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All Episodes Talk: It Was the Dawn of the Third Age

A place to discuss particular episodes, arcs and moments from the show. Please remember this isn't a complete catch-all topic -- check out the forum for character topics and other places for show-related talk.

Edited by maraleia. Reason: changed description to conform with new guidelines
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I've been semi-binge watching, about a season a month, then my son grabs the DVDs so he can watch, and calls me up to say that he'd forgotten how GOOD it was.  I had missed bits and pieces of it when it originally aired, so that's rather interesting.

 

Just finished "The Corp is mother, the Corp is father"< one of those I had not seen before.  But I did see where it was going....

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I think I've watched the series about 5 maybe 6 times. When it was airing every night on SciFi M-Th I would leave it on when preparing dinner etc. I have yet to see a show, overall, story-wise that still holds up as well as this 2 decades on. 

Just yesterday, the news was talking about the latest payload to go up to the space station and they'll be growing their own food now. I can't help but think of Sinclair's monologue to the news anchor about why we have to go into space. 

With the Boston Marathon tomorrow, I was thinking about how Sheridan had to deal with the guy who was bombing on the station and how they talked about terrorism. Even more relevant in our world now than it was then. 

Just off the top of my head, thinking about how we're worried about the NSA spying on us and collecting all this data: there's the psy-corps. 

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I just did a rewatch not too long ago.  The series stand up well, even technology wise.  

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Why is this show not available on Netflix or another streaming service? I was talking about this with a friend of mine who has never seen the show. She'd really like to watch it, but does most TV watching on her mobile phone while working out etc. and so borrowing my DVDs isn't really helpful.  Is there no interest in the streaming services??? I find it hard to believe since they have so many old genre shows. Are they looking for too much money for the licensing or hoping that DVD sales are more profitable? It just seems like someone should have snapped this series up by now.

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It's absurd that it's not on netflix. JMS said that there won't be new content unless a new audience finds the show and shows that this is a viable property. 

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It is available for $2 an episode through YouTube. I looked for the episodes to watch at work but I don't want to pay $2 an episode for something I own the DVDs

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I didn't even know Youtube sold episodes of ... anything. But yeah not paying $2/episode, and I doubt my friend would want to either.

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Just been rewatching and it's still as good as when i first watched, Gkar speech in the Council Chamber in Season 2 The Long Twilight Struggle still completely wrenchs at my heart , just brilliant.

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A question about the Coming of Shadows, Season 2. When the telepath chicks go to tell the Centauri PM about the Emperor health on B5. He is standing in the Royal Court wiht two Minbaris and a Human. But neither of them have any Ranger gear on, Human in a normal suit and Minbaris in those general looking robes. And it's the only time we see someone in the Royal Court that isn't Centauri. Aside from B5 main characters eg G'Kar, Sheridan, Delenn and Morden. Does anyone know if JMS has been asked about why they where there ?

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Without watching the scene in question, maybe they were diplomats?

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Check the Lurker's Guide. That has pretty comprehensive info. 

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Thank you Joe and Ganesh for responding so quickly. I will check out the Lurker Guide. It just really struck me as odd, especially since Minbari really keep to themselves and there was nothing to indicate a Ranger connection yet this is the ep which we learn about them and Sinclair's role.

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Why is this show not available on Netflix or another streaming service? ... Are they looking for too much money for the licensing or hoping that DVD sales are more profitable? It just seems like someone should have snapped this series up by now.

Hi--just stopped by this forum, don't know if you're still following, but...

From everything I've heard on the Babylon Podcast (excellent podcast, btw, they interviewed just about everybody you could hope to hear from), I get the impression that Warner Bros. is and always has been particularly dog-in-the-manger with their properties. If they can't make buckets full of cash, they won't bother releasing something, but they won't let anyone else play with it at a lesser profit. In case their lawyers are reading: this is simply what I have heard, and an impression that I get.  ;) So they are probably sitting on the streaming rights, holding out for an unreasonable fee, figuring that any fans that really want to watch again will fork over the dvd or download prices, which both kick licensing fees back to the mother ship. In interviews, I've heard at least a couple of people describe the Warner Bros. business model when B5 was in production: they would pit each division against each other, television vs. fim vs. music etc., so instead of developing synergy between divisions to create a stronger product, like leveraging television products to help dvd sales, it was an every-man-for-himself corporate culture. Ugh.

