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Relationships: Speed Dating

6 hours ago, Trini said:

I mean - they knew about it way beforehand, they heard the backlash and complaints (not just from fangirls on the internet, but critics in the media), and the fact that this pivotal milestone for the leads happened essentially offscreen and they still haven't tried to rectify it is just astounding. Again, an example of their priorities.

Berlanti's priority is making money with those crossovers. He wants The Flash fans to watch the other shows, but I think that he hurt The Flash with that particular stunt. At minimum, he could have had Barry and Iris marry in front of their family and friends in the West house or outside STAR Labs like Ronnie and Caitlin did after the crossover, but apparently he can't be bothered. Hey, as long as we keep watching he doesn't care.

I watched the YT clips. I really liked scenes with Barry and Iris the morning before the wedding and Joe's toast. The church wedding was pathetic. The church was about a third full so they didn't bother paying enough extras to fill it. Having Mick sit next to David and his husband was inappropriate humor. The Nazi's dropping in was the height of ridiculousness. Why would they choose to attempt to capture Kara when there are all these superheroes around was just... Felicity deciding to barge into Barry and Iris' wedding was the final insult. The whole thing was just poorly conceived.

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1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

He wants The Flash fans to watch the other shows,

I agree.  My takeaway in the aftermath of the crossovers is that it seems Arrow is the one that seems to get more real estate and it is that one they want to get people to watch more of.  I've always felt that the network or Berlanti or whomever, that Arrow is their firstborn and Arrow is the apple of their eye.  But Flash has been the highest rated show on the entire network since it premiered,  And some seasons Arrow really struggled even falling behind Legends in the 2016-2017 season.  So they use The Flash to get eyeballs on the other shows.   They introduced Kendra, Stein and Jackson all on The Flash before using the second crossover to jumpstart Legends.  Also think about how many members of Team Arrow have come over to The Flash over the years:  Oliver, Felicity, Thea, Diggle, Diggle's wife, Laurel, Laurel's dad, some of them have come when there was no official crossover.  Now think or how many Flash cast have crossed over to other shows?  Only Barry, Cisco and Caitlin.  

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1 hour ago, DearEvette said:

I've always felt that the network or Berlanti or whomever, that Arrow is their firstborn and Arrow is the apple of their eye.

It's Marc Guggenheim who seems to have the most influence/power when it comes to the crossovers.  "Arrow" is his darling and that's why "Arrow" gets the primary focus during the crossovers starting in S2 of "The Flash".
 

Spoiler

 

In S1 of "The Flash" in the 1x8 crossover, there was balance and respect for both casts. However, after "The Flash" superseded "Arrow" in ratings and critical praise, it seems like Marc has made it his mission to make "Arrow" have the spotlight in these crossovers and to try to tarnish "The Flash" somehow. He had Iris literally twirling in her STAR Labs chair in one scene of the S4 crossover - how disrespectful!  Not to mention having Diggle vomit on the site of WA's wedding. His ego can't take that his show was eclisped by another.

Some suspect that, because EBR spoke against Marc on Twitter last year about the issue of reverse sexism, it explains why Felicity wasn't as heavily featured in this year's crossover.  

 

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On 1/14/2019 at 2:41 PM, DearEvette said:

I agree.  My takeaway in the aftermath of the crossovers is that it seems Arrow is the one that seems to get more real estate and it is that one they want to get people to watch more of.  I've always felt that the network or Berlanti or whomever, that Arrow is their firstborn and Arrow is the apple of their eye.  But Flash has been the highest rated show on the entire network since it premiered,  And some seasons Arrow really struggled even falling behind Legends in the 2016-2017 season.  So they use The Flash to get eyeballs on the other shows.   They introduced Kendra, Stein and Jackson all on The Flash before using the second crossover to jumpstart Legends.  Also think about how many members of Team Arrow have come over to The Flash over the years:  Oliver, Felicity, Thea, Diggle, Diggle's wife, Laurel, Laurel's dad, some of them have come when there was no official crossover.  Now think or how many Flash cast have crossed over to other shows?  Only Barry, Cisco and Caitlin.  

But Arrow, Supergirl, and LOT have never been able to keep The Flash's audience from crossover. I even read an interview when one of the producers admit that the different shows, especially The Flash has a different audience that doesn't intersect with the other shows.

 

On 1/14/2019 at 4:09 PM, adora721 said:

It's Marc Guggenheim who seems to have the most influence/power when it comes to the crossovers.  "Arrow" is his darling and that's why "Arrow" gets the primary focus during the crossovers starting in S2 of "The Flash".
 

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In S1 of "The Flash" in the 1x8 crossover, there was balance and respect for both casts. However, after "The Flash" superseded "Arrow" in ratings and critical praise, it seems like Marc has made it his mission to make "Arrow" have the spotlight in these crossovers and to try to tarnish "The Flash" somehow. He had Iris literally twirling in her STAR Labs chair in one scene of the S4 crossover - how disrespectful!  Not to mention having Diggle vomit on the site of WA's wedding. His ego can't take that his show was eclisped by another.

Some suspect that, because EBR spoke against Marc on Twitter last year about the issue of reverse sexism, it explains why Felicity wasn't as heavily featured in this year's crossover.  

 

 I thought that Guggenheim was fired or demoted or something. He is still around?

Edited by SimoneS.
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50 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

But Arrow, Supergirl, and LOT have never been able to keep The Flash's audience from crossover. I even read an interview when one of the producers admit that the different shows, especially The Flash has a different audience that doesn't intersection with the shows.

 

 I thought that Guggenheim was fired or demoted or something. He is still around?

"Former Arrow showrunner Marc Guggenheim, who is spearheading this year’s crossover, shared another image of Shipp in costume and revealed that the suit was made by The Flash‘s (2014) costumer designer Kate Main."  EW article .

Marc and AJK co-wrote the stories for all the episodes of "Crisis on Earth X" 

"As executive producers Marc Guggenheim and Andrew Kreisberg explained in September, ..."

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4 hours ago, adora721 said:

This mention of Kreisberg reminds me. When I was watching Trajectory (2x16), I was again skeeved out by Iris' boss, Scott, thinking that her asking him to have coffee was her hitting on him. It made me think about how slimy and perverted Kreisberg was behind the scenes all those years that he was co-showrunner. I remember a lot of the fans as well as the entertainment media calling out Scott and the show for sexual harassment when the episode aired. Kreisberg explains how that episode was allowed to be written.

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I just dont believe Flash wants to focus on Barry and Iris the way Arrow does with their main couple . Arrow actually delayed the happily reunion for the crossover after they were seperated for the first 7 episodes in the current season, the couple was also seperated for almost 1 whole season during their break-up. They wrap up the Iris/Barry stories where they face any issues very easily and tidy in a span of 1 episode. There definetely needs to be more of a build up for Iris/Barry to receive a story arc throughout the crossover. This is why i never believed the Crisis on Earth X was ever gonna be about Westallen, it was just the event to get all the heroes at once place when the attack happens. It was gonna focus on Oliver, which the showrunners already said beforehand.

Also Kreisberg admitted that the only reason they made Arrow is to make Flash and that Berlanti cried regarding the death of Flash storyline. That is the apple of their eye and they do not want to sully it. That is why conveniently there was no evil version of Barry on Earth X or any mention of Iris. 

The idea behind these crossovers usually comes from Berlanti. It was his idea to do the double wedding. And the flash writers knew about that 1 year in advance and they still decided not to make at least a celebration for their couple. They rather focused their energy trashing people on another show. The same the flash writers always talk shit about Oliver since the first crossover. 

