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Bonnie Bennett: Witchy Woman

I kind of hate her character and sort of wished she had stayed dead. I'm an awful person.

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Being a long suffering Bonnie fan, I am STILL waiting for a significant story for her. So yeah, there's always Season 6. 

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I kind of hate her character and sort of wished she had stayed dead. I'm an awful person.

Haha!!! I don't know why (I love Bonnie, because... WITCH), but that made me laugh so hard.

Oh Bon Bon, what are we going to do with you?

I initially really liked the character. and she was funny in the pilot just chattering away in a morosely set show. She did not stay light long. BUT, I like that she is a David in a land full of Goliaths. What makes characterisation fun for me is when they have aspects of their personality that I could never have and I am impressed by them. Stupid or not, Low self-esteem or not, I think to be THAT loyal to your pseudo family (to me that means Elena + Caroline) is awesome and something so rare and under-represented that a lot of people were put off as the seasons progresses.

There is something that I have always wondered. Is her fluctuating presence on screen due to her scheduling? Because that might be one of the reasons why she has just not there for 2-4 episodes at a time previously.

Also the problem is the writing sadly didn't change much which is weird for a show on air for 5 seasons with more than 100 episodes. The fact that any changes in her demeanour are attributed to being (magically or otherwise) brainwashed or duped are too bad. Since season 1 I thought that ,while it would make me sad, it would be interesting to see her be a baddie. While she is not the main character, the fact that her woes and problems are always brought back to others diminishes her. Literally the storyline didn't need adjustments as much as it needed better freaking narration. The way you say something colours the perception of the recipient regardless of the medium. Otherwise she could have been a cool character you are happy to see when they do appear and miss when they're gone instead as pointing it out as an inconsistency.

The writing and the acting should be mutually supportive and help to elevate the story. It feels like they have yet to lock on KG's style, strengths and weaknesses. I feel like they are not in control of the reception of the character, bad or otherwise. I think that when they give her material she enjoys she is great. In the episode where Markos escapes, she was supposed to be in excruciating pain and it felt wrong. And later when others passed through I was wincing, so it's probably not that she is incapable, more like they haven't played to her strengths as much as possible. She also obviously has had other projects so maybe consistency and continuity is less solid? Pure speculation, I like her but I don't want to only "blame" one side. The whole show has been less fun lately so I feel for her. I said in an other post that all the actors in general seemed bored for most of the season with some highlights of energy.

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Yeah, I think it's just ND, IS, and PW who are on every episode. Candice Accola has the fewest absences after that group, and then everyone else is absent for around a half dozen episodes each season. I'm sure it's a budgetary issue, but sometimes those absences are really awkward.

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I kind of hate her character and sort of wished she had stayed dead. I'm an awful person.

Oh Lisin, noooooo! Et tu brute? :( Why so meh?

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Well, to be fair I wrote that waaaay before this season got "interesting" but I'm still pretty meh on Bonnie, I just feel like all she does is save other people, she never has a real story for herself. I'm actually really looking forward to this coming season because I am hoping they give her more to do beyond being a good little helper witch to the vamps. 

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That's fair enough, I do feel for Kat Graham as they never really give her anything to do and she's so strong with the spell casting and languages (I hear she speaks 4 herself) that it would be great to see her (Bonnie) do that for her own gain and agency. The show really treats her character terribly IMO. I haven't watched in many seasons since the triangle of doom ate the show.

 

If I were KG and the shoe were on my foot I would have walked by now, for sure.

Edited by slayer2.
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That's fair enough, I do feel for Kat Graham as they never really give her anything to do and she's so strong with the spell casting and languages (I hear she speaks 4 herself) that it would be great to see her (Bonnie) do that for her own gain and agency. The show really treats her character terribly IMO. I haven't watched in many seasons since the triangle of doom ate the show.

 

If I were KG and the shoe were on my foot I would have walked by now, for sure.

 

Actually if you watch the comiccon panel KG seems very pleased with Bonnie and sees her as strong and coming into her own. She was sweet with such kind words to JP that she almost cried.LOL

 

I can only hope since she already knows what's going on with S6 that Bonnie is getting to do something interesting where ever she and Damon are.

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Speaking of Bonnie Bennett, if you haven't seen the video they apparently played at Comicon, you are missing out on some great stuff from Kat Graham. Originally from the Media thread --

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRBycMf1F9o#t=268

LOLS... I cried of laughter. Especially the silent head shakes from PW and CD, and the sandwhich story. And the dance... priceless

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Speaking of Bonnie Bennett, if you haven't seen the video they apparently played at Comicon, you are missing out on some great stuff from Kat Graham. Originally from the Media thread --

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRBycMf1F9o#t=268

That, is adorkable and funny as fuck. Those two are wonderful together and Paul Wesley gives great deadpan. Awesome!

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That video is even funnier now watching after the first couple episodes of the season.... They did sort of end up on their own show.... and it seems most of the board likes it better. 

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That video is hysterical.  And I agree that it is even funnier now....especially since so many watchers have said they would watch the Damian/Bonnie show.  Lord knows, I would!

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We witch you a Merry Christmas we witch you a Merry Christmas we witch you a Merry Christmas in 20-14. Ascendants we bring from Damon's sear-ching. We witch you a Merry Christmas in 20-14.

We miss you Bonnie,

Signed,

Bamily

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My greatest fear when it comes to Bonnie these days is that when she inevitably comes back to the present Mystic Falls she'll go back to being a character with no actual characterization who's only purpose is to be a spell casting walking deus ex machina to just wish the problem away when the writers write themselves into a corner like she was before her death. I thought the writing of the show and Bonnie's characterization improved significantly once she died and the writers could no longer use her for this.

