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S02.E03: Partner Up 2016.03.20

Cait reveals her deepest fears about dating men after she witnesses Candis get stood up by a guy because she's trans.
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I'm kind of blown away by this, which references a "sneak peek" at this episode released earlier this week.

 

 

That's not the only time the former Olympian's interactions with men is explored in Sunday's episode: in a previously released sneak peek, Jenner refuses to dance with a man during a group salsa lesson.

 

"I am not with doing this," she says in the clip. "Having a bunch of guys here, so we dance with guys? That ain't happening. That picture is going to go all over the world and I don't want my kids to see that."

 

http://www.people.com/article/caitlyn-jenner-afraid-rejectiong-i-am-cait

 

She announces to the world she's a woman, undergoes millions of dollars worth of reconstructive surgery to make herself appear female, poses on the cover of Vanity Fair magazine in a bizarre parody of a glamour girl shot, and aspires to be the face of the 21st century transgender community -- yet she is shaken to her core by the idea of dancing with a man?   In a group?

 

And worse, she says she's afraid her kids will see it?

 

She's acting less like a woman and more like a man terrified of being perceived as gay.  I'm not drawing any conclusions when I say this, but this kind of behavior is very typical of some heterosexual crossdressers.    They'll dress up to the nines, but want to scratch your eyes out if you make the slightest suggestion they might be gay.

 

"I don't want my kids to see that.

 

Why?   What is so inherently wrong about dancing with a man -- even if she were a man herself, which the courts say she isn't?  

 

To paraphrase Jerry Seinfeld, "And you want to be my 'trans ambassador?'"  This is someone who obviously isn't comfortable casually interacting with half the population on the planet.  And who thinks it's somehow wrong that the public and her children should see her innocently dancing with a man.

 

It's just a dance.   It doesn't mean anything. 

 

She's really fucked up. 

Edited by millennium.
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But wasn't she also adamant that she isn't a lesbian? So is she fleeing from both genders because she's totally homophobic?

 

I think at least one kid wouldn't care if they saw Cait dancing with a guy as long as Cait doesn't barge into her runway show. But Cait won't listen to her kid on that point, because she wants to walk the runway.

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How many times did she say she had to go to NY to accept the Glamor Most Influential Woman Award?

Does she really think seeing her dance with a man will upset her kids? She's filming the second season of a show about her transition, I doubt a picture of her dancing with a guy will put them over the edge.

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I think it has more to do with where Jenner falls on the transgender spectrum than anything to do with her kids.

Edited by millennium.
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I have never watched KUWTK (other than clips on The Soup - RIP) -- and after tonight I understand why.  WTF is with these people?  A gang at the drivers' license center, but no one at her award show?  (hee)  In my town and family, we go by ourselves and have our driver's license pic taken by a DMV employee, but when we want underage teens to accompany us cross-country, we take them with us.

 

An appropriate parent/daughter moment snuck its way in, when Cait declared that she almost discussed dating with Kylie, but couldn't.  Granted, she seemed to think it was something to be embarrassed about, but actually, Cait - as a recently transitioned 65YO who is unsure about how/whom to date, you probably shouldn't have your first big convo about that with your teen-aged daughter.  Luckily, they kept their reputations intact with the vagina conversation.  FYI, Einsteins - it takes more than a ripped seam to have your entire vagina hang out!  Just sayin ")

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May I just say I think Zackary is absolutely adorable. And good for her for taking on "JB" who seems to think she's the ultimate authority on how transgender people "should" think and behave. (Have to give her props, though, for not only going to the drag show but really getting into it.)

The only really weak link in "I Am Cait" is Cait.

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JB is so miserable with her authority on how the community must act. 

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There will never be a time when I’m not going to find Kylie repeatedly saying to Cailtlyn “my va-gin-a” not funny.

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There will never be a time when I’m not going to find Kylie repeatedly saying to Cailtlyn “my va-gin-a” not funny.

So true.  And if her vagina were hanging out, she'd be in an emergency room, not a hotel room.  