If you speak about ratings one also has to aknowledge that Flash is geared towards the kids and family and it was always more popular character. I never read the comics but i knew about him, only knew GA from Smallville. Also the CW doesnt care about boosting Arrow. Which was evident during hiatus, when it couldnt even do the promo it did for the rest of the DCTV show on the CW. Or you really that upset about that one poorly made poster of Oliver in prison Arrow got this season. They just use Arrow to boost the new shows, this year it was all about Batwoman. 

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2 hours ago, Velocity23 said:

and it was always more popular character

I think, from my perspective, that Flash is a more popular character because he is a founding member of the original team that makes up The Justice League. I'm not too familiar with the comics, and I only know I love and adore Wally West's Flash from Justice League/Justice League Unlimited because of Michael Rosenbaum's wonderful portrayal. Green Arrow has always been a second string hero in the Comics, from what I have read and what others have said. Berlanti and Guggenheim couldn't have Batman, so they made Arrow, "their" Batman---usurping a majority of the plots and villains that were Batman's, for their Oliver. I like both shows. And it's such bullshit that Flash is geared more toward children. Yeah, nothing tells me it's a kids show than constantly showing the murder of Barry's mom, and the unrelenting stabbing and "death" of Iris. But can't show Barry and Iris having sex! Oh noooo. It would traumatize the kiddies. Give me a fucking break.

Edited by GHScorpiosRule.
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6 hours ago, Velocity23 said:

This is why i never believed the Crisis on Earth X was ever gonna be about Westallen, it was just the event to get all the heroes at once place when the attack happens. It was gonna focus on Oliver, which the showrunners already said beforehand.

Well, one showrunner.
 

6 hours ago, Velocity23 said:

I just dont believe Flash wants to focus on Barry and Iris the way Arrow does with their main couple . Arrow actually delayed the happily reunion for the crossover after they were seperated for the first 7 episodes in the current season, the couple was also seperated for almost 1 whole season during their break-up. They wrap up the Iris/Barry stories where they face any issues very easily and tidy in a span of 1 episode.

I agree that The Flash and Arrow have different approaches to their main couple. Looking at recent seasons, I think that The Flash is more interested in Barry & Iris as a unit, while Arrow prefers Oliver and Felicity as individuals. --In both shows title characters take precedence, though.

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8 hours ago, Velocity23 said:

The idea behind these crossovers usually comes from Berlanti. It was his idea to do the double wedding. And the flash writers knew about that 1 year in advance and they still decided not to make at least a celebration for their couple. They rather focused their energy trashing people on another show.

The writers on all these shows are given storyboards and plot direct to write the crossover episodes which comes from Berlanti ultimately so I don't believe that The Flash or any of the Arrowverse writers have any or much control over how WestAllen or Oliver are portrayed in these episodes.  The Flash writers' giving Iris passive aggression dialogue about Felicity and Oliver barging in on their wedding and having Barry put their gift in the return pile was a huge tell, IMO, that they were not happy that WestAllen's big romantic wedding was stomped during the crossover, but there was nothing that they could about it.

 

8 hours ago, Velocity23 said:

The same the flash writers always talk shit about Oliver since the first crossover. 

7 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I think, from my perspective, that Flash is a more popular character because he is a founding member of the original team that makes up The Justice League. I'm not too familiar with the comics, and I only know I love and adore Wally West's Flash from Justice League/Justice League Unlimited because of Michael Rosenbaum's wonderful portrayal. Green Arrow has always been a second string hero in the Comics, from what I have read and what others have said. Berlanti and Guggenheim couldn't have Batman, so they made Arrow, "their" Batman---usurping a majority of the plots and villains that were Batman's, for their Oliver. I like both shows. 

The Flash is a A level DC superhero just under the A+ superheroes, Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman. I always see a lot of Arrow fans upset when Flash characters make negative comments about Oliver and emphasize his darkness, but IMO, this is part of Berlanti giving Arrow some attention on the higher rate Flash and attempting to give Arrow/Oliver some of Batman's comic superhero rep. One running theme in the comics is that lots of people think that Batman is a dangerous and crazy vigilante. He isn't beloved in Gotham or elsewhere like the Flash is in Central City. Hell, even among Batman comic fans, there is a neverending debate about Batman's mental health in part due to how he has been written by various writers over the years, especially Frank Miller.   

 

7 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And it's such bullshit that Flash is geared more toward children. Yeah, nothing tells me it's a kids show than constantly showing the murder of Barry's mom, and the unrelenting stabbing and "death" of Iris. But can't show Barry and Iris having sex! Oh noooo. It would traumatize the kiddies. Give me a fucking break.

I don't think that originally that The Flash was geared to toward children, but it does have an unusually high number of 12 to 17 year old viewers similar to what you find with teen shows on FreeForm. It doesn't justify portraying Barry and Iris as this PG rated couple though because I swear, I have seen more steamy love scenes on those FreeForm shows.

Edited by SimoneS.
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5 hours ago, SimoneS said:

The Flash writers' giving Iris passive aggression dialogue about Felicity and Oliver barging in on their wedding and having Barry put their gift in the return pile was a huge tell, IMO, that they were not happy that WestAllen's big romantic wedding was stomped during the crossover, but that there was nothing that they could about it.

I totally agree. However, I wish Barry had spoken those passive aggressive lines. Having Iris say them only gave haters more reasons to hate her and made it seem like she alone had a problem with Olicity stealing their wedding thunder. In the book about the wedding, Barry makes it clear he didn't like what Olicity did either. How many people read the book vs watched the show? Seems the writers like to make Iris a target for unreasonable hatred while protecting "sensitive" Barry from similar venom. Barry should have said those words on the TV show because Oliver and Felicity are his friends; he had every right to dislike their behavior throughout the entire crossover. 

5 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I don't think that originally that The Flash was geared to toward children, but it does have an unusually high number of 12 to 17 year old viewers similar to what you find with teen shows on FreeForm. It doesn't justify portraying Barry and Iris as this PG rated couple though because I swear, I have seen more steamy love scenes on those FreeForm shows.

Agreed. The audience's young age never prevented steamy Lana and Clark sex (making earthquakes), Lana and Lex sex (ew!), and Lois and Clark sex. So, I cry foul on it being a kid's show as the reason for limited WestAllen romance scenes.

Edited by adora721.
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1 hour ago, Trini said:

I agree that The Flash and Arrow have different approaches to their main couple. Looking at recent seasons, I think that The Flash is more interested in Barry & Iris as a unit, while Arrow prefers Oliver and Felicity as individuals. --In both shows title characters take precedence, though.

Adding on to this a bit: you can see the different approaches just in this season where both shows are dealing with family, and the children of the main couple, yet the stories are very different -- which isn't bad, or to say that one is better than the other (even though the writers have). It's not a competition, both couples/shows are what they are.

But about the crossovers specifically; I think the issue is that, especially in the last two, the writers didn't feel the need to give Barry any real conflict and/or growth. While Oliver still has lessons to learn, I guess. Then all that follows into their relationships with their significant others.

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Frankly, I blame everyone for what happened with the wedding. Berlanti, Guggenheim, Kreisberg, Helbing. All of them. I'm not sure if the Flash writers room could suggest a reception for Barry and Iris on their own show. If so, I blame them too. The interrupted honeymoon and the forgotten anniversary were the cherry on top of a very bitter cake. After all of this no Barry-X was the one thing that redeemed the crossover. I would have rioted if they dared give us TWO interrupted weddings, no reception, no honeymoon AND an alternate Barry kissing Overgirl and being racist to Iris in the span of a crossover.

