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Cait: The Lady Of The Hour

{putting psychic hat on}

 

Hoo-boy this thread is bound to be interesting...

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I wish they came up with a better name for this show, something like "Call Me Caitlyn" (or Cait), or "The New Me" or something that isn't so generic as "I Am Cait". Especially since there is a "I Am Jazz" show (which is listed right under this on the board) that's about another transgender male to female. Are we going to be getting an assortment of "I Am ____" shows about transgender people?

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I hope it's a good discussion ... one where all mist agree but one where transphobic doesn't happen or go unchecked. 

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I hope it's a good discussion ... one where all mist agree but one where transphobic doesn't happen or go unchecked. 

Yeah, but we have the thorny issue we've already had elsewhere that Caitlyn Jenner is someone who often received criticism even BEFORE her transition, and the infighting seems to center around if you can criticize her without getting into debates on whether or not doing so is transphobic.

 

We can hope.

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I will watch tonight, but I'm just not sure about the show in general.  I wish that the rest of her family (the Jenner kids) were in it - that fact that the previews seem to be Kardashian related is a turn off for me- the one scene in which Kim points out that Kris has the same dress as Cait?  Seriously - are we supposed to believe that's a coincidence and not a scripted scene?

 

So...I don't know. 

 

 

Yeah, but we have the thorny issue we've already had elsewhere that Caitlyn Jenner is someone who often received criticism even BEFORE her transition, and the infighting seems to center around if you can criticize her without getting into debates on whether or not doing so is transphobic.

 

We can hope.

 

And this is true. While I applaud her courage (as I applaud anyone who has the courage to transition), count me in among those that never were Jenner fans to begin with. 

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This is incredibly petty, but I don't think I'll be able to watch this show because the name "Caitlyn" drives me CRAZY.  She was born in 1949, not 1989, for pete's sake.  A 65 year old running around with the name "Caitlyn" makes about as much sense as a 15 year old named Gertrude.  

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I hope this show isn't going to be just another Kardashian-brand product. I'm truly interested in the challenges that trans people face, and I'm watching this in the hopes that it will represent some of that. If it's just another channel for the Karsdashians there will be little reason for me to stick around.

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And this is true. While I applaud her courage (as I applaud anyone who has the courage to transition), count me in among those that never were Jenner fans to begin with.

I DO think we have to be really careful.

Criticize Caitlyn Jenner, sure. But I hope we can ALL be careful about the subtleties. For example, the pronoun thing. Even if Caitlyn Jenner doesn't have respect from a poster as a person, or liking, using the proper pronoun is more about showing respect for OTHER people reading than it is showing it for Caitlyn Jenner herself.

The whole past/present thing is one we hashed over a bit in the Kardashian forum. My personal preference is to use "Bruce", "he" and "him" for the part of Jenner's life before she declared herself a she, but "Caitlyn", "she" and "her" for anything from June 1, 2015 or so onwards (because that's when Caitlyn announced she wanted to be called something else). That can get really twisty if you're talking about Bruce and Caitlyn, and past and present actions, in the same sentence though--so I bet not everyone will try the same as me.

I dunno. The more "Cait is inspirational" press I see, the more I can't help but roll my eyes. It may be kneejerk, but I hate having the press tell me who I'm supposed to be inspired by. On some level I just wish this reality show had been a year from now--documenting BACK what happened. Having it so close to "real time" is what pushes my skeptic button so hard.

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Well, even when she was living as Bruce and was hiding herself from the world, she was still a woman. She just didn't tell anyone. Using female pronouns regardless of the period in question is not wrong, and simplifies the discussion.

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I DO think we have to be really careful.

Criticize Caitlyn Jenner, sure. But I hope we can ALL be careful about the subtleties. For example, the pronoun thing. Even if Caitlyn Jenner doesn't have respect from a poster as a person, or liking, using the proper pronoun is more about showing respect for OTHER people reading than it is showing it for Caitlyn Jenner herself.

The whole past/present thing is one we hashed over a bit in the Kardashian forum. My personal preference is to use "Bruce", "he" and "him" for the part of Jenner's life before she declared herself a she, but "Caitlyn", "she" and "her" for anything from June 1, 2015 or so onwards (because that's when Caitlyn announced she wanted to be called something else). That can get really twisty if you're talking about Bruce and Caitlyn, and past and present actions, in the same sentence though--so I bet not everyone will try the same as me.