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I don't know why I keep watching 'I Am Cait' but I assume it's for the same reason that I watch 'KUWTK'. I don't like Cait and I don't like any of the Kardashian's. I think they're all shameful, vulgar, arrogant, ostentatious, shallow, selfish, egocentric, twats. (did I just exceed the max.adjectives?) I don't like any of them and I don't condone any of their indecent, distasteful behavior. Maybe I watch in the hope that they will either fail miserably and just go away from television forever, or that they'll suddenly have a 'come to Jesus' moment and see the fault of their narcissist ways and turn over a new, more spiritual leaf. Maybe I'm waiting for at least one of them to shun the cloaks of their decadent life and prove that at least one of them is a not a miserable, worthless human being. Maybe I'm waiting for the sky to turn a beautiful shade of purple and for rain to shower us with pink lemonade.

Alright, I think you get the message. When she was Bruce, Caitlyn Jenner had spent more than 65 years of her life proving to the world that she was a superior man capable of just about any physical feat. In High School it was basketball, track, pole-vaulting, high-jumping. Each of those were sports in which it was possible that ONE PERSON be singled out to be the best. Later in life Olympic hero, water-skiing, golf, motorcycles and helicopters. Anything that was a physical single-person sport or contest, she HAD to be the best at. What Caitlyn as Bruce Jenner was busy proving to the world and herself back then was "look at me how masculine I am".

65 years later and Caitlyn has realized her lifelong dream to becoming a female. But inside her brain still lives the male egocentric side. Does she really believe that dancing with a man or dating a man would be any less traumatic to Kylie and Kendall than say finding her trying on Kris's clothes when they were very young? Would they be more hurt, shocked or whatever to find out their dad wanted a 'relationship' with a man? Kylie and Kendall aren't innocent babies and if both are mature enough to handle the fact that their father has transitioned to a woman then they're ready for the next step. I think the biggest fear for Caitlyn is that anyone, not only her children, but anyone would for even 2 seconds think that Bruce Jenner may have been gay all his life and just hid that fact behind the persona of a virile, rugged, super-masculine male. Caitlyn may be a female but she has no balls, and I meant that metaphorically. She is terrified that anyone would even remotely believe that she was a gay male all her life and protected herself and her reputation all her life. She's an 'old school Republican' and that's exactly what they did in 'his generation', they pretended and covered up for their homosexuality all the way to the end of their lives. Caitlyn just cannot get past that bump in the road.

Edited by 17wheatthins. Reason: Proper name/pronoun use
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So well put, HumblePi.

And one of the Kardashians (Kim) has already had a come-to-Jesus moment. His name is Kanye. (Snort!)

Edited by TomGirl.
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Kylies wardrobe malfunction? Oddly both her first choice and her backup failed. Her zipper in the back ripped, exposing her "va-gin-a" . She seems confused about where exactly her "va-gin-a" is located. I guess all that home schooling didn't include basic anatomy.

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65 years later and Caitlyn has realized her lifelong dream to becoming a female. But inside her brain still lives the male egocentric side. Does she really believe that dancing with a man or dating a man would be any less traumatic to Kylie and Kendall than say finding her trying on Kris's clothes when they were very young? Would they be more hurt, shocked or whatever to find out their dad wanted a 'relationship' with a man? Kylie and Kendall aren't innocent babies and if both are mature enough to handle the fact that their father has transitioned to a woman then they're ready for the next step. I think the biggest fear for Caitlyn is that anyone, not only her children, but anyone would for even 2 seconds think that Bruce Jenner may have been gay all his life and just hid that fact behind the persona of a virile, rugged, super-masculine male. Caitlyn may be a female but she has no balls, and I meant that metaphorically. She is terrified that anyone would even remotely believe that she was a gay male all her life and protected herself and her reputation all her life. She's an 'old school Republican' and that's exactly what they did in 'his generation', they pretended and covered up for their homosexuality all the way to the end of their lives.  Caitlyn just cannot get past that bump in the road.

I don't think that's it.

 

Why should she care any more that people thought she was a gay male all her life when she's revealed that she's been a woman all her life? The latter is certainly a more extreme revelation.  And it's more in line with conservative values for her to now date men.

