Maddie Brown: Seeking a One-Woman Man

A thread to discuss Maddie, her romances, and her religious exploration!  If you have a good name idea, post it here, and I'll pick one and edit the thread title.

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She can attend church for her personal edification if she wants, but it won't affect the fate of her soul. She can't make it to the top heaven unless she's a member.

I'm fascinated by this. So what are her choices now? Does she just accept that fact that she's not going to heaven? Or does she join another church and try to get in by following their "procedure?"

Topic Title: Maddie: No Celestial Kingdom For You

Edited by VoteForSummer.
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Well, if she believes in the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith's revelations, then she can't just switch to another church. She probably won't lose her faith in those things just because of the LDS church (IMHO) acting like a self-interested, worldly corporation.

 

Most of the LDS churches believe that almost everyone goes to a good heaven. Only murderers -- and Mormon apostates -- go to Hell. But you can earn your way up to higher heavens, where you can be married forever, through church membership and ritual.

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I wonder if she could join one of the more liberal offshoots like Community of Christ.

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I'm a longtime lurker, but I just had to sign up for this.

 

"I'm Maddie as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore!"

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What's the story with this guy who's so much older? How did she meet him and how long have they been together?

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What's the story with this guy who's so much older? How did she meet him and how long have they been together?

He was Curtis's brother-in-law (Curtis being Kody's younger brother who died a couple of years ago). So, a sort of shirt-tale relative, as we say in my family. He's about 8 years her senior and she's probably known him since she was a kid.

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Maddie - my man can marry just one woman and not want more and more

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My understanding is that if the LDS won't accept her, she can't get married at the Temple, won't get the wedding she wants. And she might have a bunch of future Inlaws with their own expectations of what the wedding will be like.

When my first in-laws got married in 1951, they weren't allowed to be married in the Catholic Church because they weren't both Catholic. They got married in the rectory with just a handful of witnesses. ( the rule was changed later that year) You can imagine what a disappointment that would be for someone who has always dreamed of a big church wedding. So this decision by the LDS might be putting the whole wedding on hold.

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Of course, none of Maddie's family would have been allowed at the Temple wedding either.  I know people who have had the Temple wedding, then a huge reception where they had a wedding "reenactment" for those who couldn't go.  Can you imagine the Browns, though, if they weren't allowed to attend their child's wedding?  Persecution against polygamists!!!

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A LDS member can get married in a civil ceremony like anyone else.  Some bishops can conduct a wedding also. 

 

To be sealed in the temple, you must be a baptized member for at least a year, in good standing, go through interviews etc. You can be sealed in the temple and then have another ceremony afterwards including family etc. Reception, party and all fun stuff. 

 

I was sealed in the temple a few years ago; I'm a convert. I was married in a Protestant church.

 It isn't a "wedding' like you think. It's a brief religious ceremony. It's meaningful to a LDS member but it is not a secret wedding with a bridesmaid and best man and music and flowers etc. Unless you are a member and truly believe in being sealed, it's pretty boring. Bride, groom, sealer. Covenants. Done. Bye-bye. Go outside for pictures and reunite with family/friends who couldn't attend and are waiting downstairs. 

 

As for baptisms for the dead, that is a really bad word choice.  It is a proxy baptism performed in the name of a deceased person. There are rules about getting permission from family if the person has a living relative...I'm sure that was enforced after people complained etc. 

You are in NO WAY converting anyone.  LDS believe that the spirt world is alive like the earthly world. So when jesus said to take the Gospel everywhere, the LDS take it to the other side of the veil also...

A (LDS) person will stand in for the deceased.  I have done some of my deceased family. My parents.  They died before I converted.  I have no idea if my mother would want to convert but I am offering her the chance to accept it.  She is free to decline. I guess I will find out when I pass away and meet up with her again. 

 

Maddie is probably not worried about getting to heaven because she was baptized in her AUB church and I'm sure that counted, in her mind. I assume she wants to convert so her and the boyfriend can be LDS together. Or something.

Maddie can attend an LDS church forever and never convert. I have numerous people in my church who have never been baptized and attend every Sunday with family for years and years. And there are some who were baptized and never went through the temple and that's common also. That's why I'm not sure what is Maddie's motivation. If I were her, I would just happily attend every Sunday and take some time to figure it all out. Maybe the boyfriend's family is giving them a hard time? I don't understand the big rush to get baptized and all the drama with this. They can't have a temple sealing for a MINIMUM of a year anyway.  Most people take a few years to go through the temple after baptism.  It sounds mixed up to me. 