I dunno. The more "Cait is inspirational" press I see, the more I can't help but roll my eyes. It may be kneejerk, but I hate having the press tell me who I'm supposed to be inspired by. On some level I just wish this reality show had been a year from now--documenting BACK what happened. Having it so close to "real time" is what pushes my skeptic button so hard.

Word, is there going to be more to this show and Cait besides getting all dolled-up?

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Looks like next episode that is addressed by some of her new friends. And Kim is spokesperson for the Kardashians who feel that they got bashed in the Vanity Fair article.

I did think that Kylie felt pressured to see her dad and was very uncomfortable. Like another poster said... I bet she cried all the way home.

I am a bit surprised that Caitlyn is so ungainly, my friend said she looks like PeeWee Herman the way she flutters her arms.

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I don't know how I don't know this, but was this why Caitlyn and Kris got divorced? Or did they divorce for other reasons and once they split, Cait decided now is the time to live her authentic life and transition?

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This is incredibly petty, but I don't think I'll be able to watch this show because the name "Caitlyn" drives me CRAZY. She was born in 1949, not 1989, for pete's sake. A 65 year old running around with the name "Caitlyn" makes about as much sense as a 15 year old named Gertrude.

Kate, as in Kate Hepburn and all the other Katharines nicknamed Kate, might have made more sense from the date of birth point of view. The name Kate predates the 1900s and also continues to be used. Edited by nexxie.
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I don't know how I don't know this, but was this why Caitlyn and Kris got divorced? Or did they divorce for other reasons and once they split, Cait decided now is the time to live her authentic life and transition?

According to Caitlyn, her gender issues played big parts in her first two divorces, but says it was mostly the way Kris treated her that led to the last divorce.
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"Caitlyn" was descended from "Kathleen" - but the first "Katelyn" I ever knew was born in the 1990s. The spelling with "C" seems to be even newer than that. 

 

I'm surprised to hear that her transitioning wasn't a factor in her divorce from Kris, only Kris's treatment was. If Kris had treated her more kindly, would she have continued in the marriage as "Bruce"? 

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I knew one Katelyn born in 1987. Her mother felt like it was unique and that she had invented it! She was shocked to hear a million of them right after her Katelyn was born!

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I knew one Katelyn born in 1987. Her mother felt like it was unique and that she had invented it! She was shocked to hear a million of them right after her Katelyn was born!

I was one of the first people to have my name in 1949, then it became popular. (My mom had read magazine stories about Lana Turner's 6-year-old daughter before I was born.) But I mostly grew up with Debbies, Susans and Barbaras. (Christine, too, although always with a "C" not "K.") Caitlyn was born in the same year.  Very few parents went out on a limb with names back then - my mom always said that she was a "rebel" when she named me! 

Edited by CousinAmy.
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If she wanted to be her true self so badly, why did she marry three women? (And divorce them?) It seems to me that if her ultimate goal was to live as a woman, why choose to be a husband?

I'm not sure of the truth of her relationship with Kris - who is - but I have read that Kris didn't take it well. Was it fair to marry her, if Caitlyn wasn't 100% committed to being a husband?

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If she wanted to be her true self so badly, why did she marry three women? (And divorce them?) It seems to me that if her ultimate goal was to live as a woman, why choose to be a husband?

I'm not sure of the truth of her relationship with Kris - who is - but I have read that Kris didn't take it well. Was it fair to marry her, if Caitlyn wasn't 100% committed to being a husband?

I mean, the obvious answer here is that she married three women because she was attracted to them and the most acceptable and legal way for her to create to be be married was to do so with under her natal sex assignment, which means she had to be defined as husband and father.  Though every transgender story will be unique and Caitlyn's story won't be the same for the next person.  

 

Discrimination hurts everyone, not just the target of bigotry.  It's not fair to anyone.  It's incredibly limiting to all.  A culture of fear, shame and hatred drives people to maintain their closet doors.  There have been a lot of shows and movies that explore the devastation discriminations leaves behind for everyone.  Brokeback Mountain, Grace and Frankie, Transparent, just to name a few under the LGBT umbrella.  The spouses, the kids, the friends....everyone in the circle of the marginalized suffers, even when it's presented in a comedic way.