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I said something similar on the Fade Into You thread.  Bonnie is currently the star of every scene she is in and I bet she gets to be wallpaper again when she gets back.  She (Kat) was a terrible actress during season one, but has improve somewhat and is great snarking at Damon.  She has so much chemistry with him it will be a crime to ditch it in favor of Delena and Boremy.

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Ahhhhhh! lalalalalala! I strenuously object. Kat Graham has never been a terrible actress she has always been on par with if not better than the Paul Wesleys and Candice Accolas. On top of that she has chemistry with everyone, she's just been treated like crap because Plec doesn't know what to do with a non-white character and has given all her stories to everyone else.

This episode and story arc finally allows Kat to showcase her leading woman status as she should always have been allowed and she has been phenomenal throughout Mileage varies of course but IMO Kat has been slamming it out of the park from the moment she showed up on TVD. The progression of Bonnie from the scared little hesitant witch of season 1 to who she is now has been incredible, even more with shit writing.

Edited by slayer2.
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I loved Kat especially in this episode she did so great and it was heart breaking Im tired of Bonnie always sacrificing herself I want someone to sacrifice themselves for her at least once.

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So there's this Wetpaint article that proposes Bonnie and Kai becoming a couple. I don't know how that will work with Chris Wood's schedule - he's headlining a new show, isn't he? Otherwise, TVD has a rich history of pairing its leading ladies with reformed murderers so one can almost argue that Bonnie is way past overdue for her own romance with an ex-psychopath. 

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Ha, yeah, I think the show might have really gone in a Bonnie/Kai direction if Chris Wood hadn't gotten the new job. They did have chemistry, even if it was just more of a hate-vibe, but I kinda think CW might have chemistry with everyone on this show if given the chance. Now I think they'll have to wrap up this Kai storyline, so I doubt much will come of it. I'm okay with that, because, yeah, I don't need Bonnie to be with someone who tormented her.

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Please no.  Let's have one woman on this show stand up for herself.  Bonnie has always been the one with the clearest moral compass.  If she should succumb to the "charms" of Kai, it would sound very much like 50 Shades of Grey to me (though I should say I haven't read the book or seen the movie).  Torment does not equal love, though.  Doesn't take a genius to figure that out.  Stay Strong BonBon.  Damon, as evil as he has been, is where your heart belongs.  Go get him!

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Please no.  Let's have one woman on this show stand up for herself.  Bonnie has always been the one with the clearest moral compass.  If she should succumb to the "charms" of Kai, it would sound very much like 50 Shades of Grey to me (though I should say I haven't read the book or seen the movie).  Torment does not equal love, though.  Doesn't take a genius to figure that out.  Stay Strong BonBon.  Damon, as evil as he has been, is where your heart belongs.  Go get him!

Not sure how Damon is such a big improvement over Kai. If he could have been redeemed enough to earn Elena - and apparently, be worthy of Bonnie - then so can Kai. Plec also gave the 'Bonnie is a strong independent, incorruptible woman' line when she was turning down the Klonnie fans (Kol/Bonnie). In any other show, it probably would have made sense. But TVD is all about intense, passionate relationships with hot and dangerous men. Making Bonnie the exception by hooking her up with a string of unforgettable red-shirts and Jeremy - the guy who first cheated on her, then 'mourns' her by going on a sexing spree - isn't doing the character any favours.

 

Still, Damon/Bonnie would be nice. The chemistry is undeniably there. I felt very vindicated by Ian's interview - how he and Kat Graham's interactions were deliberately reduced because of their strong chemistry. But I won't believe in a million years that Plec would ever write one of her leading men ending up with Bonnie. 

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So Bonnie is/was supposed to be the most intuitive, sensitive, self-sacrificing and comparatively introverted one out of the Elena/Caroline/Bonnie trio, right?! Sometimes she actually seems more the happy/ditzy/bubbly one, but I gather she wasn't supposed to be...? Honestly, while rewatching earlier seasons for the first time since they aired I'm having trouble figuring out the female characters' distinctive personality traits---or if any of them have any :) They all seem sort of similar to me! I am getting why many like her interactions with Damon---she seems to see through him and 'get' him, even/especially the worst facets of him, while he seems to bring out her sharp, self-confident and empowered side. The actress is ridiculously gorgeous, and I do think she has nice chemistry with Ian Somerholder. I really don't care at all about her pairing with Jeremy, but then I don't ever care about anyone with Jeremy :) 

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As a Bonnie fan, I'd love her to get her own love interest and not be effectively cheating on her friend/sister who gave up her life for her. I'd be all over Bamon if Delena was over but it's not. Instead of recycling Damon's pasty ass, please find a hot new guy for Bonnie.

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That's a lousy justification. Elena was the victim of Kai's vendetta against Bonnie and Damon. She was the one who did the least to him and ended up paying the most. And instead of railing against Bonnie or blaming her, she accepted her fate gracefully. It's the equivalent of the innocent bystander who took the bullet that was meant for someone else in a gang war.

There's nothing sacred about Damon or Elena but I don't know how I'm supposed to root for Bonnie as a character or buy any sense of honor from her if she goes from wanting to be around Damon to feel close to Elena to jumping on his magical dick, as you say.

It's not a Girl Code thing. It's a "Girl, the man is only available because his girl took a bullet meant for you. Also she's not dead so you're technically sleeping with her boyfriend, not her ex."

Elena never cheated on Stefan and Damon never pretended not to want Elena for himself. Bonnie’s never shown a hint of interest in Damon but now that Elena's out of the picture, she's throwing herself at him? That's unrealistic. And demeaning. Why make Bonnie 'manshare' for goodness' sake? There are more than enough hotties to go around. Every other girl gets to go through multiple guys who are all totally devoted to them while Bonnie gets to be Damon's 60 year bit on the side?

