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S01.E07: What's In A Name? 2015.09.06

I'm also not being snarky, but I wonder what transgender rights are?  I don't want an opposite gendered person in the restroom with me, but that's not a Republican thing....and is it a right?  And I don't think anybody is opposing people getting the surgeries done.  

Very few things are "rights" that we express as those. A lot of them are inferred from things that were a lot looser in their original intention (for example, the "right to bear arms", which was originally simply about the right to have local militias that could oppose the government if they got out of control and tyrannical--a "right" that was originally simply a back-ended justification for the American Revolution and not about people having some "right" to do anything and everything with guns on a personal level).

 

Anything in the Constitution that talks about guarantying equal access and equal treatment is what's being interpreted here. Broadly, but that's the basis. And beyond that, I suppose it also goes back to the "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness" business in the Declaration of Independence. Which contains no laws, of course, but inspired a lot of what made it's way to later laws.

So when people talk about things like transgender rights, it's not about some codified base. It's about interpreting how the classic ones can be applied to better protect those people from discrimination. It's admittedly an imperfect application of the label "rights", but you can certainly see why (with the emotional weight of it) people use that label.

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By rights, I was talking about things like it being legal to refuse to rent to a transgender person, or hire them for a job. Or, it being legal to fire someone, refuse them a scholarship or admission to a school that someone else with their qualifications would get, or to refuse service at a public place like a restaurant, just because the people in charge don't like transgender people.

 

Without even getting into the bathroom and marriage and medical issues, which seem to be the ones most talked about, there are lots of other ways that LGBT people are discriminated against and prevented from equal rights to participate in society, and these become extremely serious when it's acceptable to refuse employment or education or housing or medical care or any other aspect of life, which is the case when non-discrimination laws are not in place and adequately enforced.

 

There is currently a famous case where the INFANT of two lesbians was refused medical care by a doctor because the baby had two moms. Likewise, it's not even only about whether people are for or against transgender people getting medical treatment directly related to transition, but there are cases of transgender people being refused medical treatment of other kinds because the staff doesn't like transgender people.

 

It goes on and on. Think about anything-- any aspect of society from joining the military to getting car insurance to renting an apartment to shopping in a store or holding a job or getting in a taxicab-- you could be denied those things and more, where non-discrimination laws are not in place.

 

So, when equal rights protections like ENDA (or discriminatory laws like DOMA) are at issue, it makes a big difference if your representative votes for or against, and I am pretty sure party affiliation has a strong correlation with which way that goes, even now.

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Well it's about laws, not rights really.  Or rather if it is about rights, it's not transgender specific ones but about normal universal ones falling through the cracks when applied to transgender people--or gay people, or black people, or Hispanic people, or female people, etc. Heck, there are still golf clubs with "No Jews or Blacks" rules that get away with it. 

 

The laws have plenty of loopholes that need to be closed so that ANY group can't be excluded simply based on someone's prejudice.

 

it gets tougher when it's about the application of personal service vs. the status of property. Property rights should be dead easy.  It applies the same to anyone. Similarly, the application of government services should be dead clear and easy (short of abuses, like lets say, some group of wackos declaring themselves a Church and demanding certain "rights" because of that). Personal service is the sticky one. Take marriage. It is now rightly the law of the land that two people of the same gender can be married.  But by the same token, a pastor of a particular church can bow out of being the one who has to marry them.  Whereas a government official, a county clerk lets say, shouldn't be able to (but note some have tried). 

 

The toughest ones seem to be things like the bakery that didn't want to bake a cake for a gay wedding. I hate that they feel that way, but given the fact that there is no absence of other outlets that provide the EXACT same service, this is where I start to get a little uncomfortable with the label "rights" being tossed around. Equal access rules might apply if that bakery had some kind of unique service (at least in that area), but if they don't?  They're assholes, but it's a hard sell to say they're actually denying a right.

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I'm also not being snarky, but I wonder what transgender rights are?  I don't want an opposite gendered person in the restroom with me, but that's not a Republican thing....and is it a right?  And I don't think anybody is opposing people getting the surgeries done.  

 

 

So when people talk about things like transgender rights, it's not about some codified base. It's about interpreting how the classic ones can be applied to better protect those people from discrimination. It's admittedly an imperfect application of the label "rights", but you can certainly see why (with the emotional weight of it) people use that label.

Protected rights vary widely from state to state.   Here is the Human Rights Commission's version - although I found two reporting mistakes in my state. 

 

http://www.hrc.org/state_maps

 

Here is another one by Lamda Legal that is  easier to negotiate:    http://www.lambdalegal.org/states-regions

 

Keep in mind that some protection from discrimination are based on sexual orientation (gay, lesbian, etc) and often do not include transgender persons.  

Edited by Cosmocrush.
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Just FYI on the bakery, those people didn't sue because the bakery didn't bake their cake, they sued because the bakery doxxed them and they were getting death threats because of it. Here's a good overview of what happened in that instance. The headline is click bait but the article is sourced and accurate.