 

I'm sure you've heard plenty of stories about the issues trans people face.  Until just over a month ago, Cait's marriage to a woman wouldn't have even been nationally recognized.  She could get married in Massachusetts and fly to Texas and have zero spousal rights.  In an overwhelming number of states, the path to amend one's legal gender and name is incredibly difficult or non-existent.  Then we look at how the things Cait accomplished wouldn't have been possible if she'd be able to live her authentic self.  None of the privilege in the world would change the fact that she could only be an Olympic athlete if she competed under her assigned sex (this has very recently been changed by the IOC, though there rules still aren't anywhere near ideal).  

 

Medical and religious shame is strong.  On the medical end, it was treated as an illness to cure for decades.  Trans people would be sent to therapists and institutions and camps and all sorts of things in order to get the trans out of them.  The religious aspect is even worse and also more complicated.  In the first episode Esther revealed she was very concerned about Caitlyn's soul due to what the bible might have had to say.  If one's god teaches them that their existence is wrong, that's pretty hard to overcome, yes?

 

And finally, let's turn back to language.  Transgender people have existed since the dawn of human history, this isn't anything new.  The new thing is the way we speak and think about being transgender because we have developed the linguistic tools to do so.  When I was growing up, explaining to my mother what I was in an adequate way was impossible because the words just didn't exist in colloquial speech, and I was in a three language household!.  For a trans person Jenner's age, that lack of ability to discuss it due to inadequate vocabulary would have been even more pronounced.*  A good comparison on how to think about this would be to recall a time when you've felt lost or unsure and you felt you were seeking something but couldn't figure out what it was.  It might have been something trivial, maybe something important, but whatever it was you just couldn't put your finger on it.  Then your friend says some random word and you ask what it is and she explains or you come across it on google and you have this lightbulb aha moment and say "omigosh, that's exactly what I've been searching for."  And then once you have this word and this new vocabulary, you can move forward.  

 

 

 

*Just want to point out that it's not this way across all times and cultures.  Many languages, religions, and traditions have been trans inclusive.  I'm speaking more about modern western judeo christian cultures and languages with some east asian tossed in for a bit of seasoning.  

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If she wanted to be her true self so badly, why did she marry three women? (And divorce them?) It seems to me that if her ultimate goal was to live as a woman, why choose to be a husband?

I'm not sure of the truth of her relationship with Kris - who is - but I have read that Kris didn't take it well. Was it fair to marry her, if Caitlyn wasn't 100% committed to being a husband?

Ostensibly, Caitlyn married those women because she loved them.

Here is a link to many articles about transgender people in marriages. It may behoove you to check them out! :-)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/transgender-spouse/

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If she wanted to be her true self so badly, why did she marry three women? (And divorce them?) It seems to me that if her ultimate goal was to live as a woman, why choose to be a husband?

I'm not sure of the truth of her relationship with Kris - who is - but I have read that Kris didn't take it well. Was it fair to marry her, if Caitlyn wasn't 100% committed to being a husband?

Of all the many things Caitlyn Jenner has lied about, I don't think having had a preference for women is one of them. Now if she suddenly does an about-face on that, some may ask if that's real, or because she thinks she "has to" for the cameras, press, etc.

 

I've read the suggestion that Caitlyn maybe just has some fantasy of being a pretty girl and doing another girl as a girl. That's probably the most crass way to suggest she made the transition for the wrong reasons (when in fact why she did it is completely her business--as public as she's gotten with everything else that one aspect is eternally always "only her business").

 

As for why she picked Kris of all people?  Well if we're being honest, while Kris WAS the ex-wife of a rather infamous and wealthy man, it's not like Famous Rich Olympian Jenner needed either of those things (assuming Kris even got money out of the divorce--who knows... the divorce alleged happened though because she cheated on Robert). There was no Kardashian Media Empire in 1991 when they got married.  They both already had kids and obligations too. Now we can question why Kris picked Caitlyn, because maybe she thought to play on that fame to build showbiz connections for her family, or maybe from HER end Kris was just looking for money again, but from the other side I think there had to be some emotion. The fact that Kris was arguably a pretty good looking woman at the time factors into it too. Caitlyn was a heterosexual male at the time, whatever secret attitudes she may have had about her gender role that doesn't mean her sexuality wasn't firm.

Edited by Kromm.
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I saw some photos of Jenner on a fashion blog site (posted on the "Mom Has That" topic), and she looks like she's already got the "Hollywood face" that comes from too much plastic surgery, with cat's eyes and cheek implants. That's too bad.