 

Sorry this got disjointed. I was trying to answer a few questions from the other thread. 

Edited by Marigold.
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^^^@Marigold--thank you for the insight into the LDS Church--I found it very interesting and it answered many questions! 

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I don't know if this has been addressed yet, but if Maddie appears on the show, she would be as an adult on the payroll- hence, Maddie would be getting paid by a show that well, whether it promotes or decries polygamy is debatable depending on how one sees the show- but bottom line, they can't have tithing money coming in from something that has to do with that , unless they finally just own it and be like yes, reach down far enough in the church and almost everyone not a convert has plyg somewhere because it seems the church is as much of a 'culture' as it is a religion-  anyway back to the TLC plyg payroll problem- I would think that would be more of a problem image wise than if they were to be 'it's cool, we don't judge where you came from, you can still love your family and not renounce them or have to not see them'...

if that stuff is not the case, then it's something they wanted her to do, like not appear on the show, not like they forbid her to see the family or even hang out with them, but maybe they see hypocrisy w/appearing or getting paid re the plyg lifestyle show- although there is irony there, as they can't deny it's part of their roots too- sure, one they left behind but so did she.

 

So I'm thinking they are afraid of the image thing should she continue to be contracted or appear on the show, get paid etc., that it might incense other members and cause more drama for them with religious fence-sitters, media, higher-ups, whomever. It seems like if Maddie herself doesn't want to follow in the plg lifestyle that should be good enough, so there's something else, but maybe they don't want to say, hey choose TLC or us and make that public.

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I'm sorry, but if any of it is true and they're so desperate for recruits that they're co-opting the dead, it's all kinds of ridiculous that they turned her down. Unless of course she announced she wanted to keep the polygamy option open.

Do they only glom on to the good dead people, or are they going after anybody...hey, Ted Bundy's dead, right?

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There are such glaring differences between Christianity and Mormonism that it is quite understandable why Maddie will not fit in any other church.

1. Christians are prohibited from calling up the dead in Deuteronomy 18:11 and Leviticus 19:31. The word "conjure" in archaic usage meant "swear with" and was more like consult or conspire. It is impossible to offer Baptism to the dead without doing this. If you are talking to the dead to convert them, you are violating this admonition.

2. Christians do not believe in marriage in Heaven. Jesus explained this in Matthew 22:30 and Mark 12:25. No marriages in Heaven. In fact, in the non-canonical Gospel of Thomas, Jesus explained what He meant by "we will be like the Angels" we will not have gender. No males, no females. And no sex. (Those 72 virgins the Muslim jihadists are going to get are probably goats. )

3. Christians believe that Jesus' ministry to mankind was complete and perfect. When He recited Psalm 22 on the Cross, He ended with the final verse: it is finished, It is complete, He has saved His people. Mormons believe Jesus reappeared much later in North America, for a do-over, and deny the perfection of what had already been accomplished.

4. Christians believe that salvation is through faith in Jesus, period. (Deeper discussion of works, grace, predestination don't apply here.) This goes for both males and females. Mormons believe it is insufficient for women, who must also have the approval and assistance of a husband. This is why she is in such a hurry to get married, and examine why Kody's wives will not leave him. It also explains why the women of the FLDS tolerate being reassigned to other husbands when their husbands fall from favor. If husband number one isn't going to Heaven, they've got to be sealed to a different husband who is going, otherwise they'll never get there. It's a sad situation for Mormon women who don't have husbands.

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I don't know if this has been addressed yet, but if Maddie appears on the show, she would be as an adult on the payroll- hence, Maddie would be getting paid by a show that well, whether it promotes or decries polygamy is debatable depending on how one sees the show- but bottom line, they can't have tithing money coming in from something that has to do with that , unless they finally just own it and be like yes, reach down far enough in the church and almost everyone not a convert has plyg somewhere because it seems the church is as much of a 'culture' as it is a religion- anyway back to the TLC plyg payroll problem- I would think that would be more of a problem image wise than if they were to be 'it's cool, we don't judge where you came from, you can still love your family and not renounce them or have to not see them'...

if that stuff is not the case, then it's something they wanted her to do, like not appear on the show, not like they forbid her to see the family or even hang out with them, but maybe they see hypocrisy w/appearing or getting paid re the plyg lifestyle show- although there is irony there, as they can't deny it's part of their roots too- sure, one they left behind but so did she.

