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All Episodes Talk: It Was the Dawn of the Third Age

24 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

I don't think that JMS ever covers how Kosh comes to know that Sinclair and Valen are the same person.

Kosh was one of the Vorlon Sinclair called when he took B4 into the past and turned into Valen. I just don't buy that Sinclair/Valen wouldn't have told Kosh. 

26 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

"Kosh wears an encounter suit to protect him from our atmosphere," he says, "so how did the poison get into his system? His hand should have been completely covered."

You're saying it yourself. Kosh deliberately took his "hand" out. 

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19 minutes ago, ganesh said:

You're saying it yourself. Kosh deliberately took his "hand" out. 

No, that was a quote from the episode. Sinclair asks that and "Ivanova explains that the Vorlons are very secretive, and that, perhaps, the encounter suit may be more useful as a camouflage than as a necessary protection from the environment." The link takes you to the transcript for the episode which lays out the entire conversation. We see in the Season 2 finale that a Vorlon outside its suit is seen as a deity by all those present. That is why they wear the encounter suit. Not because Vorlons require it for any type of protection. So the "hand" that we see is how the Minbari was viewing the Vorlon, the physical manifestation of the Minbari deity, hence the hand. It was still a physical manifestation of the Vorlon and where it was that the assassin planted the poison.

22 minutes ago, ganesh said:

Kosh was one of the Vorlon Sinclair called when he took B4 into the past and turned into Valen. I just don't buy that Sinclair/Valen wouldn't have told Kosh. 

Yup. And I am sure that the Vorlons took about 30 seconds to figure out that Sinclair was not a Minbari and that the triluminary was Vorlon technology. JMS never addresses if Sinclair told Kosh who he was in the future or if Kosh pieces it together during the Earth Minbari war when Sinclair is captured. Or Zathras might have told the Vorlons. It is one of the smaller missing details. All that matters is that Kosh knows when he arrives on B5. I suspect that Kosh is more removed from Sinclair then he is Sheridan precisely because Kosh is worried about giving away too much information to Sinclair.

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Comet TV just picked up Babylon 5 and is currently airing it at 9pm ET and noon ET the next day. It's available on some broadcast stations, but it also steams live (at least in the US) on comettv.com.

The main drawback for me is that they're showing it in widescreen format, and the top and bottom of the original picture is cut off.

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I think everything they show is in widescreen format.

They filmed it that way originally but didn't render the CGI in widescreen to save money on buying a monitor.  Then for inexplicable reasons, knowing the quality would be worse because they didn't to the CGI widescreen, they used the widescreen as a selling feature of the DVDs.  Then there was a fire and rats that destroyed some of the original tapes.  It would cost them money to put the whole thing into standard again to get the CGI to match up and improve the quality, so they give all the syndication and streaming services (last I heard) the widescreen version.

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I just can't get past that Kosh taking his hand out wasn't deliberate and he knew how everything was going to play out. Given how the books showed him to be so sympathetic to the humans to the point where the rest of the Vorlon tooled on him, and the fact that Sinclair somehow literally stole an entire space station back in time 1000 years, Kosh had to arrive at the conclusion that the humans and B5 were key to defeating the Shadows.

Sinclair would have known enough about Sheridan to tell Kosh to at least check him out. Sinclair wouldn't know *how* the Shadows would be defeated, but there's no way a Vorlon would literally sacrifice for a mere human if he wasn't convinced they were the key to defeating them. Delenn even said, when Sheridan jumped out of the transport to, that he had to save Sheridan because he 'knew how important he was.' Delenn may have recognized in real time just getting to know Sheridan that he would be a good leader in the fight, but Kosh had to have future knowledge from Sinclair as Valen to take as many risks as he did. 

Kosh may have distanced himself from 'Sinclair', but only because he had that foreknowledge imo.

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Realistically speaking, we only saw two Vorlons for most of the series, Kosh and Ulkesh. They clearly represented different factions in the Vorlons, one being less iron fisted and one more militant. When it gets down to it, we only really saw two factions of the Minbari, those who believed in soul migration and those who didn't. We saw a lot of black and white, represented by one or two characters, and not much of the nuances. While the books dived into those grey areas a bit more, at least the Techno Mage series spent a little time on the Vorlons or at least hinted at the plotics at play, no one really delved into political factions on Vorlon.

Kosh was clearly someone who valued a bit more guidance and gentle touch while Ulkesh was more iron fisted make them do what we want. Ulkesh fits the larger narrative, in the sense that the Vorlons represented Control and the Shadows Chaos and they were duking it out using the younger races as pawns. Kosh fits the overall story arc of the Ambassadors to B5, all of the major alliance Ambassadors were someone on the fringe (Londo and Sinclair) or respected and expected to take charge of the council (Delenn and G'Kar). Kosh appears to be on the fringe, if Ulkesh is meant to represent the posture of the Vorlons dealing with the war.