 

The issue with not wanting to upset her children by dating a man seems more connected with her not wanting to introduce another father figure into the kids' lives.  Or introduce a male father to take the place of her — a female father.  It's about Cait. It's not about the "kids."

 

Fundamentally, she seems very torn between her continued sexual attraction to women, a fact that did not change after she transitioned, her desire to be a traditional woman who dates men, and her overall desire not to rock the boat.

Edited by RemoteControlFreak.
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Well, Damn.  Let me first say, that I'd watch a bus tour of everyone except Caitlyn every week.

 

 Kate Bornstein's request for marijuana had me thinking that might not be a bad thing.  

   I loved how she did her little hand clap when the idea of attending a drag show was proposed.  I just really like her energy.  

 

  Jenny Boylan really has no real room for anyone who doesn't walk her walk, does she?  Good on Zackary for taking her to task.

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One of the ways celebrities are not like us normal folks... the DMV was EMPTY! They had it all to themselves, when does that happen? I've heard that several branches have a special room so that celebrities can have privacy, but this looked like the entire freakin' DMV was opened special for her and her kids.

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I think it's awesome how Caitlyn has been trying to protect her "kids" from anything upsetting. I assume her kids are 6 and 8 years old?

They have obviously been living a protected, sheltered life and know nothing about living in the real world. I think it's sweet of their dad to use them for an excuse whenever she doesn't want to do something. Always putting children first - that's our Cait!

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One of the ways celebrities are not like us normal folks... the DMV was EMPTY! They had it all to themselves, when does that happen? I've heard that several branches have a special room so that celebrities can have privacy, but this looked like the entire freakin' DMV was opened special for her and her kids.

Why did her drivers license have to be mailed to her? Plus Kim was talking about the lighting, do celebs get to submit their own picture for their license?

I wonder if that restaurant would have refused permission for filming if Caitlyn had been there, and what would her reaction have been. So far she's not faced any push back that we've seen, I'd like to see if it changes her stance on things.

Her laughing at Candis getting stood up was cruel, but I think she was glad it happened because shes scared of losing her one true friend in the group. It's clear she has feelings for Candis, whether she wants to face them now or not. Not so sure they're reciprocated.

They all seem like nice people, but I just feel they're very unrealistic about the possibilities for real long lasting relationships with opposite sex partners, especially if they are looking outside, as they say, their community.

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I think it's awesome how Caitlyn has been trying to protect her "kids" from anything upsetting. I assume her kids are 6 and 8 years old?

They have obviously been living a protected, sheltered life and know nothing about living in the real world. I think it's sweet of their dad to use them for an excuse whenever she doesn't want to do something. Always putting children first - that's our Cait!

Yeah, she's a sweetheart. She's known that Kim and the older girls and most likely Rob, have known for more than half the time she and Kris were married, Kendall and Kylie both say they've known for years also. But she's never discussed it with them. She's gone behind their backs and had surgeries and made life altering plans, came out on national TV as a woman, but doesn't want to shock them by dating and..... Horrors!!! Possibly having sex with a man!!!

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I don't think that's it.

 

Why should she care any more that people thought she was a gay male all her life when she's revealed that she's been a woman all her life? The latter is certainly a more extreme revelation.  And it's more in line with conservative values for her to now date men.

 

The issue with not wanting to upset her children by dating a man seems more connected with her not wanting to introduce another father figure into the kids' lives.

 

Fundamentally, she seems very torn between her continued sexual attraction to women, a fact that did not change after she transitioned, her desire to be a traditional woman who dates men, and her overall desire not to rock the boat.

Caitlyn still retains the mentality many rigid right-wing fundamentalist conservatives in that she supports a party that discriminates against the LGBT community. In her old life, she was in alignment with those conservatives that sought to limit the rights of people whose religious beliefs differed from their own. They live strictly by the rules set by a religious right. The incident that illustrated that in this episode was when the management of the restaurant in Tulsa, Oklahoma denied the filming with cameras only after management discovered it was for the show 'I Am Cait'.  Prior to having that information, the manager was willing to accept the camera crew in the restaurant. This is an important moment in this episode and it's a prime example of conservative thinking, particularly in that part of the country, the 'bible belt'. I wonder if Caitlyn Jenner was there with the others if that restaurant manager would still deny them access to film in his restaurant or if Caitlyn's 'fame' would encourage him to accept the group?