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I have a question for anyone who feels up to it:  If your husband confided in you that he wished to transition to a woman and your only knowledge of the transgender experience was I Am Cait (as is the case for many Americans) what would your reaction be?   Would your instinct be to help?  Or to run in the opposite direction?   Based on what you've seen on this show, that is.

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Best case, millennium, I'd realize that becoming a woman probably wouldn't change the things that bugged me about my (hypothetical) husband. Worst case, I'd expect to be steamrolled by someone who suddenly thinks they know more about being a woman than I do, and who is perhaps now competitive about who is more womanly. And I'd worry about what sort of woman he would be, which to be fair I think is a bit of the mystery when someone transitions, but not usually a bad thing. I would not want a girly-girl spouse, although there is nothing wrong with being a girly girl. I'd hope that I'd realize the rest of our lives are so different from Cait that the show isn't a template, but I might be more worried. But I can't see marrying a man like Bruce, so I don't think my husband would become a woman like Cait. This show might be good for those who are willing to discuss Cait/the show and who don't know much but who have open minds. 

 

I don't hold strong traditional ideas about the genders, or feel that gender is especially binary, so I'd probably be more ok with a spouse who transitioned (if I had a spouse they're more likely to be male, but not certain to be). I think anyone who married Bruce the Olympian would probably have more traditional views of gender, and I think Cait as Bruce would have selected women like that, as I think she was a man like that. Meaning that whomever Cait had been married to, Kris, one of the exes, another woman would be more likely to have a hard time with her husband wanting to transition. I think age would be a factor too. And I think one spouse surprising the other with the idea of transitioning is probably always hard, especially at first, but harder for older people, and harder for people who think men are men and women are women.

Edited by Cosmic Muffin.
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I have a question for anyone who feels up to it:  If your husband confided in you that he wished to transition to a woman and your only knowledge of the transgender experience was I Am Cait (as is the case for many Americans) what would your reaction be?   Would your instinct be to help?  Or to run in the opposite direction?   Based on what you've seen on this show, that is.

It's an interesting question, but I don't know if it's a very fair one.  It's a hard sell for me to believe this is most Americans absolute first exposure.  That doesn't mean the previous exposure is POSITIVE, but just that there are definitely preconceptions. 

 

It also depends on an assumption that the viewers might be totally gullible and buy this vision of transgenderism. And even this show tries to make the point that Jenner isn't typical.  The problem, if we spin it as one, is with the person, Caitlyn Jenner, not the concept of the show overall, and if the Empress Has No Clothes phenomenon was really fully still in play here, then maybe the ratings would be better. A few weeks ago, before those dismal ratings numbers were publicized, it seemed like the St. Jenner thing might be getting in the way, but I'm more dubious now that it is. One hopes that a reasonably bright person watching this would realize how abnormal (and I don't mean that in the usual pejorative sense) what we're seeing here is. A typical person transitioning doesn't summon the Intelligentsia and Trans Royal Court to their house for conferences.  A typical person transitioning doesn't have criminal charges hanging over their head. Or have Kim Freaking Kardashian and Kanye West show up at their house for fake conversations. Or have a harpy like Kris as an ex.  I mean I'd like to think that nobody is looking to this show for those kind of answers. Ultimately I don't see this show as being as harmful as my worst fears had it possibly being, because it doesn't seem to have held onto any great credibility. Her co-stars can write all the articles praising Caitlyn that they want--it's not going to change that.

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I have a question for anyone who feels up to it:  If your husband confided in you that he wished to transition to a woman and your only knowledge of the transgender experience was I Am Cait (as is the case for many Americans) what would your reaction be?   Would your instinct be to help?  Or to run in the opposite direction?   Based on what you've seen on this show, that is.

Maybe I'm not understanding the question because I think this is almost impossible to answer because I would never base a decision to end my marriage on information I got from an E! reality show any more than I would follow life altering medical advice from the Dr. Oz Show, lol. 

 

I remember when Chaz Bono transitioned and his relationship hit the rocks because he was in a relationship  with a woman who was attracted to women, not men.  So if I had to guess my knee jerk reaction would be to divorce my husband - because if I wanted to live with a woman I would already be doing it.  

 

It's an interesting question, but I don't know if it's a very fair one.  It's a hard sell for me to believe this is most Americans absolute first exposure.  That doesn't mean the previous exposure is POSITIVE, but just that there are definitely preconceptions. 

