True Detective (unspoiled) Speculation: Forget it Ray, it's Vinci.

What if Ani's abductor was Caspere? He was at her dad's commune, right? What if he abducted multiple children and whoever killed him was one of the victims? Maybe they were stalking him or investigating him while plotting revenge, found all this other stuff happening and decided to not only kill him but expose everything? It would explain the nature of his wounds.

Edited by badlemonnohope.

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The children are not good candidates for Birdman. Birdman has a thing about men who see something they shouldn't, or possibly for men who watch instead of doing anything about it. (Stan didn't stop Blake, Caspere didn't stop Mayor Jr.?) 

 

Man.  This is a REALLY good point.  And, remember Pitlor saying that Caspere liked "the young ones" and that he liked "to watch"?   This would easily explain his eyes and groin being blown out.

 

I am pretty convinced Birdman is a woman.  Maybe it could even be Ani's sister.  Ani has an alibi, is that right?

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I'm not saying that Laura/Erica is Chad's biological father, but she does have red hair.

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What if Ani's abductor was Caspere?

What if Caspere's murderer was Ani?

 

The way he was killed doesn't seem like it would be her MO. But, it would definitely make it seem like she would not be a suspect.

With Paul killed, all bets are off on the Three Detectives making it through this unscathed. So, I'm throwing it out there.

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Paul is alive. 

 

Paul is dead.

 

Don't believe me?

 

Play Revolution 9 backwards.

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Is there a master list of Plot Points The Finale Should Resolve?  (Or is there not enough server space in all of Utah for them?)

 

Serious question.

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Is there a master list of Plot Points The Finale Should Resolve?  (Or is there not enough server space in all of Utah for them?)

 

Serious question.

 

Gawd.  I could be typing all night.  Her's what I got so far....more later!

 

Frank

  • does he know about the blue diamonds
  • is Jordan loyal or not
  • will he kill Jordon if not
  • is Jordan pregnant
  • was he behind Caspere's murder in the first place
  • does he have some secret master plan that none of us are privy to as of yet?
  • does he walk away with Osip's 12 mill and the blue diamonds
  • does he get killed
  • is he working with Ray, against Ray, or just as we've seen - sometimes business partners?
  • does Frank even know about the blue diamonds
  • does Frank have the info Ray took from the reporter or does Blake have it

 

Ray

  • is he Chad's biological father
  • is he masterminding all of this
  • did he contribute to Paul's and Davis' deaths
  • is he working with Frank or against him or neither
  • is Ray's father involved?
  • is Ray working to avenge his father's pension issues

 

Caspere

  • What did he see and what did he do that warranted burnt eyes and a shot out groin?
  • Did the birdman/woman kill Caspere or was he/she just the driver?
  • Was the birdman/woman working with someone else?
  • Who has motive to kill Caspere? McCandless, the Osterman kids, sexual abuse victims (given the way he died), anyone else?

 

Ani

  • Is Ani's father involved
  • Is Ani's sister involved
  • Was Ani's abuser Caspere in younger days?

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▲Those questions are helpful.

 

Here's what I keep coming back to...

Who among our characters still cares about finding Caspere's murderer? Ani and Ray have much bigger things to concern themselves with at this point. Both are implicated in the deaths of other characters. Also, they may be more concerned with finding Paul's murderer rather than Caspere's. Frank, too, has other things to worry about: the $12 million and getting out of Dodge. The rest - Burris, Holloway, Chessani - never cared about solving this crime in the first place.

 

Finding Caspere's murderer isn't driving the plot any longer. However, finding the hard drive is crucial in tying all of this evil/corruption together and Caspere's murderer (and perhaps Ray's shooter) may have that hard drive. Frank seems to have forgotten about it. Why aren't Burris, Holloway, et al concerned about it?

 

Why isn't Ray wondering about who shot him? Has he even mentioned it again?

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There is little reason to think Frank knows anything about the blue diamonds, unless Ray mentioned them to him off screen.