So I'm thinking they are afraid of the image thing should she continue to be contracted or appear on the show, get paid etc., that it might incense other members and cause more drama for them with religious fence-sitters, media, higher-ups, whomever. It seems like if Maddie herself doesn't want to follow in the plg lifestyle that should be good enough, so there's something else, but maybe they don't want to say, hey choose TLC or us and make that public.

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Maddie tweeted

 

 

Caleb is a devout Christian and we are not a part, nor will we be, of the LDS (Mormon) church.

which makes me think she and Caleb are going the traditional Christianity route. That might not be the case--Mormons do consider themselves Christians--but it seemed like odd wording if they were staying in Mormonism (LDS or not).

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I agree it is probably her appearances on the show that the LDS will not tolerate. She is probably being asked to give up her income from the show and since, as Kody says, she might have to get a "jooobbb" and earn an honest living, that might be just too much to ask

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I'm sorry, but if any of it is true and they're so desperate for recruits that they're co-opting the dead, it's all kinds of ridiculous that they turned her down. Unless of course she announced she wanted to keep the polygamy option open.

Do they only glom on to the good dead people, or are they going after anybody...hey, Ted Bundy's dead, right?

Oh yes, virtually every famous dead person has been baptized multiple times, and that even includes people like Hitler. Ted Bundy joined the LDS church in his lifetime, so I'm not sure where that leaves him.

 

It's not really done as a way to add dead people to their list of recruits, though. I think Marigold above had a good explanation for what an LDS person feels like they're doing when they are baptized in proxy for the dead.

 

As for baptisms for the dead, that is a really bad word choice.  It is a proxy baptism performed in the name of a deceased person. There are rules about getting permission from family if the person has a living relative...I'm sure that was enforced after people complained etc.

You are in NO WAY converting anyone.  LDS believe that the spirt world is alive like the earthly world. So when jesus said to take the Gospel everywhere, the LDS take it to the other side of the veil also...

A (LDS) person will stand in for the deceased.  I have done some of my deceased family. My parents.  They died before I converted.  I have no idea if my mother would want to convert but I am offering her the chance to accept it.  She is free to decline. I guess I will find out when I pass away and meet up with her again.

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There is no way you can offer Baptism to your deceased mother without consulting her. And that action is prohibited in Deuteronomy and Leviticus. No talking to the dead, no consulting psychics and mediums, either. We could get into a discussion of the Long Island Medium, who I think is a phony, I have watched a few times and she NEVER tells anybody anything they don't already know themselves. So I don't know if going to a phony medium who isn't really communicating with the dead is a violation. Probably is, because you're trying to communicate with the dead, even if the person you hire for the job is a fraud, and you're not supposed to try.

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I know the Maddie storyline is heavily bound up with LDS right now, but we want to try to keep this thread about Maddie, and not go completely off into the woods discussing LDS itself. If your post isn't talking about Maddie's experience with LDS, but more about LDS in general, then it doesn't really belong in this thread.

 

You can take general religious discussion to Small Talk - it's a good place for discussion inspired by the show that isn't exactly about the show.  Thanks!

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I don't know if this has been addressed yet, but if Maddie appears on the show, she would be as an adult on the payroll- hence, Maddie would be getting paid by a show that well, whether it promotes or decries polygamy is debatable depending on how one sees the show- but bottom line, they can't have tithing money coming in from something that has to do with that , unless they finally just own it and be like yes, reach down far enough in the church and almost everyone not a convert has plyg somewhere because it seems the church is as much of a 'culture' as it is a religion- anyway back to the TLC plyg payroll problem- I would think that would be more of a problem image wise than if they were to be 'it's cool, we don't judge where you came from, you can still love your family and not renounce them or have to not see them'...

if that stuff is not the case, then it's something they wanted her to do, like not appear on the show, not like they forbid her to see the family or even hang out with them, but maybe they see hypocrisy w/appearing or getting paid re the plyg lifestyle show- although there is irony there, as they can't deny it's part of their roots too- sure, one they left behind but so did she.