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Well, Bonnie is easily one of the few people on this show that isn't a selfish, self absorbed [insert insult here], and she is the only witch I can think of on either TVD or The Originals that doesn't abuse her powers for her own gain all the time, even if she instead does so solely for the benefit of others that's at least better than doing it just because she can.

 

In contrast, Damon is the type to get ridiculously obsessed with one girl for decades if not centuries at a time. He wouldn't go around cheating on Elena with Bonnie, so I'd say it would be a major character assassination for the two of them to get together in the interim.

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Kai killed the Gemini coven and his family because he had been planning to do so for almost twenty years. Kai hurt Elena because  he had thought up a new and inventive way to punish Bonnie. These are his literal words. Kai was paying Bonnie & Damon back for trapping him in 1903. It had nothing to do with Elena. She wasn't even in on the plan to leave him in 1903. Everytime Kai hurt Elena, it was to get back at Damon or Bonnie.

 

 

Elena is in this situation because Bonnie & Damon did not leave well enough alone. And for both of them to cheat on her while she's doing "their" time will be disgusting on a lot of levels, but that one in particular.

 

I don't count Bonnie as Kai's victim because she made the choice to lock him up in a prison world. She could have just left him alone, he was not hurting her. I actually liked the fact that the show allowed a villain to behave realistically and retaliate against the 'good guys'. That's why I called it a gang war.  Our 'heroes' often do things that are just as horrible as the 'bad' guys and get away with it. And too often our 'heroes' have got away with doing things to their enemies. For example, Klaus destroys the whole Petrova family, and haunts Katherine down for 500 years because she refused to roll over and die for him. But Damon, Stefan, Elena and Bonnie constantly thwarted him and his plans and he never lifted a finger against them. Even last night's episode, Damon, Bonnie and Alaric went looking for Oscar and when he overpowers them, he just leaves them lying on the ground and runs off, instead of killing them outrightly. He even leaves Alaric's vervain gun with him. That's unrealistic. The gang keep poking bears and getting away with plot immunity.

 

 

Kai acted exactly the way you expect a poked bear to behave. It was on Bonnie and Damon for poking him in the first place.

Oh, and I forgot to add: using the justification that the men are recycled is not supported by anything we've seen on this show. Between Elena, Caroline & Bonnie:

Elena - Stefan, Damon, Matt (pre-series)
Caroline - Matt, Tyler, Klaus, Jesse, Enzo, Stefan
Bonnie - Jeremy, Jamie.

Unless you count Damon raping Caroline as a 'relationship', the only 'man-sharing' that has gone on in this show is Stefan moving on from his finished relationship with Elena to Caroline years later. (Matt and Elena happened pre-series and Caroline suffered in that relationship because of that.) There's no reason for Bonnie to settle on Damon, especially since unlike Stefan, he hasn't moved on from Elena. I find it frankly horrifying that Bonnie will be sleeping with a man who will always be half-hoping that she croaks.

 

And as for Elena 'wanting to be caught'. I'm not here for slut-shaming Elena. And her dating Damon after his brother says more about Damon than about Elena. She has had exactly 3 romantic/sexual relationships on this show, just one more than Bonnie herself, but the way the fandom talks about her, she might as well have been the town whore.

Edited by doram.
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I agree that Bonnie and Damon are not the victims in Kais' revenge scheme, elena is.

Elena is most definitely making a sacrifice for her friend, since she has knowingly accepted her fate, a fate that ensures she will never have that human relationship with her brother and grow up with him like she craved.Elena reasonings for taking the cure start to become moot since she is going to be in Coma while all the humans, and her natural human life is passing her by.

Elena knew all of this and accepted it, knowing full well that if she said the word, Damon would have offed Bonnie in heartbeat, or not saved her life.

Bonnie is aware of that on some level, se realises that Damon is struggling with doing right by her verses having Elena back.

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I think Bamon has the support it does because of the chemistry Ian & Kat have in scenes together. I'm fine with them being BFFs with no romantic possibilities though. I think it would be altering the character of Bonnie to have her want to be with Damon given Elena's current state. If Elena had just moved on from Damon that would be different. Bonnie's always been one of the more principled characters on the show and wouldn't ever go there especially with Elena still alive and kind of together with Damon.

 

I'm just miffed that the show once again just throws together someone for Bonnie with no real build up or history. Bonnie/Jeremy was basically that and it's why I could never really get into it. You felt like the show didn't really care so why bother caring as a fan?

 

It's why I was pretty sad they nixed the idea of Kai. They've reformed so many villains in this series and there was so much potential there between the two of them. Even though it would have been pretty twisted if Bonnie forgave him. It was nice to actaully see someone fall for Bonnie first for a change.

 

Hell they could have at least explored Bonnie/Matt. The two of them have shared a lot of similar experiences because of their vampire friends. It would have been nice to see them both ride off into the sunset together at the end and have a failry normal life. Plus Matt has always also gotten the short end of the stick as far as relationships go. But I'm a bias Batt shipper since like season 1. It just would make so much more sense than

Enzo!

And I can't figure out why they won't go there other than that Plec doesn't think someone like Matt would go for someone like Bonnie. And I'm trying to say that as PC as possible because I don't want to accuse her of anything like that but her track record is.....

Edited by Couver.
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Finally figured out how to add quoted comments.

The one constant in the 7 seasons that TVD has been on the air is Bonnie's steadfast love for Elena, so I know she would never cheat on Elena.

Bonnie is not the typical Alloy teenage girl.

That's not true, Elena's been a shitty "friend" to Bonnie since she vamped. Elena even tried to kill her, I'd say their friendship has signicantly cooled since asshole Elena tried to eat her.

Also, Bonnie isn't responsible for Kai's psychopathy, that is an insane amount of victim blaming and if you want to talk sacrifice then EVERYONE can learn from Bonnie including asshole Elena about what real and true sacrifice is.

I agree that Bonnie and Damon are not the victims in Kais' revenge scheme, elena is.