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JMS has also said recently that it's up to the fans to make a stink and push to get it streaming. He can't do much else. We need a new generation of fans to get into the show if there's going to be anything new. 

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I believe him when JMS says he can't do anything more to pressure Warner, but I also don't believe that fan pressure would be any more successful. And fans have been pressuring them for years. Fans begged Warner to re-release the B5 books, and really, an ebook release would cost them pennies, even if they had to pay the authors a new royalty (and that's unlikely).

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I just finished watching Babylon 5 last night and I loved it.  It really was a great show and it made me angry that I didn't follow the show when it was originally on.  I saw the first episode when it was originally on and thought it was dumb.  I never watched a complete episode after that except for bits and pieces but heard often how good of a show it was.  It took me more than 20 years but I'm glad I gave it a second chance.  I was not disappointed.  Epic storytelling and memorable characters.  Particularly ahead of its time on the storytelling front and I wish more shows would have an idea where they are headed.  Sleeping in Light was definitely one of the best series finales I've ever watched.

 

I ended up watching by ordering the DVDs.  The total price for them wasn't bad but it's ridiculous that this show isn't available on at least one of the three major streaming services.

 

It's frustrating that you can't find any Babylon 5 book nowadays (except for season guide books it looks like), especially considering many of those books are canon and conclude certain story elements.

Edited by benteen.
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I am thrilled that you finally watched it and enjoyed it. It is the best written Sci Fi show, start to finish, that I have seen. There are some shows that had some really strong seasons, Battle Star Galactica, but the overall arc fell apart for me. Lost started strong but totally fell apart. The story in B5 is so well thought out and strung together that it is simply amazing. Season 3 was by far one of the best written seasons of any television show that I know of.

 

The weakness that B5 had was in Production values and acting. (ducks all the flying debris headed her way). I love the character of Sinclair and thought that Michael O'Hare did an ok job acting but his inexperience acting on TV was evident and the revelation of his metal health crisis explains why Sinclair was always so stiff. Sheridan could have been a stronger character with a different actor. I know, heresy, I don't think that Boxlitner is that great of an actor and Sheridan came off as very one dimensional. Actually, most of the human characters were good but held back by their actors. I love Garibaldi and Ivanova but they could have been better portrayed.

 

Delenn, G'Kar, and Londo were amazingly written and acted. A part of me wonders if all the make up and prosthetics made it easier for the actors to lose themselves in the role. But those three hold the show together during some of the weaker episodes.

 

I wouldn't be too worried about not having the books. To Dream in the City of Shadows and the trilogies were the only ones worth having. Even the trilogies normally declined in the third book. The comic books were pretty good too. The art work was pretty horrific but the story was really solid.

 

I guess the books and comics follow the trend of the show, great writing, occasionally great production value but normally mediocre production value. So it is a great story that is not presented at its best which can make it hard to buy into.

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I disagree on Sheridan though Boxleitner certainly has his over-the-top moments.  I was pleased when I realized that Delenn was played by the same actress who played the French woman on Lost.  She was very good and the characters of Londo and G'Kar were consistently the best.  Agreed that the acting could be clunky at times and the dialogue could be cringe-inducing.  I think that has to do with the language restrictions of the era.  There were times when you needed harsher language and they could barely use the word "ass." 

 

I think we're agreement though about Battlestar Galactica and Lost.  I loved BSG and they had some great stories but I find my opinion of it declining with each passing year because it was clear that Ron Moore and his writers had absolutely no plan for a long-term story whatsoever.  The same with Lost.

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No many how many times I have watched the series, I cannot get past my dislike for Sheridan. He was so damn boring. I strongly prefer Sinclair. I wish that O'Hare's health had been good enough that he could have stayed on because I think we lost a lot of good stories when Sinclair departed. I also think it affected Garibaldi's growth.

 

But I know I am in the minority there.

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ProfCrash, I'm with you.  IMO BB can't act at all.  For four years, he was the hero we were supposed to watch and listen to with his gravelly voice, but Sinclair had so much more gravitas and a much better voice for leadership.  I thought Mira Furlan was great in the first season.  Her version of Delenn was strong and sure, and very confident.  The character may have lost confidence after that but whatever the reason, I detested MF's portrayal of Delenn after the change.  I absolutely loathed the way the actress tilted when she left a room.  Did you notice, as if her center of gravity couldn't withstand a corner? Put them together, the romantic leads of the show by actors I thought were seriously miscast well ... thank Valen for Andreas Katsulas, Peter Jurasik and Richard Biggs.