 

I think that for younger generations than the one that Caitlyn Jenner grew up with, it's very difficult to imagine that a man or a woman would make the choice to be miserable all their lives in order to hide what they really are. Sure, Caitlyn has come out and admitted to having the mind of a woman since she was a youngster, BUT (and this is a big but), Caitlyn Jenner has no wish to divulge the fact that she has always been attracted more to a male than a female sexually. The problem with her admitting that she has been a gay male all her life is that she has gone through great pains to conceal that fact including marrying 3 woman and being the father to 10 children, six of them being biological children. Let me say it this way. A person's mind, the 'ID' the self doesn't change from birth. It's not a choice to be attracted sexually to either a male or a female and that's something that doesn't suddenly become moderated or changed. As the saying goes. 'It is what it is'. If you really think about it, by Caitlyn admitting now that she has a sexual attraction to men would essentially let the cat out of the bag with all her children. It would take a minute for any of them to realize that fathering them and being married to several women was the way that Caitlyn covered up her own sexuality and presented to the world someone that wasn't the real her.

 

I will use Caitlyn's own words in this episode to illustrate this exact point. In this one statement, Caitlyn Jenner summed up her entire life. Her biggest fear, her entire 66 years has been a lie. Admitting to being sexually attracted to men would certainly prove it in the eyes of her children. She had felt that the women, (all the women) in her life would shun her and not accept her. Since the the acceptance and respect of others in her life have been of paramount importance, having them regard her negatively and see her as a 'freak' would be devastating to her very core.

"You don't grow up your whole life as being me and think that your biggest fear is that you would be thought of as an absolute freak and weirdo, and to be so welcome by not only by the trans community but uh, Glamour magazine....women in general." 

 

You believe;

"Fundamentally, she seems very torn between her continued sexual attraction to women, a fact that did not change after she transitioned, her desire to be a traditional woman who dates men, and her overall desire not to rock the boat."

 

I don't think that Caitlyn Jenner is torn in the least about who she is attracted to sexually, I only believe that she's torn about coming out and admitting it publicly.

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You believe;

"Fundamentally, she seems very torn between her continued sexual attraction to women, a fact that did not change after she transitioned, her desire to be a traditional woman who dates men, and her overall desire not to rock the boat."

 

I don't think that Caitlyn Jenner is torn in the least about who she is attracted to sexually, I only believe that she's torn about coming out and admitting it publicly.

Right. What I said does not conflict with what you are saying. The conflict is about how to act, not about who she is.

Edited by RemoteControlFreak.
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We really don't know who Caitlyn is attracted to, and maybe she doesn't even know herself. She has talked about the "man on her arm" in an abstract sense, but she hasn't expressed any desire to be with another person. Candis seems to pine for someone to love, and someone who will love her. She came alive when Laith hugged her, but Caitlyn seemed almost bored when speaking to a man at the venue.

She discusses dating very abstractly, but she shies away from pursuing such interactions.

Maybe she is asexual, and that's OK.

I'm her age, and frankly I prefer companionship rather than a love affair.

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Is Cait afraid of her kids? If I was expecting my kid to show up with me as promised to a very special event and she uses some asshole excuse for not being there, I would ream her out so badly she would know never to pull that shit again! She just lets all of them talk to her and treat her so disrespectfully. 

 

If I hear her say one more time that she's "uncomfortable" with something they are doing on camera for the "world to see" I'm gonna kick my Tv in!  She has so damn  many hangups she really shouldn't be doing this show.  And, yea, I think she has a thing for Candis. Nothing wrong with that but just admit it, already. She has no interest in dating men. 

