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Lividity Lanie, ha, thanks for the laugh.   You reminded me of Gyrating Jenny also, which, I didn't really need to be reminded of!  I miss Perlmutter.  Haven't seen him in anything I've watched since Castle.

 

Network procedurals are super mundane except for the rare once in a blue moon episode where you get to stretch your acting muscles some more (but even on Castle, that veered towards melordrama in the end more than anything else), and poor Lanie didn't even get that one episode in 8 seasons.   Still, I wouldn't be surprised if supporting actors like Seamus and Tamala would say yes to another procedural again, or any steady gig, basically.   Jon aside, the supporting cast from Castle haven't worked that much since the show ended.  Maybe they will get something this pilot season but that can be a crapshoot.  Most actors stay on long running procedurals for the big and steady paycheck, even if few will come out and say honestly that's the reason.   

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38 minutes ago, madmaverick said:

Lividity Lanie, ha, thanks for the laugh.   You reminded me of Gyrating Jenny also, which, I didn't really need to be reminded of!  I miss Perlmutter.  Haven't seen him in anything I've watched since Castle.

 

Network procedurals are super mundane except for the rare once in a blue moon episode where you get to stretch your acting muscles some more (but even on Castle, that veered towards melordrama in the end more than anything else), and poor Lanie didn't even get that one episode in 8 seasons.   Still, I wouldn't be surprised if supporting actors like Seamus and Tamala would say yes to another procedural again, or any steady gig, basically.   Jon aside, the supporting cast from Castle haven't worked that much since the show ended.  Maybe they will get something this pilot season but that can be a crapshoot.  Most actors stay on long running procedurals for the big and steady paycheck, even if few will come out and say honestly that's the reason.   

I noticed some people were critical of Stana for Absentia being another "cop" role, and more recently of Fillion's The Rookie for the same reason, but a recent article about ABC revealed that crime shows still featured highly in their pilots and CBS are looking to reboot Magnum P.I. and Cagney and Lacey so it's not that easy to avoid similar roles if they want to work. I was expecting Fillion to turn up in a sci fy show or a pure comedy, but I guess you take what you can get.

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2 minutes ago, westwingfan said:

I noticed some people were critical of Stana for Absentia being another "cop" role, and more recently of Fillion's The Rookie for the same reason, but a recent article about ABC revealed that crime shows still featured highly in their pilots and CBS are looking to reboot Magnum P.I. and Cagney and Lacey so it's not that easy to avoid similar roles if they want to work. I was expecting Fillion to turn up in a sci fy show or a pure comedy, but I guess you take what you can get.

My personal take is that Stana took on Absentia because it offered her the chance for the first time to topline her own show and the EP title.   As for Nathan, I am somewhat surprised at him taking on another network hour long show with the accompanying schedule, but perhaps there was a big financial inducement especially with the EP title also.   I think there was some article saying he did get other offers in the past pilot season.   But I don't pretend to know the actors or their thinking; maybe there was something in the scripts that spoke to them.  Jon made a quick jump to This Is Us after Castle, but maybe that's the best career move he's made yet though I don't think he would have known that when he made it.

 

There was a joke in Con Man (webseries with Nathan and Alan Tudyk) about a fictional TV show called "Doctor, Cop, Lawyer", which was a comment on how those are basically the roles actors keep getting to play on TV.   Maybe there's a similar joke somewhere about cable being full of angsty anti heroes. 

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4 hours ago, madmaverick said:

It is a bit of a coincidence that both Milmar and Nathan's new shows are going to be on ABC next season. 

I doubt it's a coincidence. Fillion is still quite popular and MilMar's first show was earning ABC quite a lot of money. I think they're hoping for a repeat or rather, they're hoping that they'll get two winners with Castle audiences watching both. After I heard that they cast a 20 something for Fillion's love interest on The Rookie, I'm not sure if I'm going to check that out. It sounds like fun, easy TV but that kind of put me off. I'll see. I'll definitely have a look at MilMar's new show even if it sounds like a Castle Copy.

 

4 hours ago, madmaverick said:

I have been rewatching some Castle lately, and I still enjoy the show a lot.  Still enjoy Caskett chemistry a lot so I'll be checking out both actors' new shows to see if they replicate that kind of chemistry with their new costars. 

I'm not sure it can be replicated. Katic and Fillion had incredible chemistry and I have yet to see another couple on TV who has the same chemistry. Even couples who are a couple in real life don't bring the chemistry to the screen that Katic and Fillion had. While I'm sure that some of it is in the writing, I think it's also in an actor's personality and Katic and Fillion just had something that (paired with great writing) worked so very, very well.