I bought the DVD sets when they were $75 EACH.  Yikes.  It hurts my heart to see how low the prices are now.  I would re-buy if they would come out in blu ray.  I am just now rewatching and have practically inhale seasons one and two in one week.  Damn the first three seasons of this show were stellar!

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Loved Boxleitner, hated O'Hare.  I don't know if I could have stayed with the show if he had remained.  I don't get gravitas from O'Hare.  I get wooden.

As to the rest of the cast, the chemistry they created was among the best in television.  

I need to do a rewatch.  Season's 2-5   ;-)  Although I do love the Season 1 episode (Believers) that focused strongly on Franklin.  

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I'm in the Boxleitner camp, too. I always thought that O'Haire was the weak spot in the show's otherwise stellar casting. Took me a while to warm up to him. Boxleitner, on the other hand, had me engaged from the moment he stepped on the screen.

And sure, he's not exactly the most nuanced of performers, but rewatch the episode where he's being tortured by that EarthGov interrogator, and tell me again he's a lousy actor.

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I could never really get into the show in season 1, so I can't make a comparison.   I don't think I have even seen all the episodes.

But I thought that the chemistry between the main cast starting from season 2 really worked.  That was a lot of the reason I didn't care for season 5.  Too much of everyone going their own way.

Edited by ParadoxLost.
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I think the argument is that Sheridan just had less dimensions as a character than Sinclair. Also in the first season, they were laying a lot of groundwork too, so there's that. Given the circumstances, it would have been interesting to see how the original treatment would have played out had O'Hare had more time to settle in. We never got much of his developing "Valen-ishness" until his final return to the show and then he was gone. 

If you re examine S1 imo, you'll see some subtle depth when Sinclair is alone with Garabaldi or Ivanova. And don't forget, the Minbari *insisted* on Sinclair to run B5; he had zero experience in this kind of command, and Garabaldi told him the brass had him no where on their radar for any command. He spent a lot of time in the initial season tromping around "Kirking" until Garabaldi called him on his BS. He did a great job pretending to be a bigot with Ivanova to investigate that whole thing too. 

I don't really have a problem with Sheridan. The whole plot leading up to and following "these orders have forced us to declare independence" was well done. I always loved his "apology speech" in the mirror too, and when he chewed out Kosh. 

Edited by ganesh.
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I don't know if it's been covered in this forum, but O'Hare had health issues that led to him voluntarily withdrawing from the show.  It's very sad, and very noble, and I don't have the heart to recap it here but this entry on wikipedia has the gist of it.

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I was neutral on both Sinclair and Sheridan, but always wondered what happened to Sinclair's girlfriend Catherine Sakai? Was it ever mentioned?

I liked that Sinclair was able to come back later though for the two-part episode

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Sakai is dealt with in the book To Dream in the City of Sorrows. She returns from her expediaiton, finds Sinclair gone and is sent to Minbar by Delenn. She goes on to become a Ranger and is going to marry Sinclair on Minbar. She is in the same training class as Marcus. She joins Marcus and Sinclair on a mission to protect the Great Machine on the planet below and her ship is sent through a time vortex thingy. It is unclear what her fate is although a big deal is made of the fact that Sinclair gives Catherine his time stabilizer. Sinclair gives Marcus the denbok that was destined for Catherine. When Sinclair goes back in time to become Valen he leaves a note that says that he found Catherine. It is cryptic so it is not sure if she was sent back to Valen's time or that he thinks he finds her in heaven.

Sinclair was wooden when the show started but by the end of the first season he was far more out going and engaged. I think part of it was O'Hare's relative lack of TV and Movie experience, he was mainly a stage performer before B5, and the fact that Sinclair was a very guarded individual. 

The actress who played Catherine commented in an interview that she had to walk O'Hare through the does and don'ts of a sex scene on TV because he had never had one before. The type of movement that you use on the stage and on the screen is different because the stage actor needs to be seen by the person in the back row while the screen actor is performing for the camera. So it would take some time to adjust his style. Toss in the mental illness he was dealing with and you had an actor who probably should not have been cast.