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We really don't know who Caitlyn is attracted to, and maybe she doesn't even know herself. She has talked about the "man on her arm" in an abstract sense, but she hasn't expressed any desire to be with another person. Candis seems to pine for someone to love, and someone who will love her. She came alive when Laith hugged her, but Caitlyn seemed almost bored when speaking to a man at the venue.

She discusses dating very abstractly, but she shies away from pursuing such interactions.

Maybe she is asexual, and that's OK.

I'm her age, and frankly I prefer companionship rather than a love affair.

I don't think she's asexual, though being married to Kris Jenner might have scared any man away from any relationship with anyone of any gender, ever.

 

I think she's scared shitless of being a lesbian.  It doesn't fit with her conservative values or her image of what a real woman is.  The only women living as lesbians on the bus are Jenny Boylan and Kate Bornstein and they couldn't be further away from Cait in values and lifestyle.

Edited by RemoteControlFreak.
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And Kate Bornstein is the epitome of someone who is 100% comfortable in their own skin and brain.  You don't see this very often.   

Edited by RemoteControlFreak.
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I don't think she's asexual, though being married to Kris Jenner might have scared any man away from any relationship with anyone of any gender, ever.

I think she's scared shitless of being a lesbian. It doesn't fit with her conservative values or her image of what a real woman is. The only women living as lesbians on the bus are Jenny Boylan and Kate Bornstein and they couldn't be further away from Cait in values and lifestyle.

I think she's equally scared of dating a man and having what would seem to be homosexual sex. Until and unless she has full reassignment surgery I don't think she's comfortable with the idea of a sex life. In her conservative mind the only normal sex is penis/vagina.

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Right. What I said does not conflict with what you are saying. The conflict is about how to act, not about who she is.

The 'continued sexual attraction to women' is and has always been disingenuous. That has been nothing more than affectation on her part for all these years. Her overwhelming need was not to be seen by the public as anything other than a very 'male-male'. She was never conflicted as to her sexual preference, just as she has no conflict now after her transition into female. The only difference is that the 'torn about conflict' is the struggle she's experiencing over whether to be honest about her sexual attraction to males, or to continue with the charade she's maintained all her life passing as a heterosexual male. She's always known who she is as far as both gender and sexual preference are concerned. The only thing that's different now is whether she's ready to disclose that fact or not and thereby risk the exposure all those years of pretense. She is very reluctant, to show the world that Bruce Jenner wasn't really the man who for most of his life had so aggressively had been driven to prove his masculinity.

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I loved Candis Cayne when she was in Dirty Sexy Money. I would much rather watch a show just about her.

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Here's one that will perhaps boggle the mind for a little while and I really didn't know where else to post it. Perhaps this has already been posted somewhere in this forum under another category. It's regarding Zackary Drucker.

 

Most will agree that Zackary Drucker is the calm voice of reason in this group of 'bus-traveling transgender' people. She's calm, articulate and very knowledgeable. The relationship that Zackary has with Rhys Ernst is quite unique. Zackary was born to, in her own words, "two really fantastic, progressive, educated parents." It was to their credit that Zackary has been comfortable enough with her gender reassignment to retain her given birth name. Also to their credit is the fact that Zackary is very confident and comfortable with her gender reassignment. I like Zackary the best out of all the others.

 

The first time Rhys Ernst saw Zackary Drucker was in 2005 at a bar in the East Village. At the time, they were both aspiring artists. But there was one clear impediment to romance: Rhys had never dated a man, and Zackary had never dated a woman. “I remember thinking,” Rhys said, “if I ever dated a boy, that’s the type of boy I’d date.” Today, that consideration is not an issue. Over the last five years, Zackary has transitioned from male to female, Rhys from female to male.

So this all sort of takes my mind some time to assimilate and digest the fact Zackary and Rhys have both completed the transitioning of their birth sex assignment to that of the opposite sex and it is to that sex that they are naturally attracted to sexually. Since their sexual transition has been completed, does that make them a heterosexual couple since Zackary is now 'officially' sexually female and Rhys is 'officially' sexually male?