We have no idea, except by inference, what Burriss/Holliday are thinking about the hard drive or the diamonds. Their primary goal has to be closing the Caspere case and making sure no one connects the diamonds to the Osterman robbery and lives to tell about it. I don't know who has the hard drive but think it is most important to McCandless and the corrupt AG running for governor. Vinci is a fiefdom unto itself and with the state bought off, Chessani and Vinci PD have less to lose from its contents coming to light. Supposedly respectable business people and politicians have more to lose.

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Regardless, the end has to be satisfying. Some of these questions have to be answered but not necessarily all. I fully expect to see an end similar to S1: some of the bad guys have to be brought to justice but not all of them. Evil will continue.

Hopefully, Burris goes down. (Can't shoot Paul in the back and get away with it.) I also expect that some will escape punishment (Chessani perhaps).

I don't particularly care who killed Caspere. I am more interested in who shot Ray and the whereabouts of the hard drive.

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I have never changed my initial impression that whoever killed Caspere shot Ray. It's hard to imagine, even from NP, that two people who wear crow masks are independently involved in two separate incidents relating to Caspere.

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I just rewatched the scene in which Ray gets shot as well as the previews for the finale.

 

The house in which Ray was shot had very specific animal masks on the wall - a horse, lion, bear, something I can't make out, and one missing - likely the raven.

 

There are five guys in the old photo at the river.  Could this be related?  e.g. a gang of 5 people each representing a different animal in some sort of wierd club formed back in their earlier years?  And, who is taking the picture?

 

Ideas:

  • Pitlor
  • McCandless
  • Chessaney
  • Caspere
  • Bart Sallis
  • Ani's Father

 

The cops, e.g. Frain, Halloway, Dixon are just thugs...not involved in a deep way.  They are just interested in the money whereas the guys in the photo have a wierd ritualistic kind of thing going on.

 

I'm not convinced the Osterman children killed Caspere.  Why the wierd camera in the backroom, why as noted above, a shot to the groin, and eyes burned out. Unnecessary.

 

When McCandless talks about a harddrive, it could be what we saw in this house - not video of the sex parties - that he is mostly worried about.

 

Plus, in the previews, we see Ani back at Pitlor's office (the scene in which she wears a cap and is pointing a gun).  We also hear Ray say he's had "enough confessions for day".  Could be we learn a lot from that visit to Pitlor???

 

I think the birdman is either Sallis or a girl.  If a girl, I think it could very well be Ani's sister - revenge for something or other.   The mask may mean nothing at all to her other than it was there and a convenient disguise when Ray walked in.   If Sallis, then there might be something more ritualistic involved.

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I have never changed my initial impression that whoever killed Caspere shot Ray. It's hard to imagine, even from NP, that two people who wear crow masks are independently involved in two separate incidents relating to Caspere.

Unless maybe the brother and sister?

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I was pondering the prevalence of redheads in this season: Jordan, Blake (Frank's henchman who was MIA), Ivar (Russian), and Chad (Ray's son). Then I remembered another character who is a redhead and it made me pause....Caspere's assistant. IMDB says the character's name is Erica Johnson and she's played by Courtney Halverson (there's a pic here if you don't remember the character - http://www.imdb.com/media/rm3096701440/nm1237541?ref_=nm_phs_md_1).

It made me think about where we've seen her character. The detectives first interview her after Caspere's death and then they ran into her again on the movie set when they were looking for the car. Now I'm suspicious of her.....but I haven't gotten much farther than that as to my theory about what she may be up to....

Just bumping my own post from page one - if Erica is Laura (the sister from the jewelry heist) and is Caspere's killer, I want to be super annoying and pat myself on the back for being suspicious of the character weeks ago. Edited by MyPeopleAreNordic.

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I have never changed my initial impression that whoever killed Caspere shot Ray. It's hard to imagine, even from NP, that two people who wear crow masks are independently involved in two separate incidents relating to Caspere.

 

Most likely, yes. Presumably, the shooter was there to get the hard drive and go. Then, Ray showed up. Oops! The shooter decides to send a warning to Ray (and whoever he is working with/for) not kill him. It is just a bit coincidental that this individual was there at the exact moment that Ray was. 

 

I am interested to see what Frank's role will be and what happens when he and Ray cross paths again.