I agree with this. Oprah had bigger audiences than Caitlynn and she was doing shows on this over a decade ago (it's where I'd first seen Jennifer Boylan) so even if someone's exposure was limited to TV, Catilyn isn't first by a long shot. Becoming Chaz, PBS Frontline, Boys Don't Cry, etc.  Maybe she has a wider audience, more people know her name - I don't know. 

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A previous impression could even be something from a porn movie, or that when you were a kid it was considered "cool" to scream "Tranny!" at someone and punch them in the face. Misinformation is often still information of a sort, it just may be misleading or atypical stuff that has to be overcome to dig at the real stuff, rather than information that's edifying from the start. 

 

I Am Cait certainly contains it's own misinformation, although a lot of that is just what people might infer if they aren't sharp enough to see how atypical and privileged Caitlyn Jenner is.  The hill being climbed here--the burden--is if that hardly blank slate that many people already have about Transgender issues can be improved upon or clarified by watching the show. I'd hesitantly say "yes", only because as long as you get over the hump of realizing that Caitlyn is a phony in so many ways, that if you were SERIOUSLY in the position of having to deal with a transgender person in your own marriage or family, you wouldn't be satisfied by the show and would go looking for more.  The show would perhaps serve as enough of an irritant that you'd say "there has to be more to it than this" and you'd seek it out.

Edited by Kromm.
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Okay, so apparently Caitlyn has revealed (to Ellen Degeneres) that she's still luke-warm on gay marriage (and was against it not that long ago).

 

I'm going to shock a few people by revealing that in principle, I'd understand her having that point of view (even though it's totally at odds with my own opinions). 

 

But... (you knew that was coming, I bet) that understanding has to be tempered by the awareness that this isn't just someone who wanted to change her gender who just HAPPENED to believe in a highly conservative "traditional" notion of marriage.  That to me would be a shame, but hardly disgraceful. For me the real issue would be Caitlyn having the balls (so to speak) to attach herself so firmly to the LGBT cause/leadership while having those opinions.

 

I hope the hair I'm slicing here is clear. IMO you can feel whatever you feel, but when you put yourself forward as a leader (and as a "hero" of a movement--a label I think we all realize by now she worked to get attached to her), then in THAT specific case if you don't fully agree with their agenda, you need to step aside. A kind of reluctant, "I'm beginning to see their point, mostly because it now affects ME" isn't enough.  Not without some time and actual deeds to reinforce it.

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Luckily, it doesn't matter how Caitlyn "feels" about gay marriage.  It's the law.  It's done.  Despite all the hysterical reactions from the right (who I believe really don't care about the issue outside of a way to manipulate the masses with fear but that's another blog)  it's done. 

 

I think I understand what you're saying though Kromm and I agree it makes sense that a self appointed 'leader' needs to support that organization's agenda.  But is Caitlyn really considered a "leader" in the transgender community by anyone?  Currently, one of the most visible yes, but I'm not so sure about leader.  Then again, it's not my community, I don't get the newsletters, lol.  

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I think by now we have reasonably established that Ms. Jenner is a hypocrite who believes in one set of rules for her and another for everybody else.  

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I agree with the last several comments, but darned if I don't have to give Caitlyn a tiny bit of credit for at least being honest!

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So, going forward, she would marry a man, but not a woman? But she seems to be oriented towards women still? How does *that* work? Even if right now she doesn't think she ever wants to marry again, how does she not get how she personally (what really matters to her) could be affected by this?

 

I just don't get her.

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I agree with the last several comments, but darned if I don't have to give Caitlyn a tiny bit of credit for at least being honest!

I wonder.

 

The position that she's okay with it NOW, hesitantly, certainly could be a fib. It may be her compromise so she can sound like she's "learning". Because, you know, that's her storyarc.

 

Or not. I don't want to be in the business of trying to read through what Caitlyn says truthfully and sincerely and what's a pack of lies or a performance. That way lies madness.  If it's the truth though? Like I said, as strongly as I disagree (with her previous position I mean), my real problem is the seeming conflict between having that hesitance and seriously standing there at the Espys giving that speech she went through considerable trouble to be able to give to the world (and hasn't she also been to LGBT rallies and such?)