I don't care how people try to rationalize it. Barry and Iris are not the supporting characters in the Oliver and Felicity's love story and they shouldn't be treated as such. They are not Diggle or any other Arrow supporting character. They are protagonists. Treating them and their wedding as props to Olicity or anyone else is distasteful no matter the context. This has nothing to do with comics and ratings. Barry and Iris are protagonists regardless of any of that. So are Oliver and Felicity. And Kara and Alex, etc. The first crossover worked much better because they established parallels between the two couples but both couples were put on the same level. There was no propping of one couple at the other's expense.

The family show excuse for the lack of steamy scenes is a bunch of crap. I wholeheartedly agree with that.

I would blame Nora and the rushed engagement for the lack of fluffy romance scenes if the writers gave me any indication that they were willing to write those for WA in 3A. They didn't. The Flashpoint scenes were adorable and so were the ones in The New Rogues but we didn't get anything outside of that. They managed to give WA two interrupted dates and no love scene though. When they were just boyfriend and girlfriend. I think part of this has to do with the target audience being made up of a lot of men ( who are not expected to like romance ) and the other part has to do with Iris being black. I'm not going to sugarcoat it.

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6 hours ago, Trini said:

Adding on to this a bit: you can see the different approaches just in this season where both shows are dealing with family, and the children of the main couple, yet the stories are very different -- which isn't bad, or to say that one is better than the other (even though the writers have). It's not a competition, both couples/shows are what they are.

When it comes to The Flash, I see DC's finger prints all over the show. DC has a lot of money invested in The Flash movie under development so isn't about to let Berlanti and his subordinates do whatever they want. Also, Johns has insisted that The Flash adaptation stay close to his Rebirth and it has. Not only is Barry and Iris' relationship a huge deal in the comics, but so is the bond among the different generations of The Flash family and we have been getting that on the show. 

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5 hours ago, Starry said:

I think part of this has to do with the target audience being made up of a lot of men ( who are not expected to like romance )

Men may not be "supposed" to like romance (the reality being debatable) but they like sex; for the average (straight) male viewer being able to fantasize that he's a superhero with a hot girlfriend or girlfriends whom he can tongue kiss and more is a draw. He might not be interested in Iris's journalism career (again debatable but for the sake of argument...) but you can be damn sure that he will be interested in visual confirmation that Barry is, to put it crudely, tapping that ass. Whatever reason the Flash has for not including WA sexytimes, it's not because it doesn't appeal  to straight men. (And yes this includes, disgustingly enough, racist men).

Edited by ursula.
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12 hours ago, SimoneS said:

The writers on all these shows are given storyboards and plot direct to write the crossover episodes which comes from Berlanti ultimately so I don't believe that The Flash or any of the Arrowverse writers have any or much control over how WestAllen or Oliver are portrayed in these episodes.  The Flash writers' giving Iris passive aggression dialogue about Felicity and Oliver barging in on their wedding and having Barry put their gift in the return pile was a huge tell, IMO, that they were not happy that WestAllen's big romantic wedding was stomped during the crossover, but there was nothing that they could about it.

 

Honestly if the Arrow couple can get a 8-10 minute reception the episode following the crossover, so could the Flash. They could have easily tied it with the plot. 

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8 hours ago, ursula said:

Men may not be "supposed" to like romance (the reality being debatable) but they like sex; for the average (straight) male viewer being able to fantasize that he's a superhero with a hot girlfriend or girlfriends whom he can tongue kiss and more is a draw. He might not be interested in Iris's journalism career (again debatable but for the sake of argument...) but you can be damn sure that he will be interested in visual confirmation that Barry is, to put it crudely, tapping that ass. Whatever reason the Flash has for not including WA sexytimes, it's not because it doesn't appeal  to straight men. (And yes this includes, disgustingly enough, racist men).

I agree. I was thinking more about the fluffy romance moments like dates, wedding receptions, honeymoon, etc. I don't believe straight men are necessarily uninterested in watching those things but I wouldn't be surprised if the people in charge of this show are convinced that they are. It's wrong because it's not like the WA-heavy episodes registered significant drops in ratings or were critically panned. The average Reddit fanboy who whines about ships taking over the show any time the LI has more than five minutes of airtime does not speak for the majority.

I've been binge-watching Smallville and that show has a lot of romance. It's also a show that lasted ten years. I haven't payed attention to the rating though, was Smallville a PG show? Because it has enough sexy moments. The family show excuse can explain the lack of nudity, thrusting and things like that but not the nothing we have been getting so far. These characters and actors deserve better.

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9 hours ago, ursula said:

Men may not be "supposed" to like romance (the reality being debatable) but they like sex; for the average (straight) male viewer being able to fantasize that he's a superhero with a hot girlfriend or girlfriends whom he can tongue kiss and more is a draw. He might not be interested in Iris's journalism career (again debatable but for the sake of argument...) but you can be damn sure that he will be interested in visual confirmation that Barry is, to put it crudely, tapping that ass. Whatever reason the Flash has for not including WA sexytimes, it's not because it doesn't appeal  to straight men. (And yes this includes, disgustingly enough, racist men).

 

Agreed. Nothing like the female lead "half naked" or in sexy underwear in a sex scene to glue the eyes of hetero men to the screen.  
 

7 hours ago, Velocity23 said:

Honestly if the Arrow couple can get a 8-10 minute reception the episode following the crossover, so could the Flash. They could have easily tied it with the plot. 

The point that I have been making is that Barry and Iris should have had their own wedding on their own show in front of their family and friends, not have a wedding hijacked by another couple on some other show as part of a ratings stunt to get Flash fans to watch the other Arrowverse shows. Also, not sure how a reception could have been tied to the plot given that the episode following the crossover was set weeks after Barry and Iris got back from their honeymoon, only for Barry to be kidnapped and then arrested for murder by the end of the episode. I do understand why Berlanti ignored the wedding though after the crossover. If Flash fans got anything wedding-related after the crossover, they would be unlikely to watch the next crossovers.

Edited by SimoneS.
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1 hour ago, Starry said:

I agree. I was thinking more about the fluffy romance moments like dates, wedding receptions, honeymoon, etc. I don't believe straight men are necessarily uninterested in watching those things but I wouldn't be surprised if the people in charge of this show are convinced that they are. It's wrong because it's not like the WA-heavy episodes registered significant drops in ratings or were critically panned. The average Reddit fanboy who whines about ships taking over the show any time the LI has more than five minutes of airtime does not speak for the majority.

I've been binge-watching Smallville and that show has a lot of romance. It's also a show that lasted ten years. I haven't payed attention to the rating though, was Smallville a PG show? Because it has enough sexy moments. The family show excuse can explain the lack of nudity, thrusting and things like that but not the nothing we have been getting so far. These characters and actors deserve better.

The unfortunate "elephant in the room" is that it's an interracial couple. Perhaps TPTB believe that they pushed the envelope enough with WA hugs, kisses, and implied sex (in S3) and that is all that their audience can tolerate for an IR couple.

Like you, I too prefer fluffy romance than outright sex scenes. My mother always said that you start making love when you're out of the bedroom with how you talk, touch, kiss, play, romance, and flirt with each other. The actual sex is just the final step in that process.  

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16 minutes ago, adora721 said:

The unfortunate "elephant in the room" is that it's an interracial couple. Perhaps TPTB believe that they pushed the envelope enough with WA hugs, kisses, and implied sex (in S3) and that is all that their audience can tolerate for an IR couple.

