, can't, and that's the reason he fixates on teenage blondes who are no match for him physically.

 

Ah, but the minute they admit it instead of dancing around it, everyone loses interest.

 

I don't think Rebekah would want to; her loyalty to Klaus is equaled only by her frustrated forced submission to him. But assuming she did want him romantically, I'd like to play Devil's advocate here: why can't Klaus and Rebekah bone? If they both want to, and they can't produce any inbred offspring with each other, and there is no other female in the world who equals Klaus in age and experience, and the genetic suitability of romantic partners is determined by varying human cultural expectations that vampires are no longer bound by, and essentially no one in existence can stop Klaus from doing exactly what he wants, then what difference does it make? Let them go find a cabin in the woods and Do It to their heart's content, and then maybe Klaus would stop hosting massacres every time a blonde pisses him off.

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Come now Klaus isn't the only one who is attracted to his sibling. It is two sided. Rebekah has bent over backwards to "win" Klaus' love. She has followed him for years and been submissive to his whims b/c she just can't quit him. You know she currenlty is living her dream come true.  She didn't just want a child and a human life she wanted Klaus' child, which she now has. The attraction between the two is pretty obvious.

Edited by Cattitude.
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What both shows really need to do is admit that Klaus wants to bone Rebekah, can't, and that's the reason he fixates on teenage blondes who are no match for him physically.

Since their mother was blonde one could probably say the same about her too. There's a lot of Freudian undertones with the whole family for that matter.

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Definitely saw some incestuous vibes from both Rebekkah and Klaus towards each other. The Stefan/Klaus vibes have also always more than platonic. I reckon 1920s Chicago may have witnessed the odd threesomes!

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Am I the only one who thinks Damon is completely abusive in his relationship. He always goes and attacks Jeremy whenever Elena doesn't do what he wants. Like in the season 2 premiere he literally snaps Jeremy's neck because Elena didn't want to be with him. Also don't forget all those time he raped Caroline. 

 

Also Elena is so self absorbed now. Sometimes I forget Jeremy is her brother because she doesn't seem to give a crap about him. 

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It's definitely a pattern with him. When Elena hurts his feelings when he's already in an unstable mood, he tends to lash out and punish her, by killing Jeremy for the S2 rejection and now by killing Aaron for the fake break up. Like, if you don't want me, then I have no reason not to hurt the people you care about. It's punishment and emotional blackmail.

That's plenty problematic, but you know the writers don't see it that way.

 

The again Elena is so awful at this point, I barely even care. Hell, there have been moments when I thought Damon deserved better than Elena, but now she's rivalling him in terms of single-minded obsessiveness so...I guess they do fit together.

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[in response to the idea from the S6E2 episode thread that Enzo and Damon's relationship is as deep as the writers want us to believe]

I mean, at this point, I guess it's more important to CD and JP to draw this crap out than it is to maintain the integrity and depth of any of the relationships on this show, so if you want to believe Enzo is closer to and has a deeper relationship with Damon than Stefan does, for all I know, you're right. But he shouldn't. That's selling out the most important relationship on this whole crapfest, and it was the one relationship I wanted to be strong when all of this ended, but instead Stefan/Damon's bond has been weakened every single season. They were in a better place at the end of Season 1 when they'd just stopped trying to kill each other than they were at any point in Season 5. They barely interacted, and when they did, they were OOC. So, you know, whatever, Enzo is the bestest BFF ever, sure. I actually don't think that's what JP and CD intend to depict, but it's not an invalid reading of the situation, in my opinion. Damon certainly seemed more concerned about getting Enzo back at the end of S5 than he did about getting Stefan back at the beginning of S5.

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Damon certainly seemed more concerned about getting Enzo back at the end of S5 than he did about getting Stefan back at the beginning of S5.

Hey now, I'm sure it was real difficult for Damon to tell Sheriff Forbes to drag the lake for his brother instead of doing it himself.

 

And that masterful scene Ian had during 5x22 where Damon bulged out his eyes and threatened Bonnie with a fireplace poker for something that was not her fault. I'm assuming the writers thought that would be enough to get people to think he was upset about his dead brother. 

 

The writers (or whoever) keep bringing in all of these pointless characters to get in the way of the "Defan" relationship and it progressively just weakens it. It's nothing now.

Edited by grandemocha.
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Actually, for a long time, I really enjoyed the Defan relationship, and I do want it to be ultimately be stronger than Denzo, but that is not what they are showing to me at the moment. Others may view in differently, of course.

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Don't comment that often on this show. But I will say this, if Bamon has a hint of anything more than friendship I will puke in my mouth. I hope the actors are just teasing/kidding when they say romantic Bamon.... Could have happened earlier, but it didn't. Let's just leave at that. It would be gross now and I like Bonnie waaaayyyy too much. Also I am enjoying their slightly antagonistic banters where they take turn being the childish one. I am finally back to watching this show every week as opposed to every 2 months. Don't ruin it show!

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I take the opposite view, I've been waiting for Bamon since season 1. They're my OTP, between them and from Katherine/Stefan Katherine/Damon I think they have the most palpable chemistry. But I think Bonnie has chemistry with everyone frankly.

Edited by slayer2.
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I'm with you Slayer.  I didn't notice the chemistry until Bonnie helped Damon trap (and kill) Mason.  Not a great start to a relationship, but their chemistry just jumped off the screen at me.  Bonnie gave Damon a look just as they held hands in last season's finale that I don't think could be mistaken for anything but desire - though I don't think it was meant to be love/desire.  The actress probably threw that in.  Anyway, I agree that Bonnie has good chemistry with everyone and it is way past time that she get a bigger part.  My wish list is that after this season, Nina and Paul don't renew their contracts and Ian and Kat do.  Then we'll see.

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I'm wondering how long Bonnie and Damon will be on their own, segregated from the rest of the cast. Seems like an easy way to have IS and ND not have to interact. 

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Bamon being off on their own with their frenemy status is really entertaining. While it can't last forever (it'll get boring and repetitive if it's just the two of them), I don't want them rushing back to Mystic Falls any time soon. If anything a jump through different "hells" trying to find their way back could be fun.

As for Bamon going romantic, I could see it happening only if Nina/Elena doesn't come back for S7. I wouldn't want to see Bamon happen romantically, just to throw it aside for Delena. What I like about Bamon is similar to what I like/love about Steroline, it's light, funny, antagonistic, etc.

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That would be very cool! Bamon jumping through various hells. I wonder if they have tried to leave Mystic Falls as yet, to see if anyone else is out there. Testing the boundaries is the first thing I'd do and if they haven't then that sure says a lot about how they feel about spending time together.

Maybe at the heart of it all Damon just wants to stay there for a awhile with Bonnie and bourbon because he's simply exhausted of it all. I mean we're talking about a guy so proactive that he chased Katherine for 60years. He can't pull his shit together for 4 measly months? He'd basically already given up and was satisfied with making Bonnie pancakes at the 4week mark. Maybe he's taking a timeout like Stefan?

Edited by slayer2.
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I wonder if Damon and Bonnie still consider themselves dead? Like, that they are in some magical air pocket of the Other Side? In which case, I can see ho-hum attitude. I realize coming back to life is a joke on this show but this anchor-gateway-Traveller-spell-thingie should be out so it`d be more like bringing Bonnie back in the first place and that took quite a lot. And I just remembered that the original physical bodies of all these people have rotted/are rotting somewhere. Yikes.

 

Now I do enjoy the Bamon 90s adventure however long it lasts. The characters have a really fun chemistry that probably hasn`t been explored since that dance they shared back when Klaus first came to Mystic Falls.

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