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I have never changed my initial impression that whoever killed Caspere shot Ray. It's hard to imagine, even from NP, that two people who wear crow masks are independently involved in two separate incidents relating to Caspere.

Well, there are a lot of Game of Thrones fans out there

 

 

I just rewatched the scene in which Ray gets shot as well as the previews for the finale.

 

The house in which Ray was shot had very specific animal masks on the wall - a horse

Dothraki

 

lion

House Lannister

 

bear

House Mormont

 

something I can't make out, and one missing - likely the raven.

The Citadel if it's a raven, or The Night's Watch if it's a crow.

Perhaps the conspiracies have nothing to do with the land deals, the orgies and the blue diamonds. Perhaps it's all an elaborate plot to get George Martin to finish the damn books.

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I know I keep coming back to Jordan, but I had an idea.

 

They've made sure the audience knows Casper and the woman killed in the cabin both had gonorrhea. Gonorrhea untreated causes infertility (among other things). Jordan is infertile. A shot to the groin to the man who gave it to her, (presumably in the past) would be about right.

 

I also think Frank brought her in to see the dead henchman to gauge her response. It wouldn't surprise me if she with him AND has the hard drive. Jordan, the ultimate kingpin. Redemption for the a writer who can't write strong women characters.

 

Of course, I'm probably all wrong.

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The person driving that black car with Caspere appeared to have cigarette in their mouth and it looked like a man's chin. I could of sworn I saw the mouth of the person through the sideview mirror the 2nd time I watched the episode.

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After this season I feel like I've been permanently inoculated against ever finding another show's story arc to be complicated or confusing. From here on, it will always be: At least it's not as bad as season 2 of True Detective.

I already find myself saying that about other shows currently airing, like Murder in the First.

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After this season I feel like I've been permanently inoculated against ever finding another show's story arc to be complicated or confusing. From here on, it will always be: At least it's not as bad as season 2 of True Detective.

I already find myself saying that about other shows currently airing, like Murder in the First.

I have been trying to figure out if I think TD is a good show or not a good show.  I am completely sucked in to S2 and I've grown fond of the characters.  So Nic + team is doing something very, very right in that regard.  Still, it wasn't until last week that all the characters and plots became clear to me ... and there is only one episode left. And I think that is very, very bad.

 

I've been having flashbacks of when I read War and Peace and I think I figured out my "feelings" about TD!

 

An old boyfriend suggested recording character names and relationships on a sheet of paper when reading War and Peace for the first time.   If I recall correctly, I had to get past the first 200 pages or so (if not more), before the characters and story lines clicked and I didn't have to refer to the cheat sheet anymore.  It was a difficult start but my boyfriend said to hang in there because the story was amazing once all that backdrop was established.  

 

Once the characters clicked for me, I had another 800 pages or so to enjoy and engage in the main story line. Some of the characters that were introduced in the beginning weren't prominent characters in the remainder of the story and others were, but it all served as important backdrop for the "real" story.

 

With TD, NicP+ team introduced us to the plethora of characters at the same time he was unraveling the story lines.  It was just too much.  Compare with Vince Gilligan's Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul.  The backdrop and characters were established well before the meat of the story kicked into high gear.

 

An additional factor is the fact that we are watching TV and not reading a book.  With a book, people don't skip lines (I don't anyway), but with TV, if I get a cup of coffee, I miss really important points of the story.  If things were spread out a little more, I could catch up.

 

And, probably most importantly, I'm not so sure we even know what the main story is with TD.  Is it Caspere's death? The corruption? Frank's story? Ray's story? etc.  There really are too many unknowns to make even the plot line clear.

 

I guess the best I can say is that watching the show is both entertaining and frustrating at the same time.

Edited by Jextella.

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Thanks for that recap.  It helped a lot.  I sent it to a friend tonight who was as confused as I am/was. 

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Slate has a pretty good recap of the season thus far and some speculation for the finale, for dummies like me who have watched each episode and still dunno WTF is going on: http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2015/08/03/true_detective_season_two_a_guide_to_the_plot_of_this_confusing_season.html

So that is what's going on??

I wonder if Nic P added the Mexican drug gang because after he was three quarters through with the script, someone pointed out that it was set in California, and California used to be part of Mexico, so ethnically there should be Mexican players rather than Russian Israelis, but rather than rewrite out the guys with the Russian accents...