Edited by Kromm.
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I saw Caitlyn's entire appearance on Ellen yesterday and was pleased to see she brought Blossom with her!  Blossom was beyond excited to be there but then Ellen called her to come out onstage and I don't think I've seen Cait that happy and excited before. Blossom explained about her difficulty of being continually denied admission to a nursing school and Ellen made a plea for her.  Then she gave Blossom $20K from Shutterfly (a big show sponsor) and everyone clapped.   Oh, Candis was backstage with Blossom too.   I guess she and Cait really did become friends. 

 

Beyond that I thought Cait did well.  I liked that she came out of the gate acknowledging, as well as repeating several times, that her journey/situation is very different from most people's transitions - because of her age/resources/etc.    She also talked about almost making the jump in the 1980s; she said she lived alone in the hills of Malibu and only left the house to go to work.  She was taking hormones and planned to transition before her 40th birthday.  But she got to 39 and just couldn't do it.  Cait implied she chickened out without saying those words.   Anyway, after that she decided if she wasn't going to transition then she needed to get back into life and then met Kris blah blah blah.   Then 23 years later she was back in Malibu and alone with the same feelings she's had her entire life and decided to finally transition.

 

edited for typos

Edited by Cosmocrush.
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I'm still on the fence about Caitlyn herself. Very short with people but wants understanding from everyone at the same time. Maybe she will learn in time. I really think maybe she just always has been a shallow person and gender had nada to do with it.

I also agree that Kris and kids were very disrespectful in the old shows at times, but I'm never sure about the edit. It helps me to think of Caitlyn as a 13 yr old girl with all the emotions and physical changes that occur at that time of your life. So maybe the snappiness and uncertainty is due to all the changes taking place.

Caitlyn speaks of Bruce as if he's a separate (and less nice) person, but the call is coming from inside the house (to quote RuPaul). Caitlyn is literally the same person who presented as Bruce. MarysWetBar's puberty comparison is apt, and JBo talked about the "pink haze," but Caitlyn seems to think in terms of "before" and "after."

I've only seen KUWTK on The Soup, but I got the impression Caitlyn was a loner with no real friends whose family treated her dismissively. On this show, she seems like a divorcée who's using her newfound freedom to give something back to her community. Her new friends and experiences will hopefully make her a better person—but she's still the same person.

I love love Chaz and thought that he seemed and does seem so much more real in his journey than Caitlyn.

I watched Chaz on Celebrity Fit Club in 2006, and he was a team player then, too.

Edited by editorgrrl.
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I have a question for anyone who feels up to it:  If your husband confided in you that he wished to transition to a woman and your only knowledge of the transgender experience was I Am Cait (as is the case for many Americans) what would your reaction be?   Would your instinct be to help?  Or to run in the opposite direction?   Based on what you've seen on this show, that is.

OMG, Millennium, this question is so hard.  I tried answering it many times and deleted it. I tried to answer this as honestly and I hope it doesn't offend or hurt anyone, I'm especially worried about talking about genitals on this forum, and the rules, and I don't want to trigger anyone. The rules are of course right so because it's no one's business how anyone genitals look... except their lover. First, watching Cait would have nothing to do with the decision.

 

Second, If I was with someone and happy sexually and then they revealed they were transgender, I'd be fine, I don't think it would change anything. If I'm attracted to someone and they revealed they are transgender I would want to try but I'd be scared to hurt them if the clothes came off and I couldn't do it. I mean I even have beauty standards to genitals and I am very genital orientated. I kinda blame my OCD and internalized ideas of what attractive is. I'm a millennial brainwashed by Hollywood person. I am borderline anorexic, I have a certain aversion to body hair and I remove all of mine beneath the eyebrows with Laser Hair Removal. My husband does the same, mostly to please me, I mean, he was already a swimmer who competed in college so it wasn't that hard to him, and he loves that I love his smooth body. Also, we're non-monogamous and a lot of girls are into it, he is fit and smooth and I love the way he looks and feels.