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If you are interested in the legal issues affecting transgender people in the US, you may want to look into the Transgender Law Center.

http://transgenderlawcenter.org/

 

Discrimination in housing and employment is specifically called out in a few states; transgender persons are specifically included in the statues that ban discrimination based on race, gender, etc.  However, many jurisdictions do not provide protection to transgender people.  Recently the EEOC made a statement that they view transgender persons as falling under the statutes that protect people from gender discrimination.  This will most likely be battled in the courts in the up-coming years.  "Rights" are often decided by the application and interpretation of law.  If the EEOC statement stands, then transgender people, by federal law, cannot be discriminated against for employment.  Of course, there is always the law and the reality.  

Edited by Muffyn.
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So I'm from a family of golfers - they are ridonkulous.  They miss birthdays, anniversaries, holidays, etc. (not little things but BIG celebrations) because they "have to golf".  I'm dying to skip one of their special days one time and say, "I had to read a book."  :)  So I actually had no problem believing that while Cait was more than happy to upset her family with her transition, she wouldn't risk her golf membership.

Caitlyn Jenner can play golf at one of dozens of public golf courses in the Los Angeles area. Nobody cares if she's a transgender and she wouldn't even have to pay thousands of dollars every year for membership. But playing on a public golf course is not what a Jenner or Kardashian does. It's private or nothing.

She changed her name before the Vanity Fair article came out. What name did she use to sign her contract? She's also being sued for an accident she caused when she was known as a previous name. But now she is known as Caitlyn. And she never wondered if her name change was legal? Absurd.

I only wish she would have chosen a name that would be easier to type over and over again, like 'Kate'. I misspell it constantly.

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Maybe Caitlyn Jenner should reach out to Tiger Woods for some sympathy. I don't think she'd get it though.

In 2012, Tiger Woods was barred from the British Open golf tournament at the Muirfield golf club in Scotland. That's right, no blacks allowed to play golf there. There may be a long waiting list of transgenders waiting for membership at any of the snooty private clubs in Los Angeles, but at least the trail has been blazed for black golfers and thanks to desegregation, the color of a man or woman's skin doesn't prevent them from belonging to a private golf club. It may never happen that transgenders will be allowed to join a country club, no matter how much the annual fee is. Money doesn't buy everything.

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Maybe my meaning would have been clearer if I had said "equal rights for transgender people" or "civil rights for transgender people" instead of "transgender rights" in my original post.

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Caitlyn Jenner can play golf at one of dozens of public golf courses in the Los Angeles area. Nobody cares if she's a transgender and she wouldn't even have to pay thousands of dollars every year for membership. But playing on a public golf course is not what a Jenner or Kardashian does. It's private or nothing.

 

Caitlyn was reported heckled, presumably by another member, last October (with regards to the stories leaking on transitioning) on the green at her own fancy exclusive club.  I can't imagine the chaos that could ensue at a public course with the papparazzi.   There is a reason we don't see big celebrities on public courses and it's not about the course itself but the privacy a club can provide.  

 

I don't have a problem with Caitlyn spending hundreds of thousands on a membership she used daily but clearly they might have a problem with her; it's closed until December, it might be interesting to see if Caitlyn's membership might get an exclusive county club to change their outdated misogynist policies.    Or maybe she won't  feel the need to solo golf on a daily basis in this new chapter of her life?  Who knows?  

Edited by Cosmocrush.
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Maybe Caitlyn Jenner should reach out to Tiger Woods for some sympathy. I don't think she'd get it though.

In 2012, Tiger Woods was barred from the British Open golf tournament at the Muirfield golf club in Scotland. That's right, no blacks allowed to play golf there. There may be a long waiting list of transgenders waiting for membership at any of the snooty private clubs in Los Angeles, but at least the trail has been blazed for black golfers and thanks to desegregation, the color of a man or woman's skin doesn't prevent them from belonging to a private golf club. It may never happen that transgenders will be allowed to join a country club, no matter how much the annual fee is. Money doesn't buy everything.

 

This did not happen and nothing about the statement is true.

 

Martha Burke, the most outspoken proponent for allowing women to be members at Augusta National Golf Club, where the Masters is played, wrote a fictional piece stating this in the Huff Post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/martha-burk/muirfield-men-only_b_3607238.html) to make a point about discrimination because Muirfield, the site of the upcoming 2013 British Open, does not accept women members. Women are allowed to play as guests but cannot join the club.

 

But it's fiction.

 

FACTS:

 

The 2012 "British Open" (correct name: The Open Championship) was not played at Muirfield. It was played at Royal Lytham & St Annes Golf Club, which accepts members of all races.

 

Tiger Woods participated and finished tied for 3rd.

 

Muirfield accepts members of all races.

 

Now, with regard to Caitlyn and her membership at Sherwood Country Club, she did not seem worried that the club would not accept her. She's already a member and just reapplying to play at the par-3 course while the main course is closed for renovations.  She was worried that presenting herself there as Caitlyn would create an uncomfortable situation for her and for the other members.   