Elena is most definitely making a sacrifice for her friend, since she has knowingly accepted her fate, a fate that ensures she will never have that human relationship with her brother and grow up with him like she craved.Elena reasonings for taking the cure start to become moot since she is going to be in Coma while all the humans, and her natural human life is passing her by.

Elena knew all of this and accepted it, knowing full well that if she said the word, Damon would have offed Bonnie in heartbeat, or not saved her life.

Bonnie is aware of that on some level, se realises that Damon is struggling with doing right by her verses having Elena back.

And just how has she made a sacrifice? To say that would suppose that Bonnie should kill herself for Elena to keep living. There is no sacrifice, Elena didn't voluntarily go under the spell. The spell happened and she's living with it, a sacrifice would be Bonnie dying (again) for Elena to live (again) which seems to be what you're suggesting is the natural order. Or Elena killing herself so Bonnie wouldn't have to deal with the guilt or the audience have to deal with the ghost of the annoying Elena hanging over our heads for a season. Nay, I say, nay!

Just so we're clear, there's no sacrifice involved in not agreeing to MURDER your best friend. Additionally, so we're also clear, Bonnie is a human with as much value and right to live as Elena (moreso I'd say), Damon not killing Bonnie is not a sacrifice. Elena has never made a sacrifice so she wouldn't know what one was.

Edited by slayer2.
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Well, the issue is not if Elena has been a good friend to Bonnie but the other way around.  And Bonnie has been a good and loyal friend to Elena.

 

Elena's humanity switch was off when she tried to eat Bonnie. And the switch was off because Damon forced her to turn it off. I know Elena's let her girlfriends down in many ways but that one is not on Elena. And Bonnie knew that because it's after that, that she sacrifices her life resurrecting Elena's brother. 

 

If Bonnie decides to suddenly sleep with the man that Elena was planning to marry and have children with, that would be OOC to me. Bonnie's not a skank. And I don't think the best way for her to 'stand up for herself' is by sleeping with another man who is in love with a ghost. 

 

Bonnie's not responsible for Kai's psychopathy but considering how many other psychopaths she's allied herself in the past and present - including her current Best Friend, Damon - it's an insane amount of hypocrisy that made her single him out for punishment. This is a girl that forgave Damon for murdering a pregnant woman and her entire family because he makes a certain kind of pancakes! And she couldn't forgive Kai after he almost died saving her life? I'm sorry, but it's not victim blaming when the victim is acting like a hypocrite. I know it's more for plot reasons than anything that most of the end of season 6 happened but in the long and short of it, Bonnie comes out looking very bad. 

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Sorry, but that's entirely on Elena, switch on or off, it was Elena trying to kill her best friend, the urge was there and she followed it. I think Caroline has more than proved how responsible you can be with your switch off if you choose to be. Elena's an asshole and frankly Jeremy's resurrection had nothing to do with her. Jeremy was Bonnie's boyfriend. It had a lot more to do with that than it did that it was upsetting Elena. Everything upsets Elena and yet everyone has lost more than her and all because of HER. Elena owes everybody and if that means Bonnie gets Damon well too bad. If she's loyalty fussy than she shouldn't have brother swapped to begin with. Nevermind all boyfriends between her and Caroline.

ETA I don't know how intelligent a conversation I can engage in when someone is using the word skank so we'll agree to disagree and just leave it at that.

Edited by slayer2.
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No, Caroline proved the opposite -  that no matter how much in control a vampire thinks she is, turning off your humanity switch is always a bad idea. For all her 'iron will', she didn't last for a week.

 

Yes, Jeremy came back to life because he was Elena's brother. You've forgotten that Bonnie and Jeremy weren't even dating again then. And Jeremy cheated on her less than a few months before. Why would Bonnie want to die for that? Even when they were dating, she's always treated him more like a surrogate brother than a man she was in love with. She gave up her chance to return to the real world to be with  Jeremy - for Damon to be with Elena! She expressly said she was bringing Jeremy back for Elena. It's the same reason why Bonnie's never tried to bring back any of the people she lost - her grandmother, her father, or try to give the cure to her mother. Her whole existence has revolved around Elena and keeping Elena happy. For her to suddenly turn around that, will be OOC. The whole point of her even hanging around Damon now is because of Elena. 

 

How does Elena sleeping with Damon when she was sire-bond to him, mean that it's Bonnie's job to punish her? Elena was practically raped by Damon - but it's somehow her fault? And something that she should be punished for, years down the line? 

 

Yes, a woman who inserts herself in a relationship between two people is a skank. I'm not afraid or ashamed to use the word. I'm not calling Bonnie a skank now but saying that that's what Bonnie will be if she dates Damon while he's supposed to be waiting to reunite with Elena. You, on the other hand, have victim-blamed Elena for her own rape, and somehow made the fact that she broke up with one guy (after half a year of them being technically separated) and chose to move on to another guy who happened to be his brother more Elena's fault that the fault of the brother who had been hanging around her for this exact reason for years. 

 

And I don't even know how any of this benefits Bonnie. What does it tell about her that she can't get a man of her own but always has to resort to someone's leftovers? First Jeremy, now Damon? Is it really a wonderful thing that Bonnie is always on the third side of a triangle with another woman's ghost? I mean, of all things I could imagine to reward Bonnie for her years of faithful service to Elena, is being Damon's 60 year old bit on the side, the best thing life can offer her? To be sleeping with a man who is always half-wishing for her to die? 

 

Yeah, I think it might be best to discontinue. I really don't understand what you're arguing for or against here:

that Elena was brother-swapping (which is just a more polite way of calling her another kind of skank) so it's Bonnie's business to 'pay her' for that or

that Bonnie is so pathetic that the best she can ever aim for in life is a man who half-wants her dead

or that Damon Salvatore's such a prize that you've somehow made him an innocent party in the whole sire-bond sex creepiness; and absolved him for wanting his brother's girlfriend in the first place; and absolved him of making Elena turn off her humanity; and let two women catfight over who gets to sleep with him the longest. 