 

As for someone you are already married to deciding to transition, be the spouse male or female, that's another story. I am married to a man. I'm am also bisexual and have been in love with a woman. I would have been happy to marry her at the time we were together, I loved her (and was devastated when she broke up with me). I could easily see myself married to a woman just as easily as with a man. But while been attracted to men and women, I'm not attracted to all women or all men, I'm shallow and I'm ashamed to say this, I'm attracted to conventionally attractive people. I've only been attracted to gender-conformative people in my life, I was only attracted to femme women and non-effeminate men (I say this because “masculine man” may bring the image of huge bodybuilders who would treat me as damsel and I'm a feminist so no thank you, also I'm not into men that are too hairy or frat boys or jocks into football or basketball, because I think there's a whole culture there that I am uncomfortable with.). But If a partner, male of female, after we were together, decided to transition, I would be supportive and would not run the other way, but as far as staying romantically together with that person, it depends on if I was still sexually attracted to them after the transition. I can't say I would still be attracted to a partner, male or female, who I've fallen in love with before transition and then went to all this changes and surgeries. I mean, I loved my GF, her feminine body, her breasts and all of her, just as I love my husband, his smell, his voice, his penis. To fall for someone, to me, means fall for all they are, and I couldn't guarantee I'd still be sexually attracted to them after the surgeries and changes, which to me, is essential in a marriage. Otherwise, I would hope we would be close friends, and I would certainly try to help them to transition, probably as a friend. I'm only 27 and don't have kids and don't plan to have any. I'm also a very sexual person and have OCD. I don't even like body hair down there. I have a feeling all the surgeries would turn me off. I read the HP article about spouses who stayed, and one of them said there was no sex in the relationship, another seemed to be happy sexually (she was a lesbian woman married to transgender man) and the rest never mentioned their sex lives (as is their right since it is not our business). Cait said 30% of their spouses stayed and the longer the couple were together the higher the chances they would stay, so I think my youth and the weight I put on my sex life with my husband makes a lot of difference. I wouldn't expect my husband to stay with me if I transitioned either, he is straight, he's not attracted to men. I wish I could say I was more evolved and less shallow and set on what my partners should look like, but I'm not. Maybe it's my OCD and my fear of change, maybe it's internalised prejudices, like lookism.

 

But as we can see, many spouses choose to stay and there are many different people than me out there. Not that I judge people who leave, especially if it's about their sexual orientation. You are attracted to what you are attracted too and for many people, it's not transphobia but their sexual happiness in the relationship that makes them leave.

 

Just wanted to say I realize this is my problem, and I would never even get pregnant out of fear of what would do to my body. Because being bisexual, I feel I should be attracted to my husband if he transitioned, and I feel horrible, like I am an awful person that I would probably not stay, but I would certainly not run away and always be there for him platonically. While people who are straight, gay or lesbian would have more understandable reason to not stay. Also, part of my OCD is that I hate being lied to, very much, and that's because I come from a family of misogynist men who cheated and lied to their spouses, and I think I would feel betrayed by the lie to. The reason I'm non-monogamous is because of my family male models when you trust someone so much - and find out they were betraying your grandma (my grampa was more present than my dad, and my bio mom left so my grandparents were my first parents until my dad married and moved out with me). And a lot of uncles, my dad is a controlling sexist man, and to be honest, I always thought I would end up with a woman because I had problems trusting men, and in my marriage the rule is honest always. Even if you break the rules, come clean immediately. My OCD has probably something to do to how inflexible I am. 

 

Lastly, if my husband did no changes to his body and just cross-dressed sometimes, I would be fine with interacting with this other self, as long as it wasn't 24/7 and it didn't interfere with our sex life. I don't think that would diminish my attraction to him.

 

Edit: spelling/grammar/repeating things.

Edited by Dorne2.0.
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I have a question for anyone who feels up to it:  If your husband confided in you that he wished to transition to a woman and your only knowledge of the transgender experience was I Am Cait (as is the case for many Americans) what would your reaction be?   Would your instinct be to help?  Or to run in the opposite direction?   Based on what you've seen on this show, that is.

What would you do millennium? Just curious because the two of us seem the only ones willing to touch that subject.

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That's quite a reply, Dorne2.0.  Thank you for taking the time to commit it all to the page.

 

I give you credit for not immediately ruling out the possibility of being with a transgender person.    But at the same time, I could not condemn anyone who flat out said no.   In one of the episodes, Jenner seemed taken aback that a young man said he would not wish to be with a transgender woman, and I recall reading some comments afterwards which were critical of his position.

 

I think it's asking a lot of someone who has always been attracted to cisgender women to suddenly start dating a transgender woman if there is no pre-existing attraction to transgender people or interest in bisexuality.