So were Iris and Eddie. And we got plenty of sexy times with them.

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32 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

So were Iris and Eddie. And we got plenty of sexy times with them.

Actually, when I did the re-watch, I noticed that there was only one scene of Iris and Eddie in bed. Most of their kissy and touchy scenes occurred when Barry could see them and be jealous. 

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7 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Actually, when I did the re-watch, I noticed that there was only one scene of Iris and Eddie in bed. Most of their kissy and touchy scenes occurred when Barry could see them and be jealous. 

Also, Eddie wasn't the lead, he was a disposable a character that we didn't know much about and the audience wasn't suppose to love because he was hurting the leading man we are suppose to love and root for, because he took his girl. I enjoyed Eddie because of the way he loved Iris but that's it. Putting a black woman with a white character the audience is suppose to dislike doesn't really interfer with the audience members CW caters to but does make the black character get more hate from the jump. 

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37 minutes ago, SevenStars said:

 Putting a black woman with a white character the audience is suppose to dislike doesn't really interfer with the audience members CW caters to but does make the black character get more hate from the jump. 

True, but I have noticed that regardless of race, a segment of the audience, especially women, always turn on the lead love interest, the minute she rejects the hero's advances.

Edited by SimoneS.
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15 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

True, but I have noticed that regardless of race, a segment of the audience, especially women, always turn on the lead love interest, the minute she rejects or refuses the hero's advances.

True, so basically Iris had almost everything working against her. Like I said before, Candice acting and those who fought for Iris from the jump are Iris' saving grace. 

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2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

So were Iris and Eddie. And we got plenty of sexy times with them.

"Plenty"? I only recall one moment in a morning bedroom scene with Iris in a negligee on top of Eddie briefly that lead to nothing.

Please give examples of "plenty"? I rewatched S1 last summer and seriously don't recall  plenty of sexy times.

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4 hours ago, SimoneS said:

The point that I have been making is that Barry and Iris should have had their own wedding on their own show in front of their family and friends, not have a wedding hijacked by another couple on some other show as part of a ratings stunt to get Flash fans to watch the other Arrowverse shows. Also, not sure how a reception could have been tied to the plot given that the episode following the crossover was set weeks after Barry and Iris got back from their honeymoon, only for Barry to be kidnapped and then arrested for murder by the end of the episode. I do understand why Berlanti ignored the wedding though after the crossover. If Flash fans got anything wedding-related after the crossover, they would be unlikely to watch the next crossovers.

And Oliver and Felicity should have gotten more than a tacked on I do next to vomit without Oliver's son present and shouldn't have had their stable relationship put in question because the storyline needed some romance and drama.  All that stuff about Felicity not believing in marriage came from nowhere.  Both couples gave up stuff to make the crossover more interesting.  Barry and Iris still got all the prewedding stuff, the wedding trappings,  the guests, the decorated church, a random future daughter, and then later, the vows.  All they sacrificed was the minute or so they had to wait after they'd done everything on the Wedding I do list but kiss the bride. 

The crossover dictated to both shows how their weddings were going to go down.  One wasn't greatly favored over the other during the crossover but when the couples were back in the strict control of their own shows, only Arrow gave their fans their own special moment alone to celebrate them as a married couple. The Flash chose to highlight their new status with comedy and to make  disparaging comments that were IMO in poor taste.  I'd be more upset with how The Flash chose to treat Iris and Barry's marriage (as joke fodder) than how it went down in the crossover.     

It would have been extremely simple for The Flash to throw Barry and Iris a private gathering after their honeymoon since they missed out on their reception.  There could have been more toasts, cutting a cake, a dance, fancy clothes, longing looks and even repeated vows.  They could have built much of the episode around it.  Barry even leaves a gathering so he can go and get arrested.   The seeds are right there. It would have been so simple for them to work it into the plot had they actually cared enough to do it.  I don't know why The Flash writers thought complaining about the crossover wedding was more important than actually delivering a special moment for Barry and Iris.  What a waste of an opportunity.    

Quote

I've been binge-watching Smallville and that show has a lot of romance. It's also a show that lasted ten years. I haven't payed attention to the rating though, was Smallville a PG show? Because it has enough sexy moments. The family show excuse can explain the lack of nudity, thrusting and things like that but not the nothing we have been getting so far. These characters and actors deserve better.

 

Smallville avoided too much sexy until after the characters were supposed to be 17-18.  There was a great amount of gross excitement from the show runners when Lana was "legal"  So like season 4 and on.  But even there, the sexy was never that sexy.  

49 minutes ago, adora721 said:

"Plenty"? I only recall one moment in a morning bedroom scene with Iris in a negligee on top of Eddie briefly that lead to nothing.

Please give examples of "plenty"? I rewatched S1 last summer and seriously don't recall  plenty of sexy times.

Lol, that's a whole lot more than Iris and Barry got for many years even after they were dating.  Even after they were living together.  But then most I've heard from agree that season one they weren't leaning into the younger demographic as much as they have later on.  

 

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

True, but I have noticed that regardless of race, a segment of the audience, especially women, always turn on the lead love interest, the minute she rejects the hero's advances.

In Iris's case, I heard very little against her character for many years, mostly it was "she's too good for Barry"  or "Eddie treated Iris so much better".  the moment in season one when she said screw destiny and chose Eddie and his implied proposal was so empowering and frankly romantic.  Barry was barely managing to come off as a good friend to Iris at that point.  And he couldn't even manage that most of season two where his solution to dealing with Iris's grief over Eddie was to pretty much ignore her.  He and Patty were cute at times but Barry was such a self centered tool then that I was happy when she dumped him and left.  Patty deserved better.  And I really didn't like how they restarted the Iris Barry romance with them kind of shrugging and saying oh well, destiny.  Season two is not a good look for their romance.  

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1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

And Oliver and Felicity should have gotten more than a tacked on I do next to vomit without Oliver's son present and shouldn't have had their stable relationship put in question because the storyline needed some romance and drama.  All that stuff about Felicity not believing in marriage came from nowhere.  Both couples gave up stuff to make the crossover more interesting.  Barry and Iris still got all the prewedding stuff, the wedding trappings,  the guests, the decorated church, a random future daughter, and then later, the vows.  All they sacrificed was the minute or so they had to wait after they'd done everything on the Wedding I do list but kiss the bride. 

I only care about Barry and Iris because I am a Flash fan and I only watch The Flash. I don't watch Arrow so I don't care what Oliver and Felicity should have gotten. I didn't appreciate them barging in on Barry and Iris' wedding and their mugs blocking Barry and Iris' kiss. 

 

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

e for The Flash to throw Barry and Iris a private gathering after their honeymoon since they missed out on their reception.  There could have been more toasts, cutting a cake, a dance, fancy clothes, longing looks and even repeated vows.  They could have built much of the episode around it.  Barry even leaves a gathering so he can go and get arrested.   The seeds are right there. It would have been so simple for them to work it into the plot had they actually cared enough to do it.  I don't know why The Flash writers thought complaining about the crossover wedding was more important than actually delivering a special moment for Barry and Iris.  What a waste of an opportunity.    

Like I said, Berlanti likely didn't let Barry and Iris have any wedding celebration after the crossover because If Flash fans got anything wedding-related after the crossover, they would be unlikely to watch the next crossovers. It was his way of saying watch my low rated shows or you will miss out on major Flash events.

Edited by SimoneS.
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34 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Barry and Iris still got all the prewedding stuff, the wedding trappings,  the guests, the decorated church, a random future daughter, and then later, the vows.  All they sacrificed was the minute or so they had to wait after they'd done everything on the Wedding I do list but kiss the bride. 