13TRANSNATION-blog427.jpg

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Caitlyn still retains the mentality many rigid right-wing fundamentalist conservatives in that she supports a party that discriminates against the LGBT community. In her old life, she was in alignment with those conservatives that sought to limit the rights of people whose religious beliefs differed from their own. They live strictly by the rules set by a religious right. The incident that illustrated that in this episode was when the management of the restaurant in Tulsa, Oklahoma denied the filming with cameras only after management discovered it was for the show 'I Am Cait'.  Prior to having that information, the manager was willing to accept the camera crew in the restaurant. This is an important moment in this episode and it's a prime example of conservative thinking, particularly in that part of the country, the 'bible belt'. I wonder if Caitlyn Jenner was there with the others if that restaurant manager would still deny them access to film in his restaurant or if Caitlyn's 'fame' would encourage him to accept the group?

 

I think that for younger generations than the one that Caitlyn Jenner grew up with, it's very difficult to imagine that a man or a woman would make the choice to be miserable all their lives in order to hide what they really are. Sure, Caitlyn has come out and admitted to having the mind of a woman since she was a youngster, BUT (and this is a big but), Caitlyn Jenner has no wish to divulge the fact that she has always been attracted more to a male than a female sexually. The problem with her admitting that she has been a gay male all her life is that she has gone through great pains to conceal that fact including marrying 3 woman and being the father to 10 children, six of them being biological children. Let me say it this way. A person's mind, the 'ID' the self doesn't change from birth. It's not a choice to be attracted sexually to either a male or a female and that's something that doesn't suddenly become moderated or changed. As the saying goes. 'It is what it is'. If you really think about it, by Caitlyn admitting now that she has a sexual attraction to men would essentially let the cat out of the bag with all her children. It would take a minute for any of them to realize that fathering them and being married to several women was the way that Bruce covered up his own sexuality and presented to the world someone that wasn't the real him.

 

I will use Caitlyn's own words in this episode to illustrate this exact point. In this one statement, Caitlyn Jenner summed up her entire life. Her biggest fear, her entire 66 years has been a lie. Admitting to being sexually attracted to men would certainly prove it in the eyes of her children. She had felt that the women, (all the women) in her life would shun her and not accept her. Since the the acceptance and respect of others in her life have been of paramount importance, having them regard her negatively and see her as a 'freak' would be devastating to her very core.

"You don't grow up your whole life as being me and think that your biggest fear is that you would be thought of as an absolute freak and weirdo, and to be so welcome by not only by the trans community but uh, Glamour magazine....women in general." 

 

You believe;

"Fundamentally, she seems very torn between her continued sexual attraction to women, a fact that did not change after she transitioned, her desire to be a traditional woman who dates men, and her overall desire not to rock the boat."

 

I don't think that Caitlyn Jenner is torn in the least about who she is attracted to sexually, I only believe that she's torn about coming out and admitting it publicly.

 

I'm sure there's a lot of pressure to develop this "will she date a man" question into a storyline.   The show is starved for viewers and needs something to re-kindle America's interest in this sideshow.

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Yep. Cis straight men date trans women and cis straight women date trans men. Gay men date gay trans men and lesbians date lesbian trans women. There are also cis straight women who read more masculine and straight men who read more feminine. Throw in some bisexuals while you are at it, too. All these people are out there dating right now as I type. The world has all kinds of variety.

ETA: It's also not uncommon for sexual preferences to shift during or after transitioning. So there's a chance the Cait is still figuring things out.

Oh, and is sounds like Zackary and Rhys were always a heterosexual couple, since one identifies as male and the other identifies as female. (Interestingly enough, their situation isn't unheard of either. I've read similar stories about couples discovering this about each other and then transitioning together. Which is kinda awesome in that you would have this built-in support system.)

Edited by Hamatron.
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Since their sexual transition has been completed, does that make them a heterosexual couple since Zackary is now 'officially' sexually female and Rhys is 'officially' sexually male?

Yes, if they choose to define themselves that way and it appears they do. There really is no such thing as being "officially" male or "officially" female.  