 

No matter how successfully a transgender woman approximates the appearance of a cisgender woman, there will always be certain "tells" that indicate the gender into which they were born, be it voice, size of hands or feet, breadth of shoulders, thickness of waist, skin texture, hair patterns, comportment, gait, femininity, even diction .... and of course more intimate things, especially if they have not had sexual reassignment surgery.   Any or all of these can signal to a partner, consciously or subliminally, that the person they are with is, in some immutable ways, different from other members of the gender they present as.

 

While one may possibly be open-minded enough to get around it mentally (and more power to them if they can), biological reactions could prove a different matter, and completely out of their hands.    No matter how open-minded you may be, the heart wants what the heart wants.   I don't think anyone should be criticized if they can't make a romantic leap from cisgender people to transgender people.   It doesn't mean they're transphobic, it just means they're not wired that way.

 

I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings or cause discord.   I'm transgender and am simply sharing my perspective.

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That's quite a reply, Dorne2.0.  Thank you for taking the time to commit it all to the page.

 

I give you credit for not immediately ruling out the possibility of being with a transgender person.    But at the same time, I could not condemn anyone who flat out said no.   In one of the episodes, Jenner seemed taken aback that a young man said he would not wish to be with a transgender woman, and I recall reading some comments afterwards which were critical of his position.

 

I think it's asking a lot of someone who has always been attracted to cisgender women to suddenly start dating a transgender woman if there is no pre-existing attraction to transgender people or interest in bisexuality.

 

No matter how successfully a transgender woman approximates the appearance of a cisgender woman, there will always be certain "tells" that indicate the gender into which they were born, be it voice, size of hands or feet, breadth of shoulders, thickness of waist, skin texture, hair patterns, comportment, gait, femininity, even diction .... and of course more intimate things, especially if they have not had sexual reassignment surgery.   Any or all of these can signal to a partner, consciously or subliminally, that the person they are with is, in some immutable ways, different from other members of the gender they present as.

 

While one may possibly be open-minded enough to get around it mentally (and more power to them if they can), biological reactions could prove a different matter, and completely out of their hands.    No matter how open-minded you may be, the heart wants what the heart wants.   I don't think anyone should be criticized if they can't make a romantic leap from cisgender people to transgender people.   It doesn't mean they're transphobic, it just means they're not wired that way.

 

I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings or cause discord.   I'm transgender and am simply sharing my perspective.

 

Thank you for your kind and understandable response. I support transgender rights 100%, the right to use bathrooms with the gender they identify with and so on. I loved Jaz Jennings and Chaz Bono and think they are much better representatives than Caitlyn, even though they are both privileged as well, they don't seem as oblivious or self-centered as Cait. (Her conversation to Ellen about gay marriage, really? Didn't she think that would go well in the LGBT community? I hope Candis said something). Jazz's Family seems very well off and most of all loving and I wish every transgender kid had that. I made my mom watch "I am Jazz" and she cried when the Jazz read the youtube death threat online.

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It's best for me not to watch the Jazz show.   Too many mixed emotions.   But I know what you mean.

Edited by millennium.
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I'd actually like to see and hear Chandi's reaction to Cait's lukewarm non support of same sex marriage. And preferably her real reaction, not her toned down for t.v. reaction.

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It's best for me not to watch the Jazz show.   Too many mixed emotions.   But I know what you mean.

I just want to say they don't focus only on the negatives, on the contrary. Jazz is happy and so is her family, She is a very strong, intelligent, happy girl. But I can see your point, it could be triggering for some and many people has mixed feelings about it, mostly people concerned about her well being after so much exposure. Their family seem to want to be at the front of the transgender fight for civil and equal rights though and seem to genuinely want to help other kids like her. 

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I'd actually like to see and hear Chandi's reaction to Cait's lukewarm non support of same sex marriage. And preferably her real reaction, not her toned down for t.v. reaction.

" Oh Really Cait"?  (in that deep unaltered voice)

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I wish they came up with a better name for this show, something like "Call Me Caitlyn" (or Cait), or "The New Me" or something that isn't so generic as "I Am Cait". Especially since there is a "I Am Jazz" show (which is listed right under this on the board) that's about another transgender male to female. Are we going to be getting an assortment of "I Am ____" shows about transgender people?

How about "Not The Boy Named Sue" in reference of course to the Johnny Cash hit "A Boy Named Sue". According to a quote in an interview with second wife Linda Thompson, she frequently referred to herself as Heather around the house.

Edited by HumblePi.
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