 

35 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I'd be more upset with how The Flash chose to treat Iris and Barry's marriage (as joke fodder) than how it went down in the crossover.    

I am upset at both. Equally. Some of the things you mentioned, the guests, the decorated church, is scenery. The prewedding stuff was used to both prop Olicity and spotlight Kara's failed relationship with Mon-El. When the girls are getting their nails done they start talking about Iris but then the conversation immediately shifts to Felicity and Kara. Same with Barry and Oliver trying on their tuxedos. Iris didn't speak one word during the rehearsal dinner. Barry had time to listen to Kara's relationship woes though. Joe made the speech about himself. Jax and Stein had their own drama going on. The rehearsal dinner was also used to start Oliver and Felicity's crossover story. WestAllen were treated as background scenery. These characters could have been at a random guest star's prewedding festivities and not much would have changed. I am not saying they should have made the crossover exclusively about WestAllen but if it were the other way around, with Olicity getting WA's crossover story their fans would have been upset. I'm sorry but they would.

There were only a couple things they did good which were Barry getting Iris breakfast in bed, Barry looking at Iris' walk down the aisle and the vows ( Olicity didn't have traditional vows but still said nice things to each other so it's not like that was one thing WA had that OF didn't ).

 

59 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

 In Iris's case, I heard very little against her character for many years, mostly it was "she's too good for Barry"  or "Eddie treated Iris so much better".  the moment in season one when she said screw destiny and chose Eddie and his implied proposal was so empowering and frankly romantic.  Barry was barely managing to come off as a good friend to Iris at that point.  And he couldn't even manage that most of season two where his solution to dealing with Iris's grief over Eddie was to pretty much ignore her.  He and Patty were cute at times but Barry was such a self centered tool then that I was happy when she dumped him and left.  Patty deserved better.  And I really didn't like how they restarted the Iris Barry romance with them kind of shrugging and saying oh well, destiny.  Season two is not a good look for their romance.  

Except most people who were saying that Iris was "too good for Barry" and that "Eddie treated her so much better" were shipping Barry with Caitlin in s1 and switched to Patty in s2. Caitlin and Patty were not considered worse than Iris nor did Barry treat them better ( I actually think he treated them worse... ). I was on SM and was reading the message boards back then and this is what was happening with most IrisEddie fans.

Not all anti-WA viewers have to hate Iris. That still doesn't mean they don't hate/dislike/resent her getting the main LI role. This happens for multiple reasons including the fact that some people, both men and women, prefer to watch a story where the girl is the one getting the guy instead of the other way around.

About Eddie and Iris, I never hated Eddie nor did I resent the ship but the screw destiny thing came out of the left field considering what was happening in the previous episodes. It was a nice thing to give his fans before killing off Eddie but I am not going to forget what came before. The second season was WA at their lowest. They were trying too hard to erase s1 WA in 2A ( with the screw destiny line paving the way ) which resulted in the uninspired way they put them back in each other's orbit in 2B.

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7 minutes ago, Starry said:

I am upset at both. Equally. Some of the things you mentioned, the guests, the decorated church, is scenery. The prewedding stuff was used to both prop Olicity and spotlight Kara's failed relationship with Mon-El. When the girls are getting their nails done they start talking about Iris but then the conversation immediately shifts to Felicity and Kara. Same with Barry and Oliver trying on their tuxedos. Iris didn't speak one word during the rehearsal dinner. Barry had time to listen to Kara's relationship woes though. Joe made the speech about himself. Jax and Stein had their own drama going on. The rehearsal dinner was also used to start Oliver and Felicity's crossover story. WestAllen were treated as background scenery. These characters could have been at a random guest star's prewedding festivities and not much would have changed. I am not saying they should have made the crossover exclusively about WestAllen but if it were the other way around, with Olicity getting WA's crossover story their fans would have been upset. I'm sorry but they would.

There were only a couple things they did good which were Barry getting Iris breakfast in bed, Barry looking at Iris' walk down the aisle and the vows ( Olicity didn't have traditional vows but still said nice things to each other so it's not like that was one thing WA had that OF didn't ).

The bolded sentence made me roll my eyes hard. Where was Cisco in that moment? You know, Cisco, Barry's best friend who has stood with him in every adventure.

Barry and Iris' wedding was used to get Flash fans to watch that crossover and it still ticks me off.  

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18 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Like I said, Berlanti likely didn't let Barry and Iris have any wedding celebration after the crossover because If Flash fans got anything wedding-related after the crossover, they would be unlikely to watch the next crossovers. It was his way of saying watch my low rated shows or you will miss out on major Flash events.

We will have to agree to disagree on the likelihood of this being why they didn't get any special moments written in. It would explain why they couldn't elope beforehand but not why they couldn't have something afterward.  I mean, it's not like the crossover this year really had any special moments in it that they lured in Westallen fans with.  They thought the appeal was in swapping Oliver and Barry.  Berlanti might shoot down a plot line but a few scenes showcasing the happy couple after his big crossover, there's no reason to believe he'd overrule the showrunner on something like that.  If that was the case you'd never see any happy WA moments on the Flash.  

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17 minutes ago, Starry said:

 I am not saying they should have made the crossover exclusively about WestAllen but if it were the other way around, with Olicity getting WA's crossover story their fans would have been upset. I'm sorry but they would.

There were only a couple things they did good which were Barry getting Iris breakfast in bed, Barry looking at Iris' walk down the aisle and the vows ( Olicity didn't have traditional vows but still said nice things to each other so it's not like that was one thing WA had that OF didn't ).

 

My point is that Arrow and Olicity fans DID have reasons in the Crossover to be upset and were but that Arrow, the show, then soothed a great deal of the sting over what we missed out on (all the stuff WA got for many months leading up to the wedding not to mention all those scenery scenes that are being discounted as having value) by what Arrow did next .  Which I guess let us focus on all the positive things that did happen in the crossover.  Though I honestly think that was already where the focus was even before we got the reception.  The writers just underlined that feeling in the next episode by concentrating on another thing to be positive about.  I wish The Flash had leaned toward positivity as well.  

I have always watched both Arrow and The Flash from the start (I watch all the shows) and have been rooting for WA since some point in season three and I put the larger blame on not getting a moment on the people behind The Flash than the crossover since all storylines must bow to the greater narrative there and they wanted a twist ending.  So I really don't get why Olicity gets scapegoated with all the hate instead of the ones that robbed any future spotlight from WA after they knew they wouldn't stand alone at the end of the crossover.  Or at least I don't understand how Oicity are still the ones being blamed for something that had nothing to do with Arrow.      

 

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Joe made the speech about himself.

Lol, he really did.  I was laughing aloud over that. 

 

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Except most people who were saying that Iris was "too good for Barry" and that "Eddie treated her so much better" were shipping Barry with Caitlin in s1 and switched to Patty in s2.

That was not my experience. The promos before the show IMO started gave the impression there was going to be something between Barry and Caitlin but the actual show just never did anything with them.  I know I forgot about them pretty quickly as a possibility and I know I stopped seeing anyone wanting SnowBarry after a couple episodes in season one.  By the end, everyone I knew shipped Iris and ANYONE BUT BARRY and Barry with no one.  Maybe his mom, lol.  

 

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Not all anti-WA viewers have to hate Iris.

Most that I've found loved Iris but just thought Barry was the worst.  

Quote

That still doesn't mean they don't hate/dislike/resent her getting the main LI role. This happens for multiple reasons including the fact that some people, both men and women, prefer to watch a story where the girl is the one getting the guy instead of the other way around.