So I'm thinking they are afraid of the image thing should she continue to be contracted or appear on the show, get paid etc., that it might incense other members and cause more drama for them with religious fence-sitters, media, higher-ups, whomever. It seems like if Maddie herself doesn't want to follow in the plg lifestyle that should be good enough, so there's something else, but maybe they don't want to say, hey choose TLC or us and make that public.

 

 

Algebra, you quoted what I said but you didn't write anything, are you agreeing that there's a chance it is something like this going on? Feel so bad for Maddie but I just have a feeling there's more going on with this not getting baptized thing than what is being shown on the show, that there's more to the story than just 'it's what your family does' or 'when they aren't so public'. As I said before and many others have stated similar, I'm not so sure that just by the show existing, it is promoting their lifestyle as much as simply chronicling it even if it is television format rather than what would normally be seen in a documentary- in documentaries there usually aren't all these little field trips and events that seem like they are manufactured for the show, it's just recording what is happening without all that other stuff that may or may not be created by producers, like vacations or Halloween parties or someone has a pool party etc.

         Of course we don't know if Maddie is tied up with trying to 'save the compound' on the Cult de Sac, but we know she is over 18, legal adult, and she is appearing on the show here and there, so there likely is legal stuff tied up with that. That said, we don't know if it is the church or if it is the show who doesn't want to be mixed up with the other, each side might be thinking association with the other isn't a great thing, although we know at the time of filming at least, she has not disappeared from the show, so this leads me to think it is more something with the church, and it seems like the church has a lot of power there, almost like a long arm of church mafia said to her,

Hey if ya know what is good for your eternal soul, ya gotta stop hanging out  with and/or being on tv with Jimmy Batts, and taking his money,cause it doesn't look good for us'.

 

Other than that whole debacle, I wish her and her fiance well and hope they figure out something as far as their life together. I know she said on the show, 'this is the only religion that matches what I believe'- but I mean, she's 19, many people believe things at 19 and then as time goes on and further exploration and investigation, that changes over time- and they develop a bigger worldview. Maybe she feels like if she isn't officially 'all the way' accepted into the church, somehow that will affect her opportunities or those of her fiance if they continue to stay in Utah- I don't know how deep the reach of either being in the mainstream church is there as far as school, work etc goes there in Utah but it is likely pretty deep. That would really suck if she were to be denied opportunities because of lack of affiliation, pretty sure employers are not 'supposed' to judge on things like religion, marital status, etc., but that is how it is 'supposed' to be, not necessarily how it is in the real world.

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There is no way you can offer Baptism to your deceased mother without consulting her. And that action is prohibited in Deuteronomy and Leviticus. No talking to the dead, no consulting psychics and mediums, either. We could get into a discussion of the Long Island Medium, who I think is a phony, I have watched a few times and she NEVER tells anybody anything they don't already know themselves. So I don't know if going to a phony medium who isn't really communicating with the dead is a violation. Probably is, because you're trying to communicate with the dead, even if the person you hire for the job is a fraud, and you're not supposed to try.

I understand your beliefs. I was a devout Protestant for many, many years. 

I was simply explaining my beliefs. I believe I can offer my decreased mother baptism. I am not consulting her, praying to the dead or talking to the dead. I am performing a simple act on her behalf. LDS believe that the deceased are aware of our actions here on earth so she is free to accept it or reject it.  Her choice...just like here on earth. I have no clue if she accepted or rejected...I will find out when I die, i guess. For me, it was an act of love to offer my faith to her. I can promise you, I am not communicating with dead people, conjuring up spirits or anything of the sort.  It's a simple baptism like you would normally see, just on behalf of someone.  

The LDS/Mormons have a very different view of heaven, which is what initially attracted me to them. 

And every denimination interprets Bible verses differently.  We have additonal LDS scriptures (book of Mormon and Doctrines & Covenants) that support proxy baptisms.  LDS do not go to mediums, psychics are anything related to that. 

Religion is subjective...there are many different religions and we all think we are right or we wouldn't have chosen that religion. If you're happy with your faith, I'm happy. I wouldn't even bother to discuss my faith but since there was some conversation on Maddie and her supposed conversion, so I thought I would offer some insight especially since I am a convert.  Too bad the Browns don't do this because I know we would all love to hear it.