I keep trying to tell myself that IRL things are really this complicated--but I don't think so.

It also seems like maybe the sex parties were thrown in just because it's HBO.

And the religious hippy commune also seems like something off of a Cali check list. Maybe it was initially supposed to be more of a focus--to make season 2 similar to the popular season 1--but then blue diamonds appeared along with all the other not-quite red herrings, along with the not-quite Russians and the Mexican drug lords, neither of whom would have likely had anything to do with a hippy commune.

Jextella, I read War and Peace about 30 years ago and do not recall it being this complicated--or at least not this disjointed. Maybe there were too many joints involved in the writing of this script?

Edited by shapeshifter.

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Slate has a pretty good recap of the season thus far and some speculation for the finale, for dummies like me who have watched each episode and still dunno WTF is going on: http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2015/08/03/true_detective_season_two_a_guide_to_the_plot_of_this_confusing_season.html

Thank you so much for that. I especially appreciated the photos of who all these people are.

Here's the speculation part:

Next week’s 90 minute—yes! 90 minute—finale should involve Velcoro and Bezzerides trying to find Laura and Leonard and going to the Feds “or CNN” with the conspiracy, because if they don’t, they are going to be murdered by Burris and Holloway et al. The finale should also find Frank using lots of guns to try and steal $12 million from Osip and Catalyst before fleeing the country for Venezuela with his wife Jordan, who, just for kicks, might betray him.

Is there any real reason to think Jordan (Kelly Reilly) is disloyal?

Only because that part is so god awful, that might make it more interesting, on paper anyway.

Edited by editorgrrl.

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It's true.  I think a lot of us after last week jumped right to Jordan betraying Frank, just because otherwise we have wasted our time watching her.

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my expectations for tonight are very low, because the S1 finale was unsatisfying.

Frank gets away, Ray is vindicated and gets to have a relationship with his son, unfortunately Ani killed a guy, so she either ends up, on the run, dead or in jail.

I will be pleasantly surprised if we get any sort of resolution at all.

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If only one person gets away it better be Ani. But l'm looking for Ray and Ani to use those tickets that Frank purchase for that trip. I like Frank but I'm not invested in his happily ever after with Jordan, who cares. Somebody is using those tickets and I don't think it's Frank which is why he had to go to a travel agent in this day and age, just so viewers could hear her say that pretty much anyone could use them.

 

I also don't see any of the characters that have any integrity or ones that you might root for remaining in that LA, VInci, Ventura, or anywhere this story is taking place. The whole place is destroyed there is no future there and no justice. So yeah Ray, Ani, Frank, not so sure about Jordan, don't know if I trust her, but the other three either have to end up dead like Woodrough or free. But they aren't going to be cleared at this point. There just too much corruption even at the federal level.

Edited by represent.

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My feelings about tonight's finale are not unlike going to the dentist for a cleaning and checkup.

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My feelings about tonight's finale are not unlike going to the dentist for a cleaning and checkup.

 

The show is odd that way!  Painful but I'll tune in 'till the end.

 

Ok...one more thought before tonight's show...keeping in mind a few things:

 

  • In S1, the killer ended up be somewhat random relative to the leads the detectives followed 99% of the time (anger-inducing for me!).
  • Nic doesn't roll with "trick" endings - including cult-like things, etc.  Instead, he chooses to focus on the evil in regular people (not that lawnmower man was normal)
  • the song lyrics talk about living among you, well disguised and I could not hate the way you hate.

 

Who has motive that involves money? 

  • McCandless
  • Osip
  • Jordan
  • Bart Sallis (possibly)

 

Who has motive in a way that they would want to burn eyes, shoot a groin, and let him bleed out?

  • A sexual abuse victim - potentially Jordan, Ani's sister, Ani
  • someone who knows how to let someone bleed out - Ani

 

Who talks about hatred as referenced in the song?

  • Ani's sister and father claim Ani is an angry person and they don't like it.  Again, maybe Ani's sister

 

Who has motive to kill Caspere in the ways noted above AND drop him off at the Catalyst sign hours away?