Edited by remotecontrolfreak.
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Cait is allowed to live however she wants.  She doesn't have to prove anything to anyone.  I'm floored that she lets these women on the show constantly lecture her, and it seems like the world of trans activism is a very exclusive, judgmental world.  It can get very frustrating as a cis person to watch this show and just feel exhausted by the sheer amount of hoops people want Caitlyn to jump through to earn her stripes.  The proof will be in the pudding after the season is over, but like it or not, Caitlyn is the most famous trans person in history and is helping the community just by existing.  She doesn't deserve to be praised for that, but she also doesn't deserve to be constantly harangued for not fitting into the mold of who these women think the ideal trans role model is.  Cait is trying, and on the other hand, she's 65 and probably doesn't give a fuck, she's got limited time and wants to focus on herself.  She's earned it.

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Caitlyn was reported heckled, presumably by another member, last October (with regards to the stories leaking on transitioning) on the green at her own fancy exclusive club.  I can't imagine the chaos that could ensue at a public course with the papparazzi.   There is a reason we don't see big celebrities on public courses and it's not about the course itself but the privacy a club can provide.  

Celebrities play on public courses all the time.  Public does not necessarily mean a $10/round municipal course.  Public courses include Pebble Beach in Monterey,  TPC Sawgrass (site of the Players Championship),  St. Andrews in Scotland, etc.  

 

The greens fees for these courses are in the hundreds of dollars a round and decorum is expected.  Any paparazzi who show up would be quickly shown the gate.  

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Celebrities play on public courses all the time.  Public does not necessarily mean a $10/round municipal course.  Public courses include Pebble Beach in Monterey,  TPC Sawgrass (site of the Players Championship),  St. Andrews in Scotland, etc.  

 

The greens fees for these courses are in the hundreds of dollars a round and decorum is expected.  Any paparazzi who show up would be quickly shown the gate.  

Thank you for the clarification - I was thinking exactly what you said, the $20 municipal golf courses my nephew frequents and I confess I do not know much (or anything) about other public courses. I probably shouldn't have said anything. 

Edited by Cosmocrush.
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I have a huge problem with something else that was said by Cait in this episode. When her sister and mother came to Cait's house before the ESPY awards, her sister asked 'Is Kris come (to the ESPYS)? Caitlyn said "no, I didn't invite her". Later in the episode, after the awards, Caitlyn said "she's been there for me for the last 25 years, at all the big events, and she wasn't there, to be honest with you, that makes me sad".  Cue the tears. That was an out and out lie to get sympathy from the viewers.

 

 

I didn't interpret it that way.  My interpretation is that Caitlyn was sad that her relationship with Kris was not at the point where Kris was able to be there for the big event.

 

I'm also pretty sure Kris had zero desire to be there and Caitlyn's claim that she didn't invite Kris was a way of putting the blame solely on herself (Cait) for the rift in their relationship.

Edited by remotecontrolfreak.
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I was surprised at how directive Cait was in practically ordering Kris to "sit there!"

I've seen her take charge in other situations in a way that (to me) indicates that she is used to being in charge or followed. It is an interesting sociological study in a way -- she was never raised in the "niceties" of being a woman. Not that all women are (or need to be) that way, but I definitely notice it in Cait.

  

I noticed this too. Plus, the way she called Kris (and again when she invited her over) and then basically acted like Kris should have something to say.

I thought when Caitlyn called Jen while in the closet that she was going to ask Jen for wardrobe advice. I suppose that indicates how I am feeling about Caitlyn at this point. She seems like she has a heart for others and I believe she is sincere in her transition, but she is about as deep as a puddle. It's like she has no concept of actual suffering. The disconnect when she is talking to these kids about how cops pull them over and demand to know if they "have a dick," meanwhile Caitlyn's biggest problem is how she's gonna wear her hair at the ESPYs or some shit. Or whether her locker at the country club is going to be moved. Really? Your locker at the COUNTRY CLUB? Meanwhile transgender women across the country are afraid of being assaulted in locker rooms, if they're even allowed in at all.

I thought the same thing! I so thought she was asking what she would wear, and loved it that Jen responded thoughtfully about how to handle the situation instead.

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Cait is allowed to live however she wants. She doesn't have to prove anything to anyone. I'm floored that she lets these women on the show constantly lecture her, and it seems like the world of trans activism is a very exclusive, judgmental world. It can get very frustrating as a cis person to watch this show and just feel exhausted by the sheer amount of hoops people want Caitlyn to jump through to earn her stripes. The proof will be in the pudding after the season is over, but like it or not, Caitlyn is the most famous trans person in history and is helping the community just by existing. She doesn't deserve to be praised for that, but she also doesn't deserve to be constantly harangued for not fitting into the mold of who these women think the ideal trans role model is. Cait is trying, and on the other hand, she's 65 and probably doesn't give a fuck, she's got limited time and wants to focus on herself. She's earned it.

She's free to associate with the other transgender ladies or not. It seems to have been the choice of producers and of Cait herself to seek out members of that community and have them participate in the show. If Cait wasn't/ isn't happy with their advice and counsel then she's free to cease contact with them and go about her merry way.

So she gives a party to herself when she gets her new name and gender assignment? I wonder how many strings were pulled to get that process moved along at warp speed?