That said, Sinclair should have been a guarded, closed off character. Think about his back story. The Knight in the VR world flat out said that Sinclair was on track to be the youngest Admiral ever in Earth Force. He was seen as a rising star, someone who succeeded in pretty much everything. We saw that he was one of the few humans who could go toe to toe with a Minbari in combat. Remember, he beat Neroon, one of the top Warrior Caste leaders, in hand to hand combat when Neroon had the element of surprise. There were references that he was an astonishingly good Starfury pilot. He was skilled enough in strategy and combat to survive situations that others could not. He lost everything at the Battle of the Line. That missing 24 Hours caused so much distrust that Earth Force was actively trying to get him out of the service. He had to be excellent to survive and continue to advance in rank. Babylon 5 was suppose to be a dead end posting that no one wanted and that would end his career. The number of people he trusted was very small. I suspect that Garibaldi and Franklin were the only two members of his Command Staff that he trusted. By the end of Season One you can see that he has developed a good relationship with Ivanova and was working with her well. He might have even trusted her.  His character was more relaxed and was lightening up. Hell, he worked with Garibaldi to play a joke on Ivanova.

I suspect that Sinclair's growth would have been massive as the series continued. It is clear that he was never a yes man. He regularly skirted the rules, within the regs because he was smart, on B5. To Dream in the City of Sorrows clearly lays out that he is not willing to play by the Minbari rules. It is actually clear that he never really trusts the Minbari or the Vorlons, hence his cryptic message to Garibaldi from the Ranger in Season 2. He completely restructured the Rangers and built something that no one else could.  

Sheridan was a one dimensional golden boy who was suppose to have a subversive side (his collecting evidence for conspiracy theories) which is why he doesn't trust Earth Force and is willing to turn against Clark. The problem with Sheridan is that there is no real time spent explaining why Sheridan would be so willing to turn against Earth Force or believe the Minbari or work with the Rangers or do pretty much anything that he does do except that he is the golden boy who always does the right thing. There is no real possibility that Sheridan will ever make a bad choice or do the morally wrong thing. Because he is too much of the morally correct golden boy. His back story is boring. He did well as a kid, was the son of an Ambassador, did well at the Academy, got lucky in one battle, was shown off as a great hero because he got lucky with the Black Star, and was promoted up the ranks for that reason. He is smart and a good leader. But he is boring as all hell and gone and has the emotional gravitas of a grape.

We were going to get Sheridan sometime in season 2 or 3 in the original plan. Sinclair was Valen and was going to go away. I would have liked more time to see Sinclair's growth and to see more of how the two men interacted. I think Sheridan would have benefited from a more lengthy introduction and being eased into the series.

In some ways I see the way that Sheridan and Lochley were inserted so quickly and immediately into the series was part of the problem. We had no idea who they were and suddenly they were there. They replaced key players in the series with no real introduction and in many ways, we never really did get to know their back story. Sheridan likes the sound of rain on the roof and oranges and his Dad took them on Sunday drives is about what I know about Sheridan. I know even less about Lochley, she had a drug problem but we don't really know why or where it came from. They were important characters who lacked a substantial back story. When you compare what we know about them to what we knew about Sinclair or Garibaldi, or hell, Delenn, G'Kar, or Londo it really is disappointing.

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7 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

We were going to get Sheridan sometime in season 2 or 3 in the original plan. Sinclair was Valen and was going to go away. I would have liked more time to see Sinclair's growth and to see more of how the two men interacted. I think Sheridan would have benefited from a more lengthy introduction and being eased into the series.

Where did you see that Sheridan coming in season 2 or 3 was part of the original plan?  The outline for the series as of season 1 that JMS released didn't have Sheridan anywhere in it and has Sinclair sticking around for the entire series.

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 Sheridan was supposed to show up at some point in the original plan.   But rather than taking over the station, he was going to be a minor/recurring that headed a fleet of EarthForce ships based at B5.   I think--and this is the part I'm fuzzy on--that Sinclair was still going to become Valen and Sheridan was going to become station commander.  The difference was there was supposed to be overlap between the two and we were supposed to get know Sheridan gradually.