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6 minutes ago, CheshireCat said:

I doubt it's a coincidence. Fillion is still quite popular and MilMar's first show was earning ABC quite a lot of money. I think they're hoping for a repeat or rather, they're hoping that they'll get two winners with Castle audiences watching both. After I heard that they cast a 20 something for Fillion's love interest on The Rookie, I'm not sure if I'm going to check that out. It sounds like fun, easy TV but that kind of put me off. I'll see. I'll definitely have a look at MilMar's new show even if it sounds like a Castle Copy.

Oh I'm sure they are all back at ABC in the hopes of everyone making more money.  What I meant is that Milmar tried to develop various shows for ABC, different kinds of crime procedurals if I recall correctly, in years past but nothing ever took off.  Till now.   And it's a coincidence that their new show will also air in the same season as Nathan's new show.  I do find it funny that ABC never wanted any of Milmar's other shows in development, but this one which is basically a Castle clone.   

 

They haven't yet cast anyone for The Rookie so I would wait and see.  It was mentioned that Toks' character was meant to be in her 20s in the casting notice but they ended up casting a much older actress.  I am not sure that casting notices are a good indicator of who will be ultimately cast, or if any romantic storyline will even materialize.  It's way too early to tell.  If there's no onscreen chemistry...  and I have to see the development first for any potential relationship with or without an age difference. 

6 minutes ago, CheshireCat said:

I'm not sure it can be replicated. Katic and Fillion had incredible chemistry and I have yet to see another couple on TV who has the same chemistry. Even couples who are a couple in real life don't bring the chemistry to the screen that Katic and Fillion had. While I'm sure that some of it is in the writing, I think it's also in an actor's personality and Katic and Fillion just had something that (paired with great writing) worked so very, very well.

It's hard to compare chemistry but other TV couples I've seen have also had chemistry, but it's not the same as Caskett chemistry.   They definitely had that je ne sais quoi.  Each acting couple brings a different kind of energy to the table, and the writing matters of course as well.   I did enjoy Nathan's chemistry in the past with his love interests on Firefly and Drive (Kristin Lehman who played Serena Kaye on Castle).  Haven't seen Absentia yet so don't know about Stana and her new love interest there, though it's funny to think he was on Castle in some scene that I doubt most of us noticed much about.  I do agree that often times real life couples don't share onscreen chemistry for some reason.  Too meta/too much familiarity?  I remember thinking Seamus had more onscreen chemistry with his blast from the past when he was undercover than with his real life wife.  And I do think that for whatever reason, the sexual chemistry tends to be greater onscreen when it's unresolved than after the deed has been done.   Milmar definitely hit casting gold with Nathan and Stana.  Remains to be seen if that will be the case with Take Two.  I've never thought the Bones actors had much chemistry, but many people probably think differently.  I am a little tired of procedural shows where character X with some special skill follows character Y around.  Too many shows with that premise. 

 

Anyway, nice to have a bit of a chat about Castle again. 

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2 hours ago, madmaverick said:

 Haven't seen Absentia yet so don't know about Stana and her new love interest there, though it's funny to think he was on Castle in some scene that I doubt most of us noticed much about. 

 

Anyway, nice to have a bit of a chat about Castle again. 

POSSIBLE SPOILER

Stana doesn't have a love interest in Absentia, and Patrick Heusinger played the murderer in Number One Fan but only had scenes with Ryan and Espo.

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3 hours ago, madmaverick said:

I've never thought the Bones actors had much chemistry, but many people probably think differently

It's so funny about perception, isn't it? Because I watched both Bones and Castle until various points for each and I thought David/Emily sizzled, while I never saw a spark with Nathan/Stana, even if I enjoyed the show for other things like its charm and lightness.

Just goes to show each viewer gets different things out of the same show.

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9 hours ago, madmaverick said:

Gosh, when is TV Line ever never going to go for clickbait and the most undeservedly dramatic headline ever? ;) They aren't even using their own reporting this time but they won't let that stop them in their pursuit of clickbait. ;)  (surprised fanboy Mitovich didn't try to land an interview)

Classy statement and PR worthy, yes., but I don't expect anything different or truly revealing from Stana, to be honest.  Even when she was asked about the #metoo movement during Absentia press recently, I found that she tended to give general, positive but PR proof inoffensive answers without coming off super strong or wading into anything controversial.   Maybe that is the PR approach she believes in.  Even if she did "reveal" more re Castle, honestly, that would also only be from her point of view, and I doubt, ABC or other cast are going to share theirs.  What purpose would it serve?  We aren't going to get the full picture, so to speak.  From reading some of her new interviews for Absentia, it seems like she has some talking points prepared for Absentia (as all actors probably do for show PR), and she probably had some prepared for the Castle questions too. 

Mitovich may have tried to land an interview and didn't get one, so TV Line went with clickbait over what she told someone else.  They are getting the web traffic either way though. 

I didn't really expect anything more revealing either, not from her or anyone else involved. They all seem to have moved on and want the fans to as well.