 

Whoever mentioned Maddie getting paid from Sister Wives, that is probably it!   If she is getting a paycheck from a show supporting polygamy, then that could be a problem.

Her tweet was kinda weird though. First (I thought) she was converting because her boyfriend is LDS and that tweet sounds like he was never LDS.  The whole thing was probably a story line.  

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I will take any further off topic LDS Mormon talk over to small talk. 

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Her tweet was kinda weird though. First (I thought) she was converting because her boyfriend is LDS and that tweet sounds like he was never LDS. The whole thing was probably a story line.

Someone said that might have been a different boy? That there was an LDS boyfriend that caused Janelle to ask if this was because of him but this guy is someone different, maybe.

Since he seems at least tenuously connected to AUB and is currently living in Billings Montana it might be unlikely that he is LDS, or if so then he is/was also a convert. But Maddie going from tenuously AUB to potential LDS to mainline Christianity (presumably some form of protestant) is interesting.

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Sadly, I think Maddie has inherited the Inability-to-Remember-the-Lies gene from her idiot parents.  They are forever changing the story to fit the occasion and/or the TLC prescribed story line.  So the tweets may be addressing today's perception of reality but may be in contradiction of last week's.

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Based on what I've heard/read about other TLC reality shows, family members don't get paid individually even if they're over 18. TLC cuts a check meant to be shared by the whole family. Again, that's just what I read, but I could totally see Kody putting the pressure on the older kids to participate in the show to keep the money rolling in.

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Based on what I've heard/read about other TLC reality shows, family members don't get paid individually even if they're over 18. TLC cuts a check meant to be shared by the whole family. Again, that's just what I read, but I could totally see Kody putting the pressure on the older kids to participate in the show to keep the money rolling in.

 

Yea this is the forever question about the Duggars. There the general consensus  is/was that Josh and Anna probably started getting their own paycheck when they moved to DC and started having their own show but everything else was into the Duggar family fund controlled by JB. Since none of the adult kids on this show have established themselves that independently in terms of storylines and episodes yet then I suspect all the money is in Kody's control.

 

Kind of makes you wonder if the engagement/marriage storyline is Maddie's attempt to be the first to have her own TLC paycheck.

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I understand Maddie's inability to just find another church. I have my own problems selecting a church, as I believe in consubstantiation but not transubstantiation, I believe in the Apostolic Succession but not Papal infallibility, I do not believe in predestination, dual dispensationalism, or salvation through works, just faith. It gets really complicated. Currently I attend services at a Roman Catholic Church but my previous marriages and lack of belief in transubstantiation present obstacles to my ever becoming a communicant. So I'm in the same place Maddie is with the LDS, going to services but never actually joining.

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Maddie tweeted

 

which makes me think she and Caleb are going the traditional Christianity route. That might not be the case--Mormons do consider themselves Christians--but it seemed like odd wording if they were staying in Mormonism (LDS or not).

I figured as much, because I think it was Curtis that decided that his family's religion wasn't for him and converted to traditional Christianity, so it does make sense that Erica and her family would be Christians too. If that is indeed the case, I can see why she would choose to attend Caleb's church instead of the LDS one where she can't be a member.

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She has banned children from the wedding. Are they going to show Robyn crying for 2 episodes because of it?

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Are they going to show Robyn crying for 2 episodes because of it?

 

Probably.  Need to find some "captivating drama" to keep us watching.  As if we haven't seen that 5 millions times.

 

Wonder that the age limit is.  Half the family could be sitting home.

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Wonder that the age limit is. Half the family could be sitting home.

I couldn't imagine Maddie not having Christine's children there given the special relationship between the two.

Maddie most likely doesn't want King Solomon and Baby Aerola taking any of her spotlight on her special day -- and I can't blame her. She's had to share Kody's attention her whole life. I'm sure he'd have Solomon on his shoulders during the Father/Daughter dance if he had his way.

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Maddie most likely doesn't want King Solomon and Baby Aerola taking any of her spotlight on her special day -- and I can't blame her.

 

Maybe it was a calculated move because she doesn't like Robin? With Robin having a new baby, she'd be the one that would most likely have to stay home. As an older child, Maddie probably helped raise a lot of those kids and she might just want a calm, adult event without having to deal with bored, screaming kids running around.

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I am wondering about Truely.  All the older children are mature enough to sit still but Truely is still quite young.  She might be excluded as well.