 As for Lochly, yeah that was just bad.  But so was pretty much most of season 5.  They were sort of painted in a corner since they couldn't get Ivanova back, but replacing a major/integral character that late in a show's run rarely works (e.g. Ezri Dax in Deep Space Nine).

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Not an episode comment, but I just watched Claudia Christian on NCIS.  

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I did not buy the script books so I don't have a full idea of what was suppose to happen when. I do know that JMS has said that Sinclair was always going to be Valen. There is nothing in the series to contradict this.  In the pilot, upon his arrival and first meeting of Sinclair, Kosh refers to Sinclair as Entilzah. Since Kosh was not a precog, the only way Kosh could have said that is if he knew that Sinclair was Valen, as Valen was the first Entilzah. Delenn and her 9,000 cryptic references to Sinclair as having a destiny and being something different/special. The Soul Hunter and his comment about how Sinclair does not know what they are planning.

If Sinclair was leaving, someone had to take over command of the station. If not Sheridan, then who? Ivanova? She would need to be promoted to at least Commander and that was not likely to happen with Sinclair on the station. Sheridan makes sense in a lot of ways. He is the Earth Force Golden Boy, he won the only major encounter that EF had against the Minbari. He had the look and, was by every measure, a good and competent leader. Babylon 5 had gone from a crap assignment that was suppose to die in the space of a year, to a more high profile assignment that had strategic importance. EF would want Sinclair's replacement to be someone they thought they could control (no more clever work arounds to strikes and random illegal mind probing of officers). Ivanova would not fit that description but Sheridan would. And he was on their original list of people to lead B5.

I think the Sheridan in command would have worked better with the overlap between the two characters. But I think the really problem with Sheridan was that the character had no real depth. He was suppose to be the Golden Boy but turned into more of a free thinker then EF thought he would be. He made a whole shit ton of crappy decisions (yeah, lets go ahead and meet with Garibaldi who is clearly messed up and cannot be trusted or oh lets go see the sights at Z'Ha'Dum because my recently returned to life wife who has clearly been messed with thinks it is a great idea) and was saved by pure luck (Garibaldi being released by Bester and the convenient location of Franklin and Lyta on Mars or Galen being on freaking Z'Ha'Dum at the same time and finding the only living Ancient One ever chilling in the middle of the put at Z'Ha'Dum).

Seriously, I had a whole list of opportunities that Sheridan could have died and it was pretty darn long. Sinclair did his damndest to die but that was intentional and character driven (Good Catholic boy cannot commit suicide so intentionally puts himself in harms way in order to find someone who can kill him but none of them are actually capable of pulling it off). Once Sinclair was called to the carpet for his death wish, he reflects and stops the stupidity. Sheridan had his lover and most trusted advisors telling him not to do the dumb stuff he did but he kept on doing it.

Sheridan was too much of an archetype and not enough of a well rounded character. Sinclair, Ivanova, Garibaldi even Franklin had some type of clearly developed character history that drove their actions. Sheridan never had that. Lochley had more of a history then Sheridan, daughter of a by the book EF member she rebelled and was addicted to drugs/alcohol. Turned her life around when she saw a friend die and turned into a by the book officer who made a questionable choice during the Civil War but one that made sense based on her history.

Seriously, what did we ever get about what drives Sheridan? He likes oranges. He went for Sunday drives with his family. Rain on the roof calms him. He collected conspiracy theories.

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Sinclair was always going to conduct the shadow war as the commander of B5 right till the end of the show, and *then* go back in time with B4, and Sheridan was going to kind of be the XO captaining the Agammemnon during the shadow war. I think the whole B4 incident would have been the end of the show. I don't think who was running the station would have been an issue. 

In the first season they had an episode that established the commander of B5 had the highest military authority in the sector, regardless of rank. Nothing ever panned out on that, but it was because in the original treatment it would have given Sinclair the authority to lead the shadow war. 

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On 1/5/2017 at 7:37 AM, ProfCrash said:

 

I did not buy the script books so I don't have a full idea of what was suppose to happen when. I do know that JMS has said that Sinclair was always going to be Valen. There is nothing in the series to contradict this.  In the pilot, upon his arrival and first meeting of Sinclair, Kosh refers to Sinclair as Entilzah. Since Kosh was not a precog, the only way Kosh could have said that is if he knew that Sinclair was Valen, as Valen was the first Entilzah. Delenn and her 9,000 cryptic references to Sinclair as having a destiny and being something different/special.