Edited by doram.
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That's not true, Elena's been a shitty "friend" to Bonnie since she vamped. Elena even tried to kill her, I'd say their friendship has signicantly cooled since asshole Elena tried to eat her.

Also, Bonnie isn't responsible for Kai's psychopathy, that is an insane amount of victim blaming and if you want to talk sacrifice then EVERYONE can learn from Bonnie including asshole Elena about what real and true sacrifice is.

And just how has she made a sacrifice? To say that would suppose that Bonnie should kill herself for Elena to keep living. There is no sacrifice, Elena didn't voluntarily go under the spell. The spell happened and she's living with it, a sacrifice would be Bonnie dying (again) for Elena to live (again) which seems to be what you're suggesting is the natural order. Or Elena killing herself so Bonnie wouldn't have to deal with the guilt or the audience have to deal with the ghost of the annoying Elena hanging over our heads for a season. Nay, I say, nay!

Just so we're clear, there's no sacrifice involved in not agreeing to MURDER your best friend. Additionally, so we're also clear, Bonnie is a human with as much value and right to live as Elena (moreso I'd say), Damon not killing Bonnie is not a sacrifice. Elena has never made a sacrifice so she wouldn't know what one was.

 

That's not true, Elena's been a shitty "friend" to Bonnie since she vamped. Elena even tried to kill her, I'd say their friendship has signicantly cooled since asshole Elena tried to eat her.

Also, Bonnie isn't responsible for Kai's psychopathy, that is an insane amount of victim blaming and if you want to talk sacrifice then EVERYONE can learn from Bonnie including asshole Elena about what real and true sacrifice is.

And just how has she made a sacrifice? To say that would suppose that Bonnie should kill herself for Elena to keep living. There is no sacrifice, Elena didn't voluntarily go under the spell. The spell happened and she's living with it, a sacrifice would be Bonnie dying (again) for Elena to live (again) which seems to be what you're suggesting is the natural order. Or Elena killing herself so Bonnie wouldn't have to deal with the guilt or the audience have to deal with the ghost of the annoying Elena hanging over our heads for a season. Nay, I say, nay!

Just so we're clear, there's no sacrifice involved in not agreeing to MURDER your best friend. Additionally, so we're also clear, Bonnie is a human with as much value and right to live as Elena (moreso I'd say), Damon not killing Bonnie is not a sacrifice. Elena has never made a sacrifice so she wouldn't know what one was.

No one is suggesting that Bonnie should kill herself, or that Damon should murder her to get Elena back. Elena would NEVER want that, because she loves Bonnie, and Damon knows this. Lets just remember that Kai did this to Elena to get revenge on Damon and Bonnie, Elena is the victim here, none of this is her fault. 

My second point is that Bonnie was dying at the end of 6x22, Damon didn't NEED to murder her, he could have left her to die fair and square, if he had arrived a few minutes later, she would have been dead, but he knows that Elena would want him to save Bonnie (and she did), regardless of her own predicament, and so he did it for Elena. 

Thirdly, I believe If Elena WANTED that spell broken, Damon would not have helped Bonnie, he would have let her die. He would've been sad about it, but he would have done it for Elena, because he loves her above all others, and he knows Elena isn't that selfish, That is why I view the whole thing as a sacrifice by Elena, in return for all the times Bonnie has sacrificed for her- This was verbalized by both girls in the dream sequence in 6x22.

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That may be the show's view of it--and even Damon's--but for that to be true, you have to take the position that Bonnie's life is somehow of less inherent value than Elena's. I found that E/B scene very annoying (even while I was crying b/c of ACTING) for that reason. The idea that Elena is making a sacrifice by not wanting/allowing/encouraging Bonnie to die prematurely in order for Elena to be awake for these specific six decades, instead of the 60 years after that.... No.

 

The neutral condition is that Bonnie deserves to live her full life, no matter how that impacts Elena. Elena is not making a sacrifice by not actually dying and magnanimously not making Bonnie die either. No one is actually making a sacrifice here. Elena is the victim, yes and she is doing the right thing, and all her loved ones are suffering because they miss her, but no one is sacrificing for Bonnie. 

 

Even if the spell had meant that Elena were about to die, and the only way to save her would be to kill Bonnie, it STILL wouldn't be a sacrifice for Elena to die. If Bonnie weren't the target of the magic spell, then killing her is still killing her. "Letting" her live is still the neutral condition. If the roles were reversed, and Elena jumped in and said, "NO! You have to kill me, you can't let Bonnie die!" (aw, remember Season 2 Elena?), then THAT is a sacrifice.

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I fully agree with what you are saying about the neutral position, and that Bonnie deserves to live a full happy life as much as Elena does, because that is what 99% of rational beings would do, because killing your best friend, or asking someone to do it for you so you can live is just wrong. The status quo here is, Elena is sleeping and Bonnie is alive, so yes, remaining this way is not a sacrifice as such, it's more about acceptance of the circumstances.

However, the scene that changes everything is Bonnie (almost) dying. The neutral position here is that Bonnie should have died (and would have), and all things being equal, that would have been fairer since she was THE target, not Elena, BUT she was saved by Damon for Elena. Damon did not accept the status quo or neutral position of Bonnie dying, because Elena would not have wanted him to

 

The way I see it, Elena took a bullet for Bonnie this time, and in the process,  has lost the chance at a human life with her brother and human friends. That is a sacrifice IMO. It's not about who's life is more important, because the show isn't saying that, they are saying that Elena is most important to Damon.

It's a tricky one, for sure, and interesting to see how people view it differently.