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Well, bless her heart, her registry is certainly modest.  No requests for  $500 cookware or $50 towels.

Edited by Kohola3.
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I don't know. I (maybe) could see her resisting the chosen two - though I suspect that's more me projecting than any reflection on her relationship with innocent children.. I definitely have trouble seeing her leaving out little Truely. The shade thrown at Christine by extension also feels pretty low.

If it is true, that's really very sad. Hoping it's made-up headline fodder.

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In any case, I think children are only being excluded from the ceremony.  I'm sure they will be allowed at the reception, along with the TLC cameras catching Kody's "cute" dancing with selected wives.

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Did she say banned from attending or banned from being in the wedding party? My sole semi-bridezilla demand for my wedding was not having a flower girl or ring bearer. We said we had two many relatives with kids age 4-8ish, and didn't want 12 of each to herd through the ceremony. The only people who complained were a couple of cousins who had TWO YEAR OLDS - seriously - they may look cute, but they're disaster 99% of the time.

 

I absolutely applaud Maddie for not allowing the Kody/Robin circus and their spawn to dominate her wedding day. It's going to be bad enough with AuroraBriana going apeshit during the bouquet toss - you know they will, even though they're way too young to get married. 

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On 3/11/2016 at 9:39 PM, CofCinci said:

She has banned children from the wedding. Are they going to show Robyn crying for 2 episodes because of it?

Probably.  You know she's going to make this as much about herself as possible.  And then Kody will try to guilt Maddie into letting him gallop down the aisle with Solomon and Ariella as the Ring Bearer and Flower Girl, and then jog back up the aisle, locks flowing, to retrieve her.  And maybe in a Duggarish move, he might demand that he gets to walk EVERY SINGLE ONE of his wives up the aisle, because having them walk with another man would be disrespectful to him.

Small anecdote, I recently went to a wedding where there were no kids, and it was so much fun.  The couple's families just don't really have small kids right now, so it was more coincidental but they just went with it and I kind of prefer it.  Weddings aren't really fun for small kids, and when small kids aren't having fun, they're getting into trouble.  Let Maddie have a day where she isn't responsible for anything except for enjoying herself, and being in love with her husband.

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On 5/2/2016 at 1:24 PM, truelovekiss said:

Probably.  You know she's going to make this as much about herself as possible.  And then Kody will try to guilt Maddie into letting him gallop down the aisle with Solomon and Ariella as the Ring Bearer and Flower Girl, and then jog back up the aisle, locks flowing, to retrieve her.  And maybe in a Duggarish move, he might demand that he gets to walk EVERY SINGLE ONE of his wives up the aisle, because having them walk with another man would be disrespectful to him.

Small anecdote, I recently went to a wedding where there were no kids, and it was so much fun.  The couple's families just don't really have small kids right now, so it was more coincidental but they just went with it and I kind of prefer it.  Weddings aren't really fun for small kids, and when small kids aren't having fun, they're getting into trouble.  Let Maddie have a day where she isn't responsible for anything except for enjoying herself, and being in love with her husband.

For the love of god, let it be her day.  But not in a say yes to the dress princessy way.  And I hope Janelle slaps the shit out of anyone that even SUGGESTS any if the following:

Flash mob dance

A video about how maddie was bad, but is now good

A rerun of Robyn and kody' s wedding.  We all know tlc will trot that out if at all possible

And last, but not least, on camera guilting maddie about the no kids rule.

I know this is tlc we're talking about, but she seems like a good kid.  It's bad enough that her wedding is being pimped out for ratings.  I hope her wedding isn't a complete train wreck.

Edited by toodles. Reason: typos
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On 5/2/2016 at 1:24 PM, truelovekiss said:

Probably.  You know she's going to make this as much about herself as possible.  And then Kody will try to guilt Maddie into letting him gallop down the aisle with Solomon and Ariella as the Ring Bearer and Flower Girl, and then jog back up the aisle, locks flowing, to retrieve her.  And maybe in a Duggarish move, he might demand that he gets to walk EVERY SINGLE ONE of his wives up the aisle, because having them walk with another man would be disrespectful to him.

 

You realize you may have inadvertently written the script for the episode featuring Maddie's wedding.  I can 100% see this happening, TLC owes you a writer's fee for this one!!!

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