Personally I don't mind who gets who but I need them to put a tiny bit of effort into it.  Just loving from afar isn't reason enough for them to someday come around and start dating.  The one needs to show WHY they are winning them over.  Not just have it happen one day. It was clear Barry loved Iris but the show did a very poor job explaining why Iris settled for Barry in season two when he was being so standoffish.  I really thought in season two they'd play up their best friend status, especially with Patty coming into the picture.  They did use that just a tiny bit but not to any proper extent.  

Quote

About Eddie and Iris, I never hated Eddie nor did I resent the ship but the screw destiny thing came out of the left field considering what was happening in the previous episodes. It was a nice thing to give his fans before killing off Eddie but I am not going to forget what came before. The second season was WA at their lowest. They were trying too hard to erase s1 WA in 2A ( with the screw destiny line paving the way ) which resulted in the uninspired way they put them back in each other's orbit in 2B.

I thought giving Iris more a say in her future was one of the better things they did for Iris in season one, a season that had way too many misogynistic tendencies surrounding Iris, like Joe refusing to let Barry tell a grown woman for fear the danger she could be in or again Joe, telling Eddie he couldn't tell her the truth, something that would have smoothed their relationship, unless he was her husband and until then, Joe decided.  And didn't he at one point start talking about who she was going to marry?  Ugh.  They really were creepy about some of that stuff. 

Iris taking control and making her own decision was a good moment.  Sure, if the tsunami incident replayed itself, she might again have had feelings in that moment, but those feelings didn't erase the feelings she had for Eddie.  Like she told Barry.  She was with Eddie.  So I found that I thought Barry was more naive about what had happened (before it was erased) than it was out of the blue for Iris not to choose Barry. At that time.  

41 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

The bolded sentence made me roll my eyes hard. Where was Cisco in that moment? You know, Cisco, Barry's best friend who has stood with him in every adventure.

Barry and Iris' wedding was used to get Flash fans to watch that crossover and it still ticks me off.  

Take the wedding out and fans will still watch when their characters show up in the crossovers.  They used the wedding like the comics use weddings, to set the stage for an adventure.  It's still a wedding.  It's not like they deceived anyone and Barry and Iris didn't get married.  

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1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

My point is that Arrow and Olicity fans DID have reasons in the Crossover to be upset and were but that Arrow, the show, then soothed a great deal of the sting over what we missed out on (all the stuff WA got for many months leading up to the wedding not to mention all those scenery scenes that are being discounted as having value) by what Arrow did next .  Which I guess let us focus on all the positive things that did happen in the crossover.  Though I honestly think that was already where the focus was even before we got the reception.  The writers just underlined that feeling in the next episode by concentrating on another thing to be positive about.  I wish The Flash had leaned toward positivity as well. 

Olicity fans already knew they were getting the reception when the crossover aired. Olicity fans didn't have to watch their couple have their rehearsal dinner hijacked by everyone else's drama, they didn't have to watch their couple's wedding get interrupted by a hate group, they didn't have to watch their impromptu ceremony get interrupted again, this time by friends, whose heads blocked their first kiss as husband and wife. Our experiences are different. I don't think it's fair to expect WA fans to not be upset at how things played out. I've said it before, I am mad at my own show as well. This doesn't mean that I have to excuse the crossover for treating my favorite couple like props. If the crossover events had been different, there would have been nothing for the Flash writers to rectify.

As for the bolded, I'm not discounting anything. The stuff that we got leading up to the wedding was what? A cut scene? The bachelor/bachelorette parties with 0 WA scenes that turned out to be a Caitlin/KF episode that had Iris cheerlead on the woman who helped a lunatic kill her? The impromptu wedding after a funeral that got ridiculed left and right? The rehearsal dinner with once again 0 WA scenes? There were some things that we got that were really beautiful, there were a lot of other things that were hijacked by someone else's drama and had Barry and Iris in the background. Was the Olicity's reception hijacked like this?

 

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

So I really don't get why Olicity gets scapegoated with all the hate instead of the ones that robbed any future spotlight from WA after they knew they wouldn't stand alone at the end of the crossover.  Or at least I don't understand how Oicity are still the ones being blamed for something that had nothing to do with Arrow.     

I blame all the showrunners/producers. I blame the Flash writers as well. As characters, Olicity are getting blamed because they were rude. If Barry and Iris had pulled that stunt they wouldn't have gotten a pass. Iris wasn't given a pass for having feelings about it. She was still being called an entitled petty bitch months after that, here, on the Flash board.

 

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

That was not my experience. The promos before the show IMO started gave the impression there was going to be something between Barry and Caitlin but the actual show just never did anything with them.  I know I forgot about them pretty quickly as a possibility and I know I stopped seeing anyone wanting SnowBarry after a couple episodes in season one.  By the end, everyone I knew shipped Iris and ANYONE BUT BARRY and Barry with no one.  Maybe his mom, lol. 

By the end of s1? Because when Patty arrived the IrisEddie fans hopped on that train despite their supposed dislike of Barry. Not to mention the shipping with Kara and in some cases Felicity, despite some of them being Olicity fans. I've seen a lot of shipping Barry and Iris with anyone but each other, and I have seen it from Barry "haters". We've had very different experiences.

 

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

Sure, if the tsunami incident replayed itself, she might again have had feelings in that moment, but those feelings didn't erase the feelings she had for Eddie.  Like she told Barry.  She was with Eddie.  So I found that I thought Barry was more naive about what had happened (before it was erased) than it was out of the blue for Iris not to choose Barry. At that time. 

It's not about Iris choosing Barry at that time. It's about the show pretending the previous episodes didn't exist. I don't mean the tsunami one. I mean the Grodd one with Iris admitting to Barry that he was right, that she had been thinking about them but that she was with Eddie and she couldn't do that anymore. I'm talking about Eddie dumping Iris because there were three people in that relationship and deep down she knew that too. Iris didn't have feelings for Barry only in the tsunami moment, the show pretending like that was the case in the s1 finale and 2A was bad writing. Iris was a woman in a relationship with a man she loved who also had romantic feelings for her BFF. They should've explored that in 2A instead of the crap we got.

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Official Post

This thread is for relationships on The Flash.  It is not the place for Flash vs Arrow, Barry/Iris vs Oliver/Felicity, or the crossovers.  Keep your posts on topic.

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A few good Caitlin/Cisco / KillerVibe moments in the last episode:

tumblr_pler9p1a1U1uqw734o6_540.gif

It's just too bad their subplot had unnecessary conflict.

It might be cool (heh) to see Cisco and Caitlin turn romantic, but then I realized it would actually be a threesome with Killer Frost, so I'm less interested. (But be prepared to see me swing back in the other direction if they keep giving them romance teases, LOL)

I kinda want to talk about Cisco's speech about wanting a wife and kid, and that he can only do that without powers, but... it was just so out of character, and almost the opposite of what we've seen before that I'm not sure it can be taken seriously. We'll see if they revisit this later, but right now I'm side-eyeing that whole thing.

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On 6/23/2018 at 2:41 PM, BeautifulFlower said:

You know it's kinda sad that Barry and Iris are the only ones who didn't become friends through him being The Flash. This show needs more friendships outside of Star Labs.

And yet there are those who think Iris only wants Barry because of his powers; they call her a "Speed Force Digger"! Like really? As if Barry had no meaning until Cisco and Caitlin into his life. Barry was a scientific oddity to study for Cisco and Cait until he chose to use his powers to save others.