 

Getting a new differently-gendered drivers license might be the closest thing to some sort of official statement, but even the laws for this vary widely from state-to-state.  In Alabama, for example, a person needs a statement from a surgeon certifying that they have completed gender reassignment surgery.  But in Massachusetts all that's needed is a signature of a medical or "social service provider" certifying the gender identify. No surgical intervention,s or changes to the physical body, are required.  California laws are similar to Massachusetts and other more lenient states, so that's why Caitlyn was able to get a new drivers license without having undergone what's considered to be sexual reassignment surgery.  [source: http://www.transequality.org/documents/]

Edited by RemoteControlFreak.
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I don't know why I keep watching 'I Am Cait'

I'm only watching until her socially responsible "friends" (Boylan, etc.) give up on her and walk away from the show. After that it will be just another shallow Kardashian spin-off.

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When it comes to the Kardashian/Jenner family, I'm extremely suspect of everything. The appearance and 'support' of Kim and Kourtney are particularly suspicious to me. I know that this is a franchise, like Keeping Up With The Kardashians and they're probably compelled by a contract with Bravo to make appearances in I Am Cait. I'm not buying it that they're there to support Caitlyn. I believe they had little choice in the matter.

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Sorry, Cait, Bruce wasn’t “a very good person.”  When you presented as Bruce you were a jerk.  No big change there.

 

I wonder what it took to get the DMV to only allow Cait and her daughters to be there.  I have never seen an empty CA DMV.  They do mail you your driver’s license, so that was not a setup.

 

I suspect Cait is actually attracted to women.  Yes, she has married three of them and fathered many children.  She has never shown an attraction to men.  Now, she is sort of stuck.  As a woman, if she dates women, she can be considered a lesbian.  If she dates men, she is straight but in her mind she seems to have sense of herself as a man who would be dating men and therefore gay.  But being a lesbian does not feel comfortable for her either.    In essence it is her restrictive mindset holding her back.  Then again, if she doesn’t want to date at all, that’s okay too. 

 

I loved Chandi being willing to be shown mid-stage makeup.  I’ve been to The Baton and saw a terrific show.  At the same time, there were some major tensions between drag performers and transwomen in San Francisco a few years ago.  There are performers that are truly wonderful.  There are other who are quite misogynist and, as such, do not treat transwomen well.  For me, it is based on the individual. 

 

And now for my most shallow commentary – as Cait’s facial surgery has settled, it looks more off.  One of her eyes is becoming more closed.  Her lips look strangely pulled and he cheek implants are more noticeable.    I sense she’ll be tweaking it soon.

Edited by Muffyn.
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I loved Candis Cayne when she was in Dirty Sexy Money. I would much rather watch a show just about her.

She's gorgeous, funny and kind. What's not to love?

Although I was a little put off by her comments about Caitlyn interacting with men: she should not be so forward, she should hold back a little.

Candis just sent the feminist cause back 50 years. I remember my mother saying similar things to me when I was a teen in the 1960s. There were so many rules for girls back then. I thought we'd gotten past that, but here is a young woman giving the same "advice."

How about "you be you"? Caitlyn should be her honest self, and men will either flock to her or run from her. Either outcome is more organic than dated dating advice.

Edited by CousinAmy.
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The 'continued sexual attraction to women' is and has always been disingenuous. That has been nothing more than affectation on her part for all these years.
How on earth can you know this? Caitlyn has never said so, and she doesn't seem very interested in dating men now. If there's any affectation on her part, it's as others have said that she seems afraid to be seen as a lesbian.
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I wouldn't be so quick to consider that Bruce suppressed an attraction to men. Cait says she's open to dating men but she has only spoken about it in a sense that it would reinforce her own femininity. That doesn't mean there is a genuine attraction there. Perhaps there's more to it and she's not ready to share that. From what I've gathered so far, Cait is more interested in finding ways to empower her femininity and despite the façade of a bus tour, I think she has glamourized what it means to be a woman and identifies her femininity with mainly that aspect (hair, makeup, clothing). She will never truly understand the challenges that women face or what the transgendered community faces because her fame and money will always provide that cushion that others do not have the luxury of. Being more aware and actually embracing and making a difference are not the same thing. So far, I see Cait doing the former, not the latter.