 

I thought that Kosh only called him Entilzah in the re-edited version they released as "the gathering."  By that point the Valen storyline has been revealed.  But when it first appeared in the realtime pilot i don't think Kosh said that did he?

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18 minutes ago, call me ishmael said:

I thought that Kosh only called him Entilzah in the re-edited version they released as "the gathering."  By that point the Valen storyline has been revealed.  But when it first appeared in the realtime pilot i don't think Kosh said that did he?

I don't actually remember.

I tend to believe the script books which align more with what @ganesh said and makes no mention of Sinclair as Valen.  I discount a lot of JMS interviews about Sinclair always leaving and becoming Valen because he was protecting O'Hare's privacy.

The script books talk about a post season 5 show/movie that says they steal B4 in the past to take it to into the future to defeat the Shadows.  There is no mention of time travel to before B4 is stolen where Sinclair becomes Valen.

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I never saw the pilot when it originally aired, but in The Gathering DVD, Kosh definitely says "Entil-zha Valen" from his POV and "puts out his hand" then "Sinclair" slaps the poison tab on him.* 

Sinclair was always Valen, regardless of the actor. It was just that due to MOH's unfortunate illness, the timetable was changed of when in the show that would actually happen.

I always liked how Lennier made a comment about how "Valen tells us..." and Delenn cracks, "That's because Sinclair was here. It's not prophecy. Stop it."

I'll tell you what, I didn't see it coming. Right after Ivanova says, "How are the Minbari going to listen to a human 1000 years ago about the Shadows?" and split second before Marcus spells it out, I went bonkers. *BECAUSE KOSH KNEW ALL ALONG!

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1 hour ago, ganesh said:

I never saw the pilot when it originally aired, but in The Gathering DVD, Kosh definitely says "Entil-zha Valen" from his POV and "puts out his hand" then "Sinclair" slaps the poison tab on him.* 

Sinclair was always Valen, regardless of the actor. It was just that due to MOH's unfortunate illness, the timetable was changed of when in the show that would actually happen.

I always liked how Lennier made a comment about how "Valen tells us..." and Delenn cracks, "That's because Sinclair was here. It's not prophecy. Stop it."

I'll tell you what, I didn't see it coming. Right after Ivanova says, "How are the Minbari going to listen to a human 1000 years ago about the Shadows?" and split second before Marcus spells it out, I went bonkers. *BECAUSE KOSH KNEW ALL ALONG!

I agree that Sinclair was going to be Valen.  I just think they redid that scene when they gussied the pilot into a movie.

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I thought that Kosh only called him Entilzah in the re-edited version they released as "the gathering."  By that point the Valen storyline has been revealed.  But when it first appeared in the realtime pilot i don't think Kosh said that did he?

The original version of the pilot did not include it. The pilot they aired when the show was sent to TNT included that scene. It was not a re-shoot, that scene had been shot, it just wasn't aired. There was a lot of new material in the Pilot, the walk through the Ambassadors corridors with Lyta which had been cut because WB thought that it looked like a weird Zoo, was another one. Nothing was re-shoot or gussied up for the remade Pilot. JMS was allowed to re-edit the Pilot by TNT so that it appeared the way he wanted it to originally. I was amazed at how many of my friends who started watching B5 when TNT picked it up totally missed that little plot piece. It went sailing over their heads. It was all kinds of amazing and awesome and I struggled to keep my mouth shut.

Take a close look at Season One and you will see that Sinclair was always destined to be Valen. Deleen spends half the season making cryptic comments about Sinclair and his soul. Deleen is not the only one to make said cryptic comments, Neroon tosses in a few as does the Soul Hunter and the Minbari assassin in the Pilot. You know, all those scenes that were reference in World Without End II when Sinclair is in the chrysalis. Then there is the scene in Sky Full of Stars when Sinclair is in front of the Grey Council and the Triluminary lights up the room and the whole soul transference issue. We know that the triluminary has some of Valen's DNA and reacts to people with that same DNA, which is why Sinclair lit it up. Then there is the whole idiotic Grail episode and Deleen's implication that Sinclair is a Seeker.