Edited by iwasish.
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I think the other ladies are the best part of the show. I'd like to see a show with Chandi, Jen R, Jennifer B, Candis, Blossom and the others. I don't think Cait could carry this by herself. And as an aside, I really like Chandi's voice and style of speaking.

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Caitlyn has played on a public course recently:  http://www.tmz.com/2015/08/25/caitlyn-jenner-golfing-photo/

 

The show has provided a very slanted view of the transgender experience.  They focus on the negative experiences that transgender people have had.  They have included some very powerful advocates.  However, they have chosen to not show how their advocacy has helped other transgender people or how they have progressed in their own lives.  I added the link to Angelica Ross'  article in the media thread and someone re-listed it here.  It is an interesting read; it shows how the show has manipulated the narrative and further explains the totality of what has been said.  So, while I can understand the complaint that the transgender people featured in the show are trying to push Cait in a certain way, this is very much a decision by the producers to create this story.  The experiences of transgender people are not monolithic.  As with all of us, there is a great variety of life experience.  Also I would add in the idea of intersectionality.  The experiences of a famous, wealthy, white transgender woman will be very different than those of people who are non-white or not wealthy or not famous.  Very few of us, regardless of whether we are transgender or not, can identify with Caitlyn's experiences. 

 

Cait may currently be in her pink cloud of early transition.  However, her change does affect the people who are close to her.  She is so self-absorbed (not an effect of her transition, she seems to not have any goof understanding of how other people live) that she is ill-equipped to understand how her family is affected.  

 

Just a grammar note, transgender is an adjective, not a  noun.  So you can say transgender person, transgender man, transgender woman, transgender community, etc.  Transgenders is not a way of describing a group of transgender people.  Also, the term transgendered is not correct (even spell check doesn't like it - I know, that doesn't mean much).  I know no one means any offense with the use of these terms.  We are all learning a changing language.  The more you know! 

Edited by Muffyn.
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I'm floored that she lets these women on the show constantly lecture her, and it seems like the world of trans activism is a very exclusive, judgmental world. 

They're her employees basically, and she (arguably) hired them for that express purpose though. I mean if you go with the versions of events suggested by people like Angelica Ross.

Just a grammar note, transgender is an adjective, not a  noun.  So you can say transgender person, transgender man, transgender woman, transgender community, etc.  Transgenders is not a way of describing a group of transgender people.  Also, the term transgendered is not correct (even spell check doesn't like it - I know, that doesn't mean much).  I know no one means any offense with the use of these terms.  We are all learning a changing language.  The more you know! 

I will endeavor to use "transgender person" more going forward. It can occasionally be a mouthful, but it's a small price to pay.

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Just watched the episode, and it's really interesting to be able to see the reactions here. I can certainly see why many in the transgender community have expressed concern about the show painting them as victims, disparaging sex work, etc. But overall, do we feel like this show had been a positive or a negative for the transgender community?

 

My parents are about Cait's age and live in a rural community. I suspect that as far as they're aware, they've never met someone who is gay, lesbian, or bisexual-- let alone transgender. But they remember the Olympics and when they first heard about Caitlyn's transition in the tabloids, they referred to it as a "disturbing rumor" or something like that. I think seeing this show would do a world of good for them, because it shows the transgender community as being opening and nonthreatening and full of good people who have gone through a lot of BS just to be themselves. Maybe the intended audience is people like my parents? I did get a little emotional during some of the scenes with Cait's mother and sister. Those were nice.

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Caitlyn has played on a public course recently:  http://www.tmz.com/2015/08/25/caitlyn-jenner-golfing-photo/

 

My supervisor plays golf at that golf course. There are other celebrities who golf there.

 

 

Cait is trying, and on the other hand, she's 65 and probably doesn't give a fuck, she's got limited time and wants to focus on herself.  She's earned it.

This.

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Just watched the episode, and it's really interesting to be able to see the reactions here. I can certainly see why many in the transgender community have expressed concern about the show painting them as victims, disparaging sex work, etc. But overall, do we feel like this show had been a positive or a negative for the transgender community?

 

My parents are about Cait's age and live in a rural community. I suspect that as far as they're aware, they've never met someone who is gay, lesbian, or bisexual-- let alone transgender. But they remember the Olympics and when they first heard about Caitlyn's transition in the tabloids, they referred to it as a "disturbing rumor" or something like that. I think seeing this show would do a world of good for them, because it shows the transgender community as being opening and nonthreatening and full of good people who have gone through a lot of BS just to be themselves. Maybe the intended audience is people like my parents? I did get a little emotional during some of the scenes with Cait's mother and sister. Those were nice.

If the best a show can do is pander--and do it through manipulation and lying--how good IS it?

 

I have to think if this were really some noble endeavor in (deep) disguise, then it wouldn't be so slapdash.

 

And it seems to me that Angelica Ross (just to name the transgender person most directly betrayed--that we know of at least) has the right to feel that way, regardless of any incidental benefits from the show.

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About the marriage between Kris and *Bruce. I distinctly remember once, quite a while ago - maybe three or four years ago, when Kris was being interviewed:

She said that she was yelling for Bruce to come upstairs (or down - I don't recall the exact details) and it turned out that he had not even been in their house for over three days!