13 hours ago, Starry said:

They didn't need forty minutes to come to the conclusion metas have the right to choose.

Totally agree. I don't recall Cisco ever implying he'd force a cure on anyone. And Cait should know him well enough after all these years to know Cisco would never do that. In fact, when Cisco brought Killer Frost the cure Julian and her mother created in S3, Cisco gave her the choice; he never forced Killer Frost to take it.

Edited by adora721.
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49 minutes ago, adora721 said:

Totally agree. I don't recall Cisco ever implying he'd force a cure on anyone. And Cait should know him well enough after all these years to know Cisco would never do that. In fact, when Cisco brought Killer Frost the cure Julian and her mother created in S3, Cisco gave her the choice; he never forced Killer Frost to take it.

Edited 46 minutes ago by adora721.

Normal Cisco would never do that unless people were in real danger but the episode's pod Cisco that suddenly hates his powers and thinks they'll keep him from ever having a family, that dude was completely implying he was going to get the cure and use it on everyone.  It even sounded like he was going to take Barry's powers. Which makes no sense but was how they were trying to sell it.  

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28 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

that dude was completely implying he was going to get the cure and use it on everyone.

Completely disagree. Nothing in his statement about curing everyone implied that he would force the cure on them. He said it could give meta-humans a chance at a normal life and then he mentioned Fallout's negative impact of giving people around him radiation poisoning. Again, just rewatched; Cisco didn't imply force at all; simply an option. 

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8 hours ago, adora721 said:

Completely disagree. Nothing in his statement about curing everyone implied that he would force the cure on them. He said it could give meta-humans a chance at a normal life and then he mentioned Fallout's negative impact of giving people around him radiation poisoning. Again, just rewatched; Cisco didn't imply force at all; simply an option. 

I think both Cisco and Caitlin were being short-sighted and selfish about it. Like I said before, they should have come to the conclusion that they were there to give metas a choice in their first scene, not after an entire episode of contrived drama. If Cisco had been implying that the cure would be an option, he would have reassured Caitlin after she had said that not everyone wanted a normal life. Instead he stood there in silence and let her walk away. In his scene with KF he agreed with her that he was going to save them all. Neither Cisco nor Caitlin were thinking about choices and options until their last scene, with Caitlin being the first to come around and see things from the other's POV. It's strange because I like Cisco much better than Caitlin but she ended up being the more reasonable one. 

I think the show approached the issue from the wrong angle. They should have been clear that the cure would be a choice in their first scene and worry more about it falling into the wrong hands. The could have discussed the ethical ramifications of stripping villains of their powers unless they had no other choice. Villains or not, the powers are still a part of them and there's a difference between containing them so they can't use them to hurt others and taking them away for good.

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7 hours ago, Starry said:

I think both Cisco and Caitlin were being short-sighted and selfish about it. Like I said before, they should have come to the conclusion that they were there to give metas a choice in their first scene, not after an entire episode of contrived drama. If Cisco had been implying that the cure would be an option, he would have reassured Caitlin after she had said that not everyone wanted a normal life. Instead he stood there in silence and let her walk away. In his scene with KF he agreed with her that he was going to save them all. Neither Cisco nor Caitlin were thinking about choices and options until their last scene, with Caitlin being the first to come around and see things from the other's POV. It's strange because I like Cisco much better than Caitlin but she ended up being the more reasonable one. 

I think the show approached the issue from the wrong angle. They should have been clear that the cure would be a choice in their first scene and worry more about it falling into the wrong hands. The could have discussed the ethical ramifications of stripping villains of their powers unless they had no other choice. Villains or not, the powers are still a part of them and there's a difference between containing them so they can't use them to hurt others and taking them away for good.

Again, I disagree.

Wanting to "save us all" in no way implies force or lack of consent. And allowing Caitlin to walk away without reassuring her doesn't mean anything either.  Cisco is probably shocked that Caitlin could think such a horrible thing about him.

It's Caitlin who's misinterpreting Cisco's intentions because, once again, she's making it about her (surprise, surprise). She's not even recalling that she has no dark matter to take away, so this isn't a threat to her.  I'm not sure why anyone would see this scenario or interpret Cisco's intentions from Caitlin's clouded POV.  Caitlin is inherently selfish; Cisco is not. If I'm giving anyone the benefit of the doubt in this scenario, I'm giving it to Cisco, the one who didn't try to murder his friends when he got his powers.  The worst thing Cisco has done is making the cold gun for Snart, which was under serious duress from the threat to murder his brother, Dante. I can even understand Cisco making the cold gun in the first place since he didn't know if Barry would be good or evil when he was first getting to know Barry - that was prudent.

Let's take a step back. When Cisco mentions that the dagger shards removed dark matter from his tissue, it's Caitlin who says, "If we could synthesize that into a serum, we could get rid of Cicada's powers entirely." Caitlin verbalizes getting rid of Cicada's power without Cicada's consent - i.e., by force as a weapon. However, Cisco thinks beyond its use as a weapon by saying we can make a meta-human cure. Then, Cisco clarifies that someone like Fallout, who gives people radiation poisoning, would benefit from such a cure. This line gives support to Cisco using the cure to help those who need it (like Fallout) or  who want a cure to be normal like himself. 

Cisco points out that, " Those metas, we created them against their will. " When Caitlin blames Thawne, Cisco reminds her about the metas created by them shattering the satellite. I'm surprised Cisco didn't mention creating the Bus Metas last season, also against their will.  Cisco says, "This cure could give meta-humans a second chance at having a normal life. " Note the use of the words, "could give"; that's not the words you use when considering using force or not allowing consent.

Additionally, I think we should focus on the fact that Killer Frost destroyed a promising weapon against the seriel killer, Cicada, all because she (and Caitlin) are selfish. Caitlin was the one who saw it as just a weapon against Cicada, but Killer Frost destroys it. This allows Cicada more time to continue his murderous acts. Sure, Caitlin took Cisco to Icicle's lab, but who's to say that Icicle didn't sabotage his work after he escaped? Cisco and Caitlin will now have to start from scratch to create a different kind of cure based on DNA (since Icicle's research was about DNA) instead of a cure based on dark matter. A DNA cure would most definitely be a threat to Killer Frost. How ironic that Caitlin and KF were worried about the dark matter cure being a threat to them.

And because we know that Barry and Ralph

Spoiler

go looking for a weapon in the criminal underworld

in an upcoming episode, we can assume that Cisco and Caitlin haven't succeeded in using Icicle's research yet to use against Cicada. So, KF and Caitlin put Team Flash backward or at least stalled progress against stopping Cicada. And instead of focusing on how much of a liability KF and Caitlin are in this situation, we're discussing how Cisco, who supported Caitlin for years even after she tried to murder him, is turning into the kind of person who would ever force people to take a cure against their will. That's what I find crazy about this discussion. That's not the Cisco Ramon we've seen in the last 5 seasons.

Edited by adora721.
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2 hours ago, adora721 said:

Wanting to "save us all" in no way implies force or lack of consent. And allowing Caitlin to walk away without reassuring her doesn't mean anything either.  Cisco is probably shocked that Caitlin could think such a horrible thing about him.

It's Caitlin who's misinterpreting Cisco's intentions because, once again, she's making it about her (surprise, surprise). She's not even recalling that she has no dark matter to take away, so this isn't a threat to her.  I'm not sure why anyone would see this scenario or interpret Cisco's intentions from Caitlin's clouded POV.  Caitlin is inherently selfish; Cisco is not. If I'm giving anyone the benefit of the doubt in this scenario, I'm giving it to Cisco, the one who didn't try to murder his friends when he got his powers.