We know very little of what happened to Sinclair when he went back in time. We know little to nothing from the show. The little we know comes from the book To Dream in the City of Sorrows and the comic book mini series. In the book all we get is that he left a note that he found Catherine. We  know nothing else. We don't know if the two of them had kids, making the start of the Human/Minbari hybrids or if the hybrids came from Valen having kids with a Minbari wife. All we know is that Valen had kids (because his DNA propagates, all the Humans who had Minbari Souls are descendants of Valen.) From the comics we get that Valen lived 100 years or so past when Sinclair went back in time. He almost left a message for Delenn to tell her about the war and try and stop the Minbari/Human war. He stops because Zathras reminds him that was an awful idea but Delenn's name is passed on to one of the races that worked with the Minbari.

I am not sure that Sinclair would have told Kosh about the future in great detail but he would have had to tell Kosh something. The Vorlon's know that the B4 is not Mnbari. They would recognize the Vorlon tech to make the triluminary. If the Vorlons were telepathic, they might have been able to read Sinclair's mind and get the info they needed. Or they might have had allies that were telepathic that they had read his mind.

Whatever it is that they knew, there are more then enough hints that the Vorlons were not so sure what the path forward was when B5 came into being. God knows that Ulkesh did nothing to make Sinclair want to work with the Vorlons when they were together on Minbari. Sinclair was consistently battling Ulkesh with the Minbari leader acting as an intermediary. If the Vorlons were so sure that Sinclair was the key to defeating the Shadows, I would expect that Ulkesh would have known to play nice with Sinclair.

As for Sheridan, I would have preferred that Kosh let Sheridan fall to his death. In fact, I was screaming at my TV set "Let him fall." That aside, I think it was more that Kosh trusted Delenn then had advanced knowledge regarding Sheridan. To Dream in the City of Sorrows, or one of the comic book mini series, makes it clear that Sinclair had little knowledge of who Sheridan really was. They had a brief encounter at the Academy, Sinclair dumped a meal on Sheridan during Sinclair's first year and Sheridan's last, and they had a brief encounter during the Mars riots. Sinclair had no clue what role that Sheridan would play in the Shadow War, other then Sheridan was a leader who Delenn trusted, and would not have been able to say "Sheridan will save the future."

The reality is that Delenn is the key factor when it comes to Sinclair and Sheridan. It is her endorsement that puts both of them in their respective roles. Delenn is the one who announces that Sinclair is carrying Valen's soul which leads to the Minbari insisting on Sinclair commanding B5. Delenn, who was tagged to replace Dukhat, was the one who worked with Kosh and the Vorlons during and after the Earth/Minbari war. And it was Delenn who backed Sheridan when he came to the station.

I can't find the quote but I remember reading that JMS once said that Kosh showed himself to Sinclair because he greatly respected Sinclair and saw him as a friend and in the moment, forgot that Sinclair would not know Kosh or their history. The question still remains what the assassin's plan was given that the Vorlons were normally in their encounter suit and there was no reason the expect that Kosh would expose himself.

I still say it would be awesome to have a series based on Valen but that will probably never happen.

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On 10/2/2018 at 9:07 PM, ketose said:

Comet TV just picked up Babylon 5 and is currently airing it at 9pm ET and noon ET the next day. It's available on some broadcast stations, but it also steams live (at least in the US) on comettv.com.

The main drawback for me is that they're showing it in widescreen format, and the top and bottom of the original picture is cut off.

I was just about to mention that! I haven't watched B5 in decades, so it's fun to rewatch and remember. 

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Signs and Portents

Pivotal ep, we meet Mr Morden for the first time, we see why the Centuri were picked by the Shadows as their puppets, some cool space battles and the end of the raiders who were pretty stupid as an enemy. And our first Shadow ship! Plus the famous bathroom in space scene. 

Edited by Joe Hellandback.
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TKO

So Ivanova is a female, Russian, Jewess, Lesbian? Wow, if only she was black and handicapped as well, she'd tick every box! What a walking cliché her Rabbi is, I look forward to a Muslim cleric ever being represented on TV in such a positive fashion. Interesting that they refer to the trouble in Russia, at the time of broadcast it was in the mess following the end of the Cold War, now things would be very different. The Garabaldi fight storyline is okay but you wonder that B5 would allow a martial art competition which killed 5 beings in less than a year? Pretty low key and emotional character driven ep this week after all the excitement (and expense) of the last ep.  

On ‎17‎/‎04‎/‎2014 at 2:42 AM, DeeJayKay said:

I've been semi-binge watching, about a season a month, then my son grabs the DVDs so he can watch, and calls me up to say that he'd forgotten how GOOD it was.  I had missed bits and pieces of it when it originally aired, so that's rather interesting.

 

Just finished "The Corp is mother, the Corp is father"< one of those I had not seen before.  But I did see where it was going....

Sky One is repeating the series here in the UK so I can watch one a day which is a real treat, we all seem to be on a 90s kick at the moment, maybe they'll do a B5 reboot? 

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11 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

So Ivanova is a female, Russian, Jewess, Lesbian? Wow, if only she was black and handicapped as well,

Black, no.  But she does become temporarily handicapped at the start of season 2...

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23 minutes ago, SVNBob said:

Black, no.  But she does become temporarily handicapped at the start of season 2...