  • Jordan?

 

I keep circling back to Sallis or a woman - Ani's sister aligns with the clues the most I think.  Jordan next, and then Ani.  Ani might be top of the list except I'm not sure Nic would have someone so obvious be the guilty party under his "no trickery" rule. 

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Who is Bart Sallis? I don't recognize his picture.

 

My predix:

 

-Frank scams the Russians but dies in the end. Ray and Ani take his tickets to Venezuela, and perhaps some cash.

-Laura and Leonard killed Caspere; they are his assistant Erica and Set Photographer

-One of them kills Burriss, thus saving Ray and/or Ani. They get the diamonds and escape with them

-Vinci continues corrupt; we see a montage of the railroad built and the rail corridor thriving as McCandless smirks; Geldof becomes governor.

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Bart Sallis was the construction manager who Frank shook down in episode 3.  He first appeared in ep1 at the rail announcement gala; Frank & Jordan greeted him and then, after they walked away, Blake said something to him.  Here is a good rundown on Bart Sallis, especially this gif.

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Bart Sallis was the construction manager who Frank shook down in episode 3.  He first appeared in ep1 at the rail announcement gala; Frank & Jordan greeted him and then, after they walked away, Blake said something to him.  Here is a good rundown on Bart Sallis, especially this gif.

The link you provide here is the theory that stuck with me most so far this seasn.  Makes a TON of sense.

 

But the method of the death speaks too much to revenge killing which leads me to think a girl (plust some of the imagery of the birdman)>

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  • In S1, the killer ended up be somewhat random relative to the leads the detectives followed 99% of the time (anger-inducing for me!).
  • ...
  • the song lyrics talk about living among you, well disguised and I could not hate the way you hate.

Who has motive in a way that they would want to burn eyes, shoot a groin, and let him bleed out?

  • A sexual abuse victim - potentially Jordan, Ani's sister, Ani
  • ...
Who has motive to kill Caspere in the ways noted above AND drop him off at the Catalyst sign hours away?

  • Jordan?
Given this reasoning, I'd tweak this:

My predix:

-Frank scams the Russians but dies in the end. Ray and Ani take his tickets to Venezuela, and perhaps some cash.

-Laura and Leonard killed Caspere; they are his assistant Erica and Set Photographer

-One of them kills Burriss, thus saving Ray and/or Ani. They get the diamonds and escape with them...

to Jordan being the killer of Caspere (and shooter of Ray) instead of Laura and Leonard, but L&L can off Burriss. Edited by shapeshifter.

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Does Ray die tonight, like this?

“I see you running through the trees. You’re small. The trees are like giants. Men are chasing you. You ain’t that fast. Oh, son. They kill you. They shoot you to pieces.”

Edited by jonk.

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Does Ray die tonight, like this?

“I see you running through the trees. You’re small. The trees are like giants. Men are chasing you. You ain’t that fast. Oh, son. They kill you. They shoot you to pieces.”

 

I hope not....perhaps NicP would consider this too obvious?!?!?

 

The only ending that would make me happy is for Frank, Ray, and Ani to a) live and b) see justice served.

 

I am loving the actors in their roles.  All 3 of the who remain are really, really great.

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Set photographer for the win! Called by me in this thread as a possible Birdman on July 20.

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Set photographer for the win! Called by me in this thread as a possible Birdman on July 20.

Gawd.  I called that one as too obvious.  Silly me. I never get these things right, though.  Although at the end, I was really mostly interested in Frank.  GLad I only ready about his demise rather than watching it. It would have been too heart breaking for me.

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Despite the misdirections and withheld information, nothing about TD2 was anything but obvious. Every trope of the TV cop procedural trotted out and used.

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really was a poor season.  the overall mystery was convoluted and just uninteresting.  the script was also very weak.  it also had a huge (albeit overrated) season 1 it had to follow.  it really suffered from alot of miscues.

 

i would like to see a season 3 only if they can make this better but tough to see how they can without overhauling the production/writing staff.

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i would like to see a season 3 only if they can make this better but tough to see how they can without overhauling the production/writing staff.

That would be a Ray Donovan move. Fire the creator (Biderman) and hope for the best....

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