There is absolutely no way that Sinclair was destined to be anything other then Valen. He moved up Sinclair's departure because of O'Hare's illness. I think Boxlitner is a more confident actor and was probably easier to work with but Sheridan was never as deep or interesting as Sinclair. Or Garibaldi or Ivanova or Lyta or Talia... Sheridan was written to be a more minor character so he didn't need the same depth as the other characters. The shame of it all is that JMS did not write in more depth when he had the chance. It sounds like JMS knew that a change was coming, he offered to stop shooting while O'Hare received treatment but O'Hare knew that it wouldn't work. So JMS had a good chunk of time in Season 1 and before shooting Season 2 to expand on the charcter of Sheridan but he didn't. It sure feels like he tried to move some of Sinclair's plot points to Sheridan, meeting with the Minbari and Kosh which was somehow completely ignored until that movie aired is one example.

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Thought I'd drop in after watching In The Beginning. It's been awhile. Seeing it now gives me a whole new sympathy for Dukat. Such an honorable person, and he was totally used by the Vorlons as a means to an end. 

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I never watched all of S! and S5 of this show and didn't bother buying those DVDs.  I've watched S2-S4 multiple times.

So now that the whole series is available on Amazon Prime, I'm going to finally watch all of season 1. 

I'm about halfway through S1 now and struggling with it.

Early episodes...the dialogue was awful.  It was like they were trying to create the human characters through dialogue and they were doing stuff like  Ivanova is Russian and has to speak words out of order in the most awkward way possible to get that across.  And every single human character is so stiff initially, especially in groups.  Knowing that later seasons didn't feel this way and Londo, Vir, and G'Kar never came across this way its feeling like this was the show's way of conveying that they are members of the human military.  But it comes across as actors taking turns to say their lines with no actual connection to each other or the material.   Its uncomfortable to watch.   I think this is why I could never get into season 1.

It was cool at the beginning to catch hints of what was to come.  And counting the times they say the word "shadow" should be a drinking game.

But I've been on a string of stand alone episodes for a while and I definitely liked the show better when it got more into the arcs in later seasons.  Rewatch has convinced me that Sinclair was supposed to be around for the whole show if for no other reason than I'm noticing how many of Sinclair's plots they had Sheridan repeat to have a similar well of experiences to draw on and relationship building to set up the rest of the series. 

Ah, finally.  Mr Morden has arrived.  And Ivanova, Garibaldi, and Sinclair are having a discussion of raiders that has them relaxed in each others presence.  And Londo and G'Kar fighting. " Signs and Portents", perhaps this is where it starts getting good.

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I think everyone agrees that Signs and Portents is really where the show takes off. 

Given what we know now with the actor, I think there's a lot of Sinclair we just missed out on. 

I would suggest seeking out the original treatment of the show which will give more context. 

I do think the first season did well with Sinclair, Garabaldi, and Ivanova, with Londo as a major supporting character. 

If Prof Crash is still around, you'll get much more in depth analysis. 

Edited by ganesh.
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16 hours ago, ganesh said:

Given what we know now with the actor, I think there's a lot of Sinclair we just missed out on. 

Yeah, I wonder what the show would have been like if Sinclair had stayed, and also if Talia had stayed on as well.  I do have to admit, I did not really get attached to the Sinclair. Whatever happened to Catherine Sakai?

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Had he stayed the story would have been much the same except they would have stolen B4 at the end of the series and he would have gone back. Which I hoped still included Ivanova's hilarious incredulity - You mean the people who stole B4 is US?!!

Remember when there was the S1 episode and they made a big deal that whomever was in command of B5 was the ranking military officer? That's because Sinclair was going to run the shadow war and Sheridan was going to be the flagship captain. 

I don't know if it's still out there, but there's the treatment of what the original story was going to be. 

Sakai went back in time. "Valen" left a message for Marcus that he found her. 

You should read To Dream in the City of Sorrows and the three trilogies. They're considered canon. Sorrows is a huge Sinclair story after he leaves B5. It really fills in why Marcus was so loyal to him. 

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16 hours ago, ganesh said:

Sakai went back in time. "Valen" left a message for Marcus that he found her. 

 

I'm glad they stayed together. i'd heard about that but didn't know if it was the actual story or fan hoping.

 

I've never found any of the books, unless I can hunt them down via interlibrary loan I'm not sure if I'll be able to read them. I was always more interested in the Psi-Corps and Centauri Prime.

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