 

I like the Bonnie and Elena friendship. Throughout the show, they have both shown that they would go to extraordinary lengths for each other, because they love each other like sisters.

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The Bonnie/Elena friendship is my favorite Bonnie relationship on the show. I always wished the show focused on the friendship between the 3 girls more. Elena's final scene with Bonnie was so sweet. And it was really touching because given what had happened it really was their final scene since Bonnie will for certain be dead when Elena wakes up unlike Matt or Jeremy who may just be very old. I thought both actresses knocked that scene out. 

 

I doubt the show lasts more than this season but I would be curious to see how Damon and the others would feel if Bonnie wanted to extend her life. We know witches can do it. Didn't that witch from that bar in the 20s do it? I don't watch The Originals but have they ever said how long a witch can prolong their life? 

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However, the scene that changes everything is Bonnie (almost) dying. The neutral position here is that Bonnie should have died (and would have), and all things being equal, that would have been fairer since she was THE target, not Elena, BUT she was saved by Damon for Elena. Damon did not accept the status quo or neutral position of Bonnie dying, because Elena would not have wanted him to.

 

I disagree that letting Bonnie die would have been the neutral position, and I also disagree that Damon saved her for Elena.

 

If Elena weren't under this spell, and Bonnie were in danger, Damon would have saved Bonnie. If Elena were dead instead of just put to sleep, Damon would have saved Bonnie. So saving her life IS the status quo/neutral position, in my opinion. It's not above-and-beyond. And letting her die when Damon had the ability to save her would have been tantamount to killing her. Damon also loves Bonnie, and even before they were good friends, he saved her even while bitching about it. That's what all of these people do for each other.

 

For the same reasons, I think it's reductive to say that Damon saves Bonnie because of Elena. Certainly, it would go against his interests w/r/t Elena to let Bonnie die, but he himself said in the premiere that it's not just that. It can be all things.

 

The way I see it, Elena took a bullet for Bonnie this time, and in the process,  has lost the chance at a human life with her brother and human friends. That is a sacrifice IMO. It's not about who's life is more important, because the show isn't saying that, they are saying that Elena is most important to Damon.

 

 

I agree that Elena is most important to Damon, and I certainly agree that Elena has lost something because of Kai. I just consider it a loss, not a sacrifice FOR Bonnie, when, 1) it wasn't an active undertaking (again, see Elena proactively giving herself over to Klaus in S2; forcing Stefan to take Matt from the car in S3) and 2) the alternative is the loss of someone else's actual whole life.

 

So, to come at it from ONE more angle before I give up--if Kai's spell had been "Bonnie is a breath away from death, and the only way to save her is for Elena to go into this deep sleep that she won't wake up from until Bonnie dies for real" and THEN Elena had stepped up and said, 'Yes, I'll do it!'" then THAT would have felt like "taking the bullet" for Bonnie.* That's an active step. Again, Elena's only options here were to accept the condition she was already in (status quo) OR to have Bonnie killed (via someone else). It's not a sacrifice to simply choose not to let Bonnie die prematurely, or to not save her when you have that capability (in Damon's case).

 

(*I almost wish it had gone that way, because that would have felt heroic to me. That would have been equivalent to the ways Bonnie has sacrificed for others. But this show didn't care enough about Bonnie or about Bonnie/Elena over the years to have really sold that.)

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The whole point of this discussion is the morality of Damon and Bonnie getting together while Elena was under the spell, and I think we can conclude unless we're extremely biased that regardless of whether we consider Elena's action a sacrifice, or a graceful acceptance of her fate, she got dragged into a war between Bonnie and Kai and ended up being the one that lost the most due to no fault of her own.. It would be an act of betrayal for Bonnie to get together with Damon. Also, I'd like to think that Bonnie is deserving of someone who won't spend the rest of the next 60 years half-resenting her and half-hoping she's dead.

Edited by doram.
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@ Carrie Anne.

I take on board what you are saying, and I think we agree in part, but where we disagree is on Damon and his motivations. Caroline Dries confirmed that Damon saving Bonnie was a "Gift" to Elena.

Yes, Damon would save Bonnie anytime, except if it meant Elena dies, because she is his friend. I would even go as far as to say Damon might even save Bonnie at the expense of his own life, because Damon will risk his life for those he loves, but he puts no ones life before Elena. Elena isn't dead, that is the whole point.

Do you think Damon would still save Bonnie if it meant Elena was gone (dead) forever, instead of just sleeping?

 

 

I agree that Elena is most important to Damon, and I certainly agree that Elena has lost something because of Kai. I just consider it a loss, not a sacrifice FOR Bonnie, when, 1) it wasn't an active undertaking (again, see Elena proactively giving herself over to Klaus in S2; forcing Stefan to take Matt from the car in S3) and 2) the alternative is the loss of someone else's actual whole life.

 

Loss/sacrifice, It doesn't matter, because Elena is in this position because of the Bonnie/Kai feud. No Elena didn't choose this, it was forced on her, it doesn't lessen the sentiment, it doesn't make Elenas' loss less important, because that would be reductive IMO. The whole point being, a Bamon romantic relationship would be gross under those circumstances, especially since DE are still together.

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It was a war because Bonnie had the option of letting things go but she decided she needed to 'one up' Kai even though by her own admission, she knew he had changed. He had saved her life in her birthday, which was proof he had changed, and she paid him back by trapping him in a prison world with the heretics. He was broken there and he snapped. Considering the fact that she went to 1903 to release a ripper who had killed 3,000 people, Bonnie had no moral standing to lock up Kai. That's what makes it a war because none of the parties were righteous. The Gemini coven were as much collateral damage as Elena.