That was a very telling remark.

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The proof will be in the pudding after the season is over, but like it or not, Caitlyn is the most famous trans person in history and is helping the community just by existing.  She doesn't deserve to be praised for that, but she also doesn't deserve to be constantly harangued for not fitting into the mold of who these women think the ideal trans role model is.  Cait is trying, and on the other hand, she's 65 and probably doesn't give a fuck, she's got limited time and wants to focus on herself.  She's earned it.

I agree with this to an extent and sometimes feel I have set the bar too high for Cait. However, I do feel she put herself out there as wanting to be a voice and advocate for the transgender community and I can't say I really see her trying. A few sit downs and one grand gesture with the nursing school are nice but it all feels superficial to me. There seems to be very little substance to Cait. I haven't watched Keeping Up with the Kardashians. Was she always like this? She cuts off difficult conversations before they can really start and doesn't seem to truly absorb what's happening in her community.

Like you said, the proof will be in the pudding but it doesn't look promising to me.

Does anyone know if Rhonda is a paid assistant to Cait or just a helpful friend? I can't stand how badly she is treated sometimes and wondering if she puts up with it because she's a good friend, compensated or both.

Edited by mamey2422.
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Caitlyn was the same when she was on KUWTK. Chris is a shrew and unlikable but Caitlyn was unlikeable as well. Caitlyn hid out playing with her toys and show zero effort to join the family unless forced. Obviously, she may have felt that way because of her relationship with Chris. I can only comment as to  what happened on the show. Cait only seemed to relate to Scott and Rob somewhat and the girls not at all.

Edited by Madding crowd.
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Ok let me start by saying that I thought it was really touching to watch Chandis reaction to the dress that Candi helped her get for the award show. You could tell she isnt used to that kind of pampering and it meant a lot to her.

Now let me start on the meeting with Kris - I really have felt for her through out this whole ordeal. I dont care what anyone says about her the fact that this has happened the way it has - has had to be devastating to her on all levels. Caitlyn has been having what looks like the time of his/her life and I say both because she was him at the beginning of this journey and now is her - regardless she has been enjoying this new and exciting time of her life more than she has not. Kris on the other hand has had to of been having the worst time dealing with this and Caitlyn did not give a crap about her at all. Now that some of the "highs" of coming out have leveled Caitlyn is calling her simply for ratings or for her to give something to Caitlyn on some level which she is way more considerate just by showing up and giving the time to her at all than Caitlyn has been to her. I have never heard her say how is Kris and or how hard this has to be on her especially since I am doing this in such a public way. Only complaints about how Caitlyn is having to deal with the paps - well I have noticed that Kris has not been seen out much since this all broke loose - probably trying to avoid the constant questions thrown her way because of this whole deal. She could have been doing every interview in the world as one knows that she has been offered boo-coo bucks to do one but she has stayed quiet and what she has said is supportive. She has continued to treat Caitlyn with a level of respect and I give her major applause for this - I guess she is not all about selling out the family for the almighty dollar like it is said. I am hoping that the producers and Caitlyn are going to try to soften (if you can) what happened to Kris and her family because of her transition.

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The toughest ones seem to be things like the bakery that didn't want to bake a cake for a gay wedding. I hate that they feel that way, but given the fact that there is no absence of other outlets that provide the EXACT same service, this is where I start to get a little uncomfortable with the label "rights" being tossed around. Equal access rules might apply if that bakery had some kind of unique service (at least in that area), but if they don't?  They're assholes, but it's a hard sell to say they're actually denying a right.

Here's how I understand the "cake and flowers" question: If this bakery would sell the exact same wedding cake to a straight couple, but not to an LGBT couple, refusing to sell the cake to the LGBT couple would be illegal.

 

If somebody wants a cake with a swastika on it, but the bakery would not make and sell such a cake for anyone, refusing to make that cake would NOT be illegal.

 

Seems pretty simple to me.

Edited by okerry.
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Ok let me start by saying that I thought it was really touching to watch Chandis reaction to the dress that Candi helped her get for the award show. You could tell she isnt used to that kind of pampering and it meant a lot to her.

Now let me start on the meeting with Kris - I really have felt for her through out this whole ordeal. I dont care what anyone says about her the fact that this has happened the way it has - has had to be devastating to her on all levels. Caitlyn has been having what looks like the time of his/her life and I say both because she was him at the beginning of this journey and now is her - regardless she has been enjoying this new and exciting time of her life more than she has not. Kris on the other hand has had to of been having the worst time dealing with this and Caitlyn did not give a crap about her at all. Now that some of the "highs" of coming out have leveled Caitlyn is calling her simply for ratings or for her to give something to Caitlyn on some level which she is way more considerate just by showing up and giving the time to her at all than Caitlyn has been to her. I have never heard her say how is Kris and or how hard this has to be on her especially since I am doing this in such a public way. Only complaints about how Caitlyn is having to deal with the paps - well I have noticed that Kris has not been seen out much since this all broke loose - probably trying to avoid the constant questions thrown her way because of this whole deal. She could have been doing every interview in the world as one knows that she has been offered boo-coo bucks to do one but she has stayed quiet and what she has said is supportive. She has continued to treat Caitlyn with a level of respect and I give her major applause for this - I guess she is not all about selling out the family for the almighty dollar like it is said. I am hoping that the producers and Caitlyn are going to try to soften (if you can) what happened to Kris and her family because of her transition.