One thing I would add, Claudia Christian was in a very cheap sci-fi movie called 'Arena' which mimics the fight club storyline quite vividly. 

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0101366/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_119

I find it great that all the dumb films of my youth are now available for free online. 

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1 hour ago, ganesh said:

The whole point of TKO was for the line "watch your back Michael." 

We can say that but JMS says it is more to flush out Ivanova. 

a JMS quote from Lurker's Guide: "Channel 4 in the UK didn't show "TKO" during the initial run TKO's main importance is to the Ivanova arc, as she finally comes to terms with her father's death. Do I have an opinion on C4's decision not to show TKO? Absolutely."

I actually like the attempts that they made to provide real depth to the characters. I like that Sinclair was very much there for Ivanova.

But the only real take away for me was the "watch your back Michael." line

Also from Lurkers: "As I've noted before, over the long haul, as you watch episodes, you will see things you didn't see before. Sometimes they're clues, and sometimes they're comments which now read a different way than they did the first time you saw them. There's been a number of the latter very subtly sprinkled through the episodes aired so far...lines that everyone jumped on as meaning one thing, but which will mean something else, and lines which nobody thought much of the first time out...but which will elicit a wince of irony later on.

There's a corker in "TKO," but at the moment, it's absolutely invisible. It's not a clue, it's not necessary for the story, it's just one of those things that, after you've seen all the rest of this season's episodes, you will go "Ouch," when you see it next."

 

Clearly referencing the "watch your back line". I love how JMS seeded the show with those little moments that you totally miss only to have them come back to haunt you later.

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21 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

We can say that but JMS says it is more to flush out Ivanova. 

a JMS quote from Lurker's Guide: "Channel 4 in the UK didn't show "TKO" during the initial run TKO's main importance is to the Ivanova arc, as she finally comes to terms with her father's death. Do I have an opinion on C4's decision not to show TKO? Absolutely."

I actually like the attempts that they made to provide real depth to the characters. I like that Sinclair was very much there for Ivanova.

But the only real take away for me was the "watch your back Michael." line

Also from Lurkers: "As I've noted before, over the long haul, as you watch episodes, you will see things you didn't see before. Sometimes they're clues, and sometimes they're comments which now read a different way than they did the first time you saw them. There's been a number of the latter very subtly sprinkled through the episodes aired so far...lines that everyone jumped on as meaning one thing, but which will mean something else, and lines which nobody thought much of the first time out...but which will elicit a wince of irony later on.

There's a corker in "TKO," but at the moment, it's absolutely invisible. It's not a clue, it's not necessary for the story, it's just one of those things that, after you've seen all the rest of this season's episodes, you will go "Ouch," when you see it next."

 

Clearly referencing the "watch your back line". I love how JMS seeded the show with those little moments that you totally miss only to have them come back to haunt you later.

Yes, we very much see more of Ivanova here, the seeds of the girl we come to love. 

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Grail

Like the alien abduction court case which was of course all the rage at the time with the X-files. Delenn says the Minbari have 2 castes, I thought it was 3? Vir back and we see the difference between him and Londo in terms of money. But how come David Warner (magnificent as ever) never asks G'Kar? Ivanova's 'Boom tomorrow' is funny AND prescient, nice concept about Jinxo, like the ravens with the Tower of London or apes at Gibraltar. Beyond that the fake Kosh storyline is simply too dumb for words. 

On ‎20‎/‎04‎/‎2014 at 7:18 PM, ganesh said:

I think I've watched the series about 5 maybe 6 times. When it was airing every night on SciFi M-Th I would leave it on when preparing dinner etc. I have yet to see a show, overall, story-wise that still holds up as well as this 2 decades on. 

Just yesterday, the news was talking about the latest payload to go up to the space station and they'll be growing their own food now. I can't help but think of Sinclair's monologue to the news anchor about why we have to go into space. 

With the Boston Marathon tomorrow, I was thinking about how Sheridan had to deal with the guy who was bombing on the station and how they talked about terrorism. Even more relevant in our world now than it was then. 

Just off the top of my head, thinking about how we're worried about the NSA spying on us and collecting all this data: there's the psy-corps. 

All sci-fi is actually about here and now, Bab5 was based in the odd period when the Cold War was over and the world was having to adjust to momentous upheavals. Nowadays of course you'd get some Elon Mush character trying to fund risky new exploratory ventures. 

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On 11/15/2018 at 2:08 PM, ProfCrash said:

We can say that but JMS says it is more to flush out Ivanova. 

a JMS quote from Lurker's Guide: "Channel 4 in the UK didn't show "TKO" during the initial run TKO's main importance is to the Ivanova arc, as she finally comes to terms with her father's death. Do I have an opinion on C4's decision not to show TKO? Absolutely."

 

I remember that they showed it later on during some sci-fi special evening.  It was the first episode I'd seen of Babylon 5 (was away at University while S1 aired and I didn't have Channel 4).   It didn't exactly make me want to watch the rest of the series, and only for Bruce Boxleitner being in S2, I probably wouldn't have started watching when I did get access to Channel 4. 

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