Damon was tortured by a bunch of scientists whom he massacred but proceeded to commit generational genocide for decades after. But somehow we're supposed to buy that what Kai did was different? What did Aaran Whitmore or his immediate family ever do to Damon? Damon's actions spanned decades, some committed even during his 'happiest' times but somehow what Kai did in the heat of rage and fury was worse?

Also, remorse is such a ridiculous factor on this show. Caroline and Stefan paint Whitmore campus red with their humanity switches off. No one considers staking them. Lily eats out a man's head but she cries and that makes it ok. Damon murdered a pregnant woman and was so remorseful, he murders her fiance 20 years after. But he makes pancakes which earns him forgiveness? Let's not pretend there's any moral standard on this show. Bonnie's attitude for a long time hasn't been good vs bad but us vs them. If this was Game of Thrones, we all know she'd never have survived her actions in season 6.

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Caroline Dries confirmed that Damon saving Bonnie was a "Gift" to Elena.

 

Ewwwww, good to know CD is still disgusting. Odd that she was the one who wrote the premiere in which she made Damon say (when Bonnie asked if he knew how long three seconds are when you're in a near-death situation): "And by the third [second], I remembered you're my best friend and that if anything ever happened to you, I would lose my mind."

 

Yes, Damon would save Bonnie anytime, except if it meant Elena dies, because she is his friend. I would even go as far as to say Damon might even save Bonnie at the expense of his own life, because Damon will risk his life for those he loves, but he puts no ones life before Elena. Elena isn't dead, that is the whole point. Do you think Damon would still save Bonnie if it meant Elena was gone (dead) forever, instead of just sleeping?

 

 

No, I think Damon would kill anyone, including Stefan and himself, if it were the difference between Elena being Really Dead or not. So we agree. My point was that Damon would save Bonnie in ALL cases except that one. So saving her is the neutral position, given that Elena's death was not at issue.

 

[...] The whole point being, a Bamon romantic relationship would be gross under those circumstances, especially since DE are still together.

 

 

Sorry--I lost track of where this discussion began. I'm not arguing this point in response to the concept of a romantic B/D relationship at all, though I was in favor of it last season prior to the finale. For me, I only began to like Damon again (after two seasons of hate) because of his friendship with Bonnie, and that friendship was without question my favorite thing about S6, and Bonnie my favorite character that season. I saw that as a real, deep friendship, one that signalled to me an actual change in Damon--one that, importantly, had nothing to do with Elena--so I'm just reacting to seeing that relationship and Bonnie herself described in terms that render them both subordinate to Elena. Damon has (platonic) feelings for Bonnie that have nothing to do with Elena, and those feelings are at least as important in terms of why he wants Bonnie to stay alive as his giving a "gift to Elena." (Seriously, vomit, CD.)

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Ewwwww, good to know CD is still disgusting. Odd that she was the one who wrote the premiere in which she made Damon say (when Bonnie asked if he knew how long three seconds are when you're in a near-death situation): "And by the third [second], I remembered you're my best friend and that if anything ever happened to you, I would lose my mind."

 

 

No, I think Damon would kill anyone, including Stefan and himself, if it were the difference between Elena being Really Dead or not. So we agree. My point was that Damon would save Bonnie in ALL cases except that one. So saving her is the neutral position, given that Elena's death was not at issue.

 

 

Sorry--I lost track of where this discussion began. I'm not arguing this point in response to the concept of a romantic B/D relationship at all, though I was in favor of it last season prior to the finale. For me, I only began to like Damon again (after two seasons of hate) because of his friendship with Bonnie, and that friendship was without question my favorite thing about S6, and Bonnie my favorite character that season. I saw that as a real, deep friendship, one that signalled to me an actual change in Damon--one that, importantly, had nothing to do with Elena--so I'm just reacting to seeing that relationship and Bonnie herself described in terms that render them both subordinate to Elena. Damon has (platonic) feelings for Bonnie that have nothing to do with Elena, and those feelings are at least as important in terms of why he wants Bonnie to stay alive as his giving a "gift to Elena." (Seriously, vomit, CD.)

Well there lies the conflict. And yes CD can be be gross and literal and EWWW, and this is not the first time............ I'm looking at 3x14 but I digress, it is what it is I guess.

Damon definitely does have feelings and a respect for Bonnie, that has developed independently of Elena, loosely speaking, and vice versa, and this is one of the reasons I now enjoy her character more than the previous seasons in which I found her nothing short of annoying TBH.

I have no problem with Bamon being a badass friendship, both are loyal to the ends of the earth to those they trust, love and believe in, and I hope we get to see more development there, truly, as long as neither Dalaric or Delena are  casualties of that bond. I want to see them all become a dysfunctional but effective family, without a romance tainting it, is all.

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Damon is many things, both good and bad, but loyalty is not a value I'd ascribe to him. It's interesting really - it seems so common to condemn Elena when she left one brother for the other, even though her initial feelings were the result of a sire bond, but it's rare to find Damon get any criticism for the fact that he chose to turn a blind eye to his brother's pain when he did this (and the full year before that that he pursued her. And the century before that that he was sleeping with Katherine while Stefan dated her). Oh well.

 

Caroline Dries writes some of the best Bamon scenes, including the 3-second declaration in 7x1 so I don't understand why she seems to get undue flak. Plec is showrunner so any issues with plot/characterizations really just depend on her. And she's the one who wanted to kill off Bonnie at the end of season 5. 

 

I'd never have described Bamon as developing independently of Elena because I doubt the relationship would have even existed without her. Indeed, they've both independently declared that their relationship hinges on her. By Damon's own admission, he saw the worth in Bonnie because she let him rant on and on about Elena in the Prison World and then let him go back to her. Unlike Alaric and Enzo, and even Liv Forbes, whom he befriended in separate non- Elena circumstances. Even Bonnie sees him as an Elena extension, a way of keeping a part of Elena in her life.