Oh believe me, the reason Kris seems quiet is she will have a book coming out about this sooner rather than later.  I'd bet a paycheck she's working on it right now if it's not already done.  If Caitlyn is a famewhore then she learned how to be one from Kris or I should say,  she learned how to capitalize on it.

 

When Caitlyn called Kris to come over we clearly weren't privy to the entire conversation.  In my head, Cait tells Kris she'd like to see her and talk but Kris doesn't agree until she knows the cameras will be there.   Also, they already did do a sit down where Caitlyn asked Kris how she is doing and what Cait can do to help her etc. for KUWTK.   Caitlyn went to Kris' house  right before her self imposed seclusion (surgery recovery) in Malibu. This was part of two episodes devoted to Caitlyn called "About Bruce"  which mostly dealt with Caitlyn talking to her daughers and stepdaughters about her upcoming transition. 

 

Don't get me wrong though, as much as I don't like Kris, if what she says about Caitlyn never sharing this issue with her (as she did with her previous ex-wives) is true then I think she has every right to be pissed off and hurt about it. She said she knew about the cross-dressing and she even knew about the hormones in 1980s but like Caitlyn told Jennifer Boylan, I don't think Kris really ever expected it to go this far.  So of course she would be pissed and hurt and everything else to find out the person she was married to for over 20 years didn't share their authentic self with her.  But that doesn't mean she won't figure out a way to capitalize on it.  After all, Kris built an empire off three talentless daughters.  

Edited by Cosmocrush.
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In my head, Cait tells Kris she'd like to see her and talk but Kris doesn't agree until she knows the cameras will be there.

It was more the other way around. When the ratings for 'I am Cait' tanked that's when they called in Kris, and all the reports came out they needed more Kardashian appearances because ratings boosted when they appeared. 

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Since they showed the clip that I assume came from KUWTK of Cait telling Kris that she had not been treating her well for 4-5 years, I think we can say that the marriage did not fall apart because of Cait’s transition.  I’m sure it didn’t help, but there were other issues in that marriage.

 

 

 

Not a Cait fan but this is true. I have watched all of the KUWTK episodes. It was painful to watch the entire family including Kendall and Kylie treat Cait like garbage. Cait said that towards the end of the marriage, Kris was practically shoving Cait out the door. She wanted her out of there. So I don't care to see her big ole tears about how Cait has moved on and has no time for them anymore. Gimme a break, Kris took no time in finding her new found freedom and boy toy Corey or whaterver his name is. 

 

On a shallow note, Cait needs to fire her stylist. Her wardrobe and shoes look like grandma's. 

Edited by bichonblitz.
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On a shallow note, Cait needs to fire her stylist. Her wardrobe and shoes look like grandma's. 

That's because she is a grandma. (Grandpa? I'm not sure how that works.)

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On a shallow note, Cait needs to fire her stylist. Her wardrobe and shoes look like grandma's. 

Yikes and Ouch, LOL.     I kind of like her clothing style.   I thought it seems rather classic and ageless, but what do I know - I'm over 45. Anyway, I prefer it to trying to dress like a 25 year old. 

Edited by Cosmocrush.
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That's because she is a grandma. (Grandpa? I'm not sure how that works.)

I know, but she's trying to look like Angelina Jolie! lol

 

Yikes and Ouch, LOL.     I kind of like her clothing style.   I thought it seems rather classic and ageless, but what do I know - I'm over 45. Anyway, I prefer it to trying to dress like a 25 year old. 

Oh, and I'm sure all of her clothes are expensive designer stuff. Just don't like em'. She may be tall, but for god's sake she needs to stop hunching over. Her posture is awful which I think contributes to the grandma look !

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Not a Cait fan but this is true. I have watched all of the KUWTK episodes. It was painful to watch the entire family including Kendall and Kylie treat Cait like garbage. Cait said that towards the end of the marriage, Kris was practically shoving Cait out the door. She wanted her out of there. So I don't care to see her big ole tears about how Cait has moved on and has no time for them anymore. Gimme a break, Kris took no time in finding her new found freedom and boy toy Corey or whaterver his name is.

On a shallow note, Cait needs to fire her stylist. Her wardrobe and shoes look like grandma's.

I'm kind of surprised that Cait didn't throw the new BF in Kris's face. She's talking about him leaving the family in the dust... well not much settled on Kris before she started getting it dusted off regularly.

Like Cait said, Kris found the Malibu house, rented it, had it decorated and got Cait moved in, in record time. And moved Kim, Kanye and North in to replace her. I bet she and Kimmy-cakes discussed that plan many times over. Just like they decided to bring Brandon, Brody and Leah to Thailand to keep Caitlyn occupied.