I am not interpreting Cisco's intentions from Caitlin's POV because I disagree with Caitlin as well. I am basing my opinion on what was said in the episode. I think Cisco letting Caitlin walk away without reassuring her means a lot. Even if I go by your assumption that he was shocked that Caitlin would have such a low opinion of him, he did absolutely nothing to change her mind. He could have verbalized that he was working on this cure to give metas options, that he was upset and disappointed that Caitlin would think such a horrible thing about him. He didn't. The only time the word choice came up was at the end, when Caitlin established that they wouldn't force the cure on anyone as a ground rule.

I can't base my opinion on Cisco's past actions and characterization. I agree that this is not the Cisco we know but that doesn't mean I have to fill the gaps to justify his behavior. He was written OOC for the sake of drama. It's something that happens all the time with fictional characters.

I am not giving either Cisco or Caitlin the benefit of the doubt. I think Caitlin/KF was being selfish as well. She took the choice out of Cisco's hands when she sabotaged his work. I lean more on Caitlin's side because she was the first to come around. She looked at things from Cisco's POV and tried to make amends. Though it's still crappy that she needed an entire episode to understand that a meta cure could be a positive thing as long as metas were given the right to choose.

 

2 hours ago, adora721 said:

Let's take a step back. When Cisco mentions that the dagger shards removed dark matter from his tissue, it's Caitlin who says, "If we could synthesize that into a serum, we could get rid of Cicada's powers entirely." Caitlin verbalizes getting rid of Cicada's power without Cicada's consent - i.e., by force as a weapon. However, Cisco thinks beyond its use as a weapon by saying we can make a meta-human cure. Then, Cisco clarifies that someone like Fallout, who gives people radiation poisoning, would benefit from such a cure. This line gives support to Cisco using the cure to help those who need it (like Fallout) or  who want a cure to be normal like himself.

To be fair, Cicada doesn't want his powers. He hates all metas, himself included. He said he was going to kill himself after getting rid of all the other metas.

 

2 hours ago, adora721 said:

Additionally, I think we should focus on the fact that Killer Frost destroyed a promising weapon against the seriel killer, Cicada, all because she (and Caitlin) are selfish. Caitlin was the one who saw it as just a weapon against Cicada, but Killer Frost destroys it. This allows Cicada more time to continue his murderous acts. Sure, Caitlin took Cisco to Icicle's lab, but who's to say that Icicle didn't sabotage his work after he escaped? Cisco and Caitlin will now have to start from scratch to create a different kind of cure based on DNA (since Icicle's research was about DNA) instead of a cure based on dark matter. A DNA cure would most definitely be a threat to Killer Frost. How ironic that Caitlin and KF were worried about the dark matter cure being a threat to them.

This is true. It would be interesting if the show acknowledged that Caitlin/KF may have shot herself in the foot by destroying Cisco's work and bringing him to her dad's lab to make amends. I doubt the writers are this sophisticated though. I bet this is another plot hole and we were meant to believe a cure based on dark matter would be a legitimate threat against KF, even though it shouldn't as they've just established she's immune to Cicada's powers.

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56 minutes ago, Starry said:

I am basing my opinion on what was said in the episode.

What exact words were said that made you think Cisco was going to force metas to take the cure? What words did he say that indicated lack of consent? Only Caitlin brought up consent or force at the very end. Seriously, did I really miss lines of dialogue in which Cisco said he was going to force the cure on people without their consent? I'd really like to know so I can amend my opinion.

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1 hour ago, Starry said:

I can't base my opinion on Cisco's past actions and characterization. I agree that this is not the Cisco we know but that doesn't mean I have to fill the gaps to justify his behavior. He was written OOC for the sake of drama.

Maya Angelou said, "When people show you who they are, believe them." There are rules established in any work of fiction, which includes characterization, that helps us navigate the fictional landscape. Some rules can and should change, but a person's basic character remains the same unless there's an important reason for a radical shift.  We should be able to look back on someone's personality, beliefs, actions, words, morals, etc. that have been established for 5 years in order to recognize what is and what is not OOC.

Cisco's deep concern about his powers is not OOC. He's had anxiety about those powers since he started having visions towards the end of S1. He was scared that, because they came from Thawne, the powers would turn him evil. He even said that in early S2 after Harrison Wells outed him to the team. Yes, he learned to accept and enjoy them, but that doesn't mean he can't recognize there's a serious drawback to having them now. Even the loss of Cynthia might be a reason for him to return to his former trepidation about his powers and the impact on his life. Plus he's seen the affects it's having on Barry's life.

Let's look back at Caitlin Snow. In S1, Caitlin found Ronnie alive, but in a mentally chaotic and a physically disheveled state. Ironically, Ronnie was in a situation kinda similar to Caitlin's KF situation; Ronnie also had a second personality living inside himself. After Ronnie pushed her away; she quickly gave up.  She then said to Barry that she wished Ronnie had died in the PA explosion. Caitlin Snow - medical doctor, who's been trained to put patient welfare above all else, said she wished a human being would have died in the PA explosion. Caitlin Snow - fiancé to Ronnie Raymond, who called Ronnie the love of her life, wished Ronnie would have died in the PA explosion. That statement alone was the first clue that Caitlin Snow was morally, emotionally, and psychologically questionable, if not corrupt. When things get tough, Caitlin Snow will look out for herself; this was established in S1. It was Cisco Ramon who pursued Ronnie to get him help despite Ronnie's and Caitlin's protestations and eventually Caitlin got on board.

S2 writing was much kinder to Caitlin's characterization, except that Zoom could tell she had darkness in her.  We next see signs of Caitlin's pathological selfishness blazing in S3 with the hell she put her friends through while trying to rid herself of KF. In S4, she worked for human slave trafficker, Amunet Black, instead of staying with her friends to get help. Later in S4, she decides she wants KF back and puts Cynthia's life at risk to make that happen. Now, in this episode of S5, she turns on Cisco trying to make it seem as if he's the one who'd use force against innocent people; that's her MO, not Cisco's.

These acts, words, beliefs, etc.  over 5 years show me that Cisco Ramon is a more trustworthy person than Caitlin Snow. They've shown me who they are, and I believe them.

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25 minutes ago, adora721 said:

What exact words were said that made you think Cisco was going to force metas to take the cure? What words did he say that indicated lack of consent? Only Caitlin brought up consent or force at the very end. Seriously, did I really miss lines of dialogue in which Cisco said he was going to force the cure on people without their consent? I'd really like to know so I can amend my opinion.

If the cure was always meant to be an option he would have told Caitlin that she/anyone could choose to not take it when she stated that not everyone wanted a normal life. If we were meant to believe that Caitlin was out of line for assuming the worst they would have given Cisco the space to react. All they needed to do was give him one more line of dialogue.

Caitlin: Not everyone wants a normal life.

Cisco: If you don't want the cure, you don't have to take it. It's your choice. I deserve the right to choose too. So does every other meta.

He let KF sabotage him because he couldn't tell Caitlin that not everything is about her and what she wants? Why?? If he had been clear with Caitlin, KF wouldn't have felt the need to confront him. I don't know why he let Caitlin be that dramatic if cure = choice/option was always what he had in mind.

I think we have reached an impasse. They needed to fill a forty minutes episode and made the characters act weird for the sake of drama/creating a conflict.

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42 minutes ago, Starry said:

I think we have reached an impasse.

Agreed. I'll make like Elsa and "Let it go, let it go.." Have a good MLK Jr weekend :)

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