 

Damon has so many best friends, all of which he treats equally shitty, it's hard to attach any particular value on one of them but it would make more sense for him to hook up with Enzo than Bonnie. Slightly OT: But I always coded Enzo as gay for Damon, then Stefan. Nothing about his serenading of Lily could hold a candle to the single-minded obsession he had for Stefan in season 6. I wonder how if any possible m/f relationship he'll be a part of will even be convincing. (Not saying more because of spoilers). 

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Caroline Dries writes some of the best Bamon scenes, including the 3-second declaration in 7x1 so I don't understand why she seems to get undue flak. Plec is showrunner so any issues with plot/characterizations really just depend on her. And she's the one who wanted to kill off Bonnie at the end of season 5. 

 

 

 

I never knew this! Did she actaully say that? Though it wouldn't surprise me. Her dislike for the character is sadly very obvious. I can't figure out why either. Kat seems like she's great. So glad it didn't happen since season 6 was a good one for Bonnie overall.

 

I agree about Bamon not being friends without Elena. Damon's relationships with the witches he has known were been terrible at best. Without Elena he'd probably just be using Bonnie for something with threat of violence or harm to someone she cares about. They needed her as that bonding point. Which isn't unrealistic. A lot of friendships start out that way thorugh mutual association.

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I never knew this! Did she actaully say that? Though it wouldn't surprise me. Her dislike for the character is sadly very obvious. I can't figure out why either. Kat seems like she's great. So glad it didn't happen since season 6 was a good one for Bonnie overall.

Yes, sadly. She tweeted about it a few months back, not long after the season 6 finale. She said at the time of the season 5 finale, she thought Bonnie's story had ended. (And when you watch Bonnie's last scenes, you really get the impression that she was saying goodbye for good). But Kat Graham convinced her that there was more story to tell. So Bonnie went into the prison world with Damon, instead of Damon being by himself. 

 

To put things in perspective, in the Season 5 finale, Plec resurrected Alaric Saltzman who had died 2 seasons ago and made him a series regular in the next season. He had been 'sent off' the show but Plec felt that there was more story to tell there. Enzo NoName was the least valuable player in season 6, but when people asked her why he was still on the show and not killed off, Plec said that the problem was the writing not the character and that she would do better. She sent off the Sarah Salvatore/Nelson character even though Sarah had a stronger connection with the Salvatore brothers and fitted better with this season's theme of family.

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Yeah, I don't dispute that Bonnie and Damon would never have been friends without Elena. They definitely wouldn't have become as close without being stuck in 1994 together, because Damon would never have taken his focus off of Elena for long enough to open up to Bonnie, even as a friend. But that doesn't mean that their friendship is enmeshed or intertwined with D/E's relationship. They are separate things. I think B/D solidified their friendship as its own thing over the course of last season, and now this one.

 

Or maybe I'm just sick of everything being about Elena, even after ND has left the show...!

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the show was about her for six years. Elena was the glue that held all these disparate characters together. A lot of them would literally be strangers, or might even have murdered each other several times over but for her presence. So I find it more realistic that she's still so relevant than the other way around. People seem to want to forget that Elena even existed which is impossible. I'm glad that the show keeps underlining the fact that Elena not only brought them, but keeps them together. It makes both their characters more consistent, especially Bonnie's, which has already been compromised in so many ways since the show started. I hope Dries sticks to her word and rules the romance out, permanently. The last thing that this show needs is another controversial romance. It has a lot of other strengths that it can play up to and I'm glad that so far, they seem to be doing that, and getting a lot of praise for that reason.

 

 

Meanwhile, to keep the post on topic (and change the current one), does anyone think there's any chance that Lucy Bennett or any of the extended Bennett family ever re-appear on this show? I remember in season 1/2/3, how the show would refer to Bonnie visiting Sheila's extended family for weeks (usually to explain away her absence). Perhaps now that the show is focusing better on her, they can explore that?  

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First of all, Damon and Bonnie being friends still weirds out a part of my brain. But that's another story.

 

the show was about her for six years.

 

Which wasn't always a good thing when she was actually there. It would be even less of a good thing now that she's not even around.

 

I've seen other shows that have tried to keep missing (and popular) characters present by mentioning them and building stories around them. And while this might make big fans of the character happy (which I think TVD is trying to do), nobody else ever likes it. And there's usually much relief when the writers stop doing it. And, in my opinion, those shows were much stronger when they didn't try to keep working in that character.

 

Elena was the glue that held all these disparate characters together. A lot of them would literally be strangers, or might even have murdered each other several times over but for her presence.

 

And I can think of many TV friends who met through another person (often the lead). But that didn't mean their friendship was based on that person. And, as a big fan of TV friendships (more than 'ships, actually) I really find that idea unappealing. I want my favorite TV friendships to be based on the fact that these people care about each other, not that they care about someone else, and that's what holding them together. Just no.

 

As weird as I still find the friendship between Bonnie and Damon, I also dislike it when people (and the writers, to some degree) try to make it all about Elena because I don't think it is. If it was, they would've become pals ages ago. Damon and Bonnie's friendship developed because of the experiences they had with each other, separate from Elena.

 

It actually reminds me of the friendship between Cara and Kahlan on Legend of the Seeker. (And here's a clip for anyone who doesn't know who I'm talking about.)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn2nhLdkcGU

 

Those two hated each other at first. (There were death threats, and actual attempts on each other's lives.) And they were only around each other in the beginning because of Richard. (In fact, one of his big fears was that they'd kill each other.) But Richard wasn't why they ended up becoming such good friends. That was based on them getting to know each other, and spending time with each other independent of Richard. If I had thought their friendship was all about Richard, I wouldn't have liked it nearly as much. Or at all, come to think of it.

 

So, while Bonnie and Damon's friendship is still a little weird to me, I certainly wouldn't want it to be all about Elena.

Edited by Bitterswete.
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