Edited by 17wheatthins. Reason: Proper pronoun usage; "her" instead of "him"
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I really like what Candace brings to the show. Her career has been to be the diva but she seems very down to earth. Chandi was pissing me off before but to her credit editing could be responsible for the snarky way she appears to answer Cait's questions. After seeing her at her support group I wonder if she did elaborate on those questions and they were cut out. I feel like the ratings drop could be the curiosity factor fading or possibly that it's a reality show made like a documentary so you lose both audiences that way! Too fake to be a documentary and too real to be a reality show. Hard to say.

Edited by freeradical.
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 I feel like the ratings drop could be the curiosity factor fading or possibly that it's a reality show made like a documentary so you lose both audiences that way! Too fake to be a documentary and too real to be a reality show. Hard to say.

This is a good point.  I would add that the Kardashian factor could be at play too, although I'm not sure if that would cause a bump or a drop in the ratings.  

 

A few years ago I watched the Becoming Chaz on OWN (who I think acquired the rights after it premiered at Sundance) but it was only the length of a movie (90 minutes?)  and very good.  I think it was nominated for some Primetime Emmys.  But Chaz went public and put his experience  on film for the same reasons Caitlyn claims she is doing this show: to try and help people, to put a face on an issue that people just don't understand.  In the 2010 preview Chaz says, "This is a hard thing for people to grasp. I mean, you really have to open your mind because so few people have to struggle with any kind of gender identity.  I mean people really take for granted that they feel right in their body."    And like Caitlyn, her family (or at least her mom) struggled to accept it.    

 

So while these two stories and projects have a lot in common, I think the delivery of their film/TV show is very different. Personally, I think the motivations for going public are different too.  For one thing, you can see the entire Becoming Chaz doc online for $1.99.   I'm pretty sure that money wasn't ever really a motivation for him.  Caitlyn on the other hand can't seem to help herself.  For as big of a loner as she was, I think think she really does enjoy the limelight.  And cashing those checks from E! 

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This is a good point.  I would add that the Kardashian factor could be at play too, although I'm not sure if that would cause a bump or a drop in the ratings.  

 

A few years ago I watched the Becoming Chaz on OWN (who I think acquired the rights after it premiered at Sundance) but it was only the length of a movie (90 minutes?)  and very good.  I think it was nominated for some Primetime Emmys.  But Chaz went public and put his experience  on film for the same reasons Caitlyn claims she is doing this show: to try and help people, to put a face on an issue that people just don't understand.  In the 2010 preview Chaz says, "This is a hard thing for people to grasp. I mean, you really have to open your mind because so few people have to struggle with any kind of gender identity.  I mean people really take for granted that they feel right in their body."    And like Caitlyn, her family (or at least her mom) struggled to accept it.    

 

So while these two stories and projects have a lot in common, I think the delivery of their film/TV show is very different. Personally, I think the motivations for going public are different too.  For one thing, you can see the entire Becoming Chaz doc online for $1.99.   I'm pretty sure that money wasn't ever really a motivation for him.  Caitlyn on the other hand can't seem to help herself.  For as big of a loner as she was, I think think she really does enjoy the limelight.  And cashing those checks from E! 

I agree, I think its a flashback to her Olympic Glory days and the massive public attention she got then. Despite her protestations, I think she actually loves the hiding from the paparazzi and the cloak and dagger trips to visit Candis without being seen by them.  She's a competitive person and no way she isn't enjoying the fact that she's drawing as much attention if not more than Kim and the others.

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Just caught this on replay and wanted to say I kinda really enjoy Cait's Mom. She was cute. ..asking the questions and everyone showing her the patience someone of her age and generation deserves.

Candis came off nicer in this ep as well.I love Chandi but Jesus someone hand her some powder! That's distracting.

I'm still on the fence about Caitlyn herself. Very short with people but wants understanding from everyone at the same time. Maybe she will learn in time. I really think maybe just always has been a shallow person and gender had nada to do with it.

I also agree that Kris and kids were very disrespectful in the old shows at times but I'm never sure about the edit. It helps me to think of Caitlyn as a 13 yr old girl with all the emotions and physical changes that occur at that time of your life. .so maybe the snappiness and uncertainty is due to all the changes taking place.

Edited by MarysWetBar.
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I can't get over how Cait has two people to do her hair and makeup and pick out her clothes before she walks out the door. Like royalty.

 

I like Candis, but her permanent lip augmentation is really distracting to my eyes. All those ladies with lip implants (not fillers) end up looking related.  The chick from that LA pawn shop show and the millionaire matchmaker all have the exact same weird top lip.

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A few years ago I watched the Becoming Chaz on OWN (who I think acquired the rights after it premiered at Sundance) but it was only the length of a movie (90 minutes?)  and very good.  I think it was nominated for some Primetime Emmys.  But Chaz went public and put his experience  on film for the same reasons Caitlyn claims she is doing this show: to try and help people, to put a face on an issue that people just don't understand.  In the 2010 preview Chaz says, "This is a hard thing for people to grasp. I mean, you really have to open your mind because so few people have to struggle with any kind of gender identity.  I mean people really take for granted that they feel right in their body."    And like Caitlyn, her family (or at least her mom) struggled to accept it.