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How on earth can you know this? Caitlyn has never said so, and she doesn't seem very interested in dating men now. If there's any affectation on her part, it's as others have said that she seems afraid to be seen as a lesbian.

 

'How on earth' can any one of us 'know' anything regarding either Bruce Jenner or Caitlyn Jenner? The simple answer is that my own knowledge is based on evidence plus opinion. The indirectly evident gives some basis of claiming the directly evident to be the basis of my own knowledge. What has been indirectly evident in the past is that Caitlyn has had three unsuccessful marriages to women. What has been directly evident is the fact that Caitlyn herself has clearly stated that she would prefer to date men.

 

With that being explained, I will stand by my opinion about Caitlyn's sexual proclivities. The fact that she faces cameras and essentially 'the entire world' with whatever she says or does on camera only complicates it further for Caitlyn Jenner. This is a person that has hid her true self for 65 years and just because she's had facial reconstruction, hormone supplementation and breast augmentation does not alter or change her brain one iota from what it has been since childhood.

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And now for my most shallow commentary – as Cait’s facial surgery has settled, it looks more off.  One of her eyes is becoming more closed.  Her lips look strangely pulled and he cheek implants are more noticeable.    I sense she’ll be tweaking it soon.

She looks awful. That must be what happens when you change your entire face at the age of 65. I can not stand that she can't close her mouth and the way she chews her food. Something went awry there.  I can't figure out if she is wearing wigs or extensions or what is going on with her hair because as Bruce the hair was always thin and fried. 

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The parts of the show where Cait was absent were a breath of fresh air. I am starting to become a little bothered by Jenny Boylan, though. She truly is humorless about being transgender, perhaps with good reason given her history. Kate Bornstein is so much more open about it, which makes the show much more "approachable" from the perspective of cis people who are watching and trying to get a sense of what being transgender is all about. I find Jenny to be quite engaging when she is letting loose a bit and going outside her norm (like riding the bull, which was a LOL moment), but when she is going into heavy discussion about what it means to be transgender and/or female in today's society, she is a little too professorial and it reads a bit condescending. 

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Ok guys let's try to remember that we are all entitled to our opinions & that we're here to snark on the show, not each other.

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I can not stand that she can't close her mouth and the way she chews her food. Something went awry there. 

This is how all the Kardashians eat, unfortunately for Caitlyn, she gets all her how to look & how to act as a female ideas from them & it's ugly.

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I have never watched KUWTK (other than clips on The Soup - RIP) -- and after tonight I understand why.  WTF is with these people?  A gang at the drivers' license center, but no one at her award show?  (hee) 

Well it's not like it's a real award. It's a fake award that Caitlyn's handlers (as usual) traded favors for.

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I've reached the breaking point with Caitlyn and don't know why I'm watching this show other than seeing the rest of the ladies but I'm growing tired of Jenny Boylan's insistence that her opinion is the only one worth listening to. I don't like that Kate uses the t word either.

On another note; I have so many issues with Caitlyn most especially her Republican leanings and focus on her looks not to mention her constant use of the word girls to describe the women in her orbit but I do wish everyone would stop mis-naming and mis-gendering her because it's a slap in the face to all transgender people.

Also the correct term is transgender or trans people not transgenders or transgendered.

I wish the Wachowski sisters (Lana and the newly out Lilly) weren't so private but I understand their reasoning but they would be much better spokespeople for the white transgender female community. Caitlyn is a joke and embarrassment to the entire LGBT community.

Edited by maraleia.
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her constant use of the word girls to describe the women in her orbit

The really annoying thing is her saying MY girls, MY little Chandi, etc. Does anyone else find this extremely condescending? Almost like these women wouldn't exist without Jenner. Really bugs me.

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The really annoying thing is her saying MY girls, MY little Chandi, etc. Does anyone else find this extremely condescending? Almost like these women wouldn't exist without Jenner. Really bugs me.

Perhaps Caitlyn hasn't achieved object permanence yet so to her they don't exist when she can't see them.  No? 

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LOL!

 

ETA: I think it's related to paternalism.

Edited by Starchild.
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