 

I did watch that show but don't remember this - thanks for posting it because that quote really sums up how I feel about these folks - I don't understand AT ALL, but realize that there must be something there based on all of these gal pals of Caitlin's - I remember mostly feeling sorry for Chastity as I watched her becoming Chaz. With Chandi, Candis, both Jens, the Angelica Ross article and the others - they bring something Chaz's show lacked, IMO, which is the viewpoint and realization that there is a whole world out there that I'm not aware of and there's more to it than feeling sorry for one misfit.  **I acknowledge that this is probably not worded in the most gracious or PC fashion, but I mean it in a kind way, and for those who have argued about the positive/negs of the show - this is a positive for me.  I am not really a fan of Cait and totally get why people find her unlikable - but I am enjoying the show, and feel like I have learned a lot (from the girlfriends)

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I did watch that show but don't remember this - thanks for posting it because that quote really sums up how I feel about these folks - I don't understand AT ALL, but realize that there must be something there based on all of these gal pals of Caitlin's - I remember mostly feeling sorry for Chastity as I watched her becoming Chaz. With Chandi, Candis, both Jens, the Angelica Ross article and the others - they bring something Chaz's show lacked, IMO, which is the viewpoint and realization that there is a whole world out there that I'm not aware of and there's more to it than feeling sorry for one misfit.  **I acknowledge that this is probably not worded in the most gracious or PC fashion, but I mean it in a kind way, and for those who have argued about the positive/negs of the show - this is a positive for me.  I am not really a fan of Cait and totally get why people find her unlikable - but I am enjoying the show, and feel like I have learned a lot (from the girlfriends)

 

 

I love love Chaz and thought that he seemed and does seem so much more real in his journey than Caitlyn. If we could vote for him to get an award for being brave I would vote for him in a second. For me I was actually amazed by the way he stuck to his inner truth and never gave up on it. Maybe it is the fact that he was pretty public about it and or I felt you could just see it with him from the time he was very young. I think that with Caitlyn its kinda like you duped us for so long with your "other" self that I find it hard to take what she is saying now as the truth. And the emphasis that is placed on the "primping" puts me off a bit too because there is much more to being a woman than that - try just being human and showing compassion for everyone including those outside your circle. It is great that we are starting to understand the harsh reality that many transgender individuals face - I think that Caitlyn fails to make us feel sympathy for them when we are hearing one thing and watching another. Chaz on the other hand - much more relatable and believable. Not trying to exploit the issues in any way- too bad Caitlyn isnt more like him - and without Candi I would have quit this show a long time ago. 

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And another question I have is about the family - if they are on board with their support where were Brody and Brandon around the Espy awards? Why dont we see Caitlyns bio children interacting with his mother and sisters? Why isnt she ever seen doing anything other than something for herself  and interacting with her children that she is so concerned about hurting? This really makes that whole "family is everything" line she likes to use seem like a bunch of lies as well. Actions dont support the words.

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Why did the ratings drop?

 

Simple answer. The show is boring and repetitive.

 

Every episode is exactly the same and has the same three scenarios:

1. Cait frets over what to wear, while accompanied in her closet by a team of stylists.

2. Cait meets with one of more of "the girls," who school her on what it's really like to be transgender.

3. Cait meets with a group of other transgender people, usually young, and listens to their stories, because "this is what it's all about."

 

Even the episode about the ESPYs mostly fit this model. It could have been a whole lot more.

Edited by remotecontrolfreak.
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And another question I have is about the family - if they are on board with their support where were Brody and Brandon around the Espy awards? Why dont we see Caitlyns bio children interacting with his mother and sisters? Why isnt she ever seen doing anything other than something for herself  and interacting with her children that she is so concerned about hurting? This really makes that whole "family is everything" line she likes to use seem like a bunch of lies as well. Actions dont support the words.

From what I understand, they are supportive of the transition but not the show and her son Brandon who has been on KUWTK doesn't like that she chose the same production crew that does KUWTK. They were at the Espy's but their faces had to be blurred on he show. The oldest daughter, in particular, stood out because she was behind Kendall and Kim and you can see a woman's blurred face there.

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Cait is allowed to live however she wants. She doesn't have to prove anything to anyone. I'm floored that she lets these women on the show constantly lecture her, and it seems like the world of trans activism is a very exclusive, judgmental world. It can get very frustrating as a cis person to watch this show and just feel exhausted by the sheer amount of hoops people want Caitlyn to jump through to earn her stripes. The proof will be in the pudding after the season is over, but like it or not, Caitlyn is the most famous trans person in history and is helping the community just by existing. She doesn't deserve to be praised for that, but she also doesn't deserve to be constantly harangued for not fitting into the mold of who these women think the ideal trans role model is. Cait is trying, and on the other hand, she's 65 and probably doesn't give a fuck, she's got limited time and wants to focus on herself. She's earned it.

 

One would almost think these women broke into her house, declared she was to be the face of the transgendered persons movement and forced her to listen to them lecture her on how to do it. If she really gave no fucks and just wanted to focus on herself - she could. Except like the rest of her family, she can't exist without spotlights and minions. 

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