5 hours ago, madmaverick said:

I do agree that often times real life couples don't share onscreen chemistry for some reason.  Too meta/too much familiarity?  I remember thinking Seamus had more onscreen chemistry with his blast from the past when he was undercover than with his real life wife.  And I do think that for whatever reason, the sexual chemistry tends to be greater onscreen when it's unresolved than after the deed has been done. 

I agree about Seamus with the ex than his real life wife, but that could also have been the writing. Some actors have enough chemistry that is transcends bad writing, but most do not.

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5 hours ago, madmaverick said:

Oh I'm sure they are all back at ABC in the hopes of everyone making more money.  What I meant is that Milmar tried to develop various shows for ABC, different kinds of crime procedurals if I recall correctly, in years past but nothing ever took off.  Till now. 

Really? That must have been before Castle? It has taken quite a while for TakeTwo to take off but from what I read, that's what they were working on right after Castle and it's been way over a year since I first heard about it.

 

5 hours ago, madmaverick said:

 And it's a coincidence that their new show will also air in the same season as Nathan's new show.  I do find it funny that ABC never wanted any of Milmar's other shows in development, but this one which is basically a Castle clone.   

Can't go wrong with a winning team? Hopefully, Take Two will be allowed to end on a better note though.

 

5 hours ago, madmaverick said:

They haven't yet cast anyone for The Rookie so I would wait and see.  It was mentioned that Toks' character was meant to be in her 20s in the casting notice but they ended up casting a much older actress.  I am not sure that casting notices are a good indicator of who will be ultimately cast,

Well, it does tell us something about what they're looking for and I think they change it only when a different actor/actress completely blows them away/fits much better than what they originally envisioned. I have no idea how often that happens though.

 

5 hours ago, madmaverick said:

or if any romantic storyline will even materialize.  It's way too early to tell.  If there's no onscreen chemistry... 

I can think of one current show where a lack of chemistry between the leads hasn't kept anyone from making it about romance.

That said, I think that it is entirely possible that actors can have chemistry in person but that it doesn't translate on TV.

 

5 hours ago, madmaverick said:

 I do agree that often times real life couples don't share onscreen chemistry for some reason.  Too meta/too much familiarity?  I remember thinking Seamus had more onscreen chemistry with his blast from the past when he was undercover than with his real life wife. 

I'm not sure if I'd say that. We only ever got snippets of him and Jenny. We got a whole episode of him and his blast from the past, so there was a lot more time and dialogue devoted to that relationship. I don't think the relationship between Ryan and Jenny was treated as a priority.

 

5 hours ago, madmaverick said:

And I do think that for whatever reason, the sexual chemistry tends to be greater onscreen when it's unresolved than after the deed has been done.   

I believe that a part of that is due to the writing though. Yes, the dynamic changes when the will-they-won't-they aspect is gone, the tension is gone. But that doesn't mean that the characters can't still desire one another or flirt with each other and I don't think that the will-they-won't-they concept is anything other than that; a portrayal of flirtation and desire. Many shows stop writing flirtation and desire though once the "deed is done".

That said, I think that Castle and Beckett still had great scenes after the "did the deed", many scenes which showed intimacy and trust and also scenes which made me smile because they were cute.

 

5 hours ago, madmaverick said:

Milmar definitely hit casting gold with Nathan and Stana.  Remains to be seen if that will be the case with Take Two.  I've never thought the Bones actors had much chemistry, but many people probably think differently. 

I've never really seen Bones, other than a bit here and there in German and I can't say that I was impressed. But the German voice actors haven't impressed me for a while now, so that could very well have been it. I generally try to avoid watching translated shows.

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15 hours ago, madmaverick said:

Gosh, when is TV Line ever never going to go for clickbait and the most undeservedly dramatic headline ever? ;) They aren't even using their own reporting this time but they won't let that stop them in their pursuit of clickbait. ;)  (surprised fanboy Mitovich didn't try to land an interview)

 

I think it is a safe bet that TV Line will continue on until they have squeezed the lost drop of interest from Castle's demise. Combine that with the fact that fandom, both in general and some Castle fans in particular, seem to take strange joy in re-litigating the same old theories and scandals and you've got a new "dramatic" headline. Gotta get those clicks some how! ;) lol

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Classy statement and PR worthy, yes., but I don't expect anything different or truly revealing from Stana, to be honest.  Even when she was asked about the #metoo movement during Absentia press recently, I found that she tended to give general, positive but PR proof inoffensive answers without coming off super strong or wading into anything controversial.   Maybe that is the PR approach she believes in.  Even if she did "reveal" more re Castle, honestly, that would also only be from her point of view, and I doubt, ABC or other cast are going to share theirs.  What purpose would it serve?  We aren't going to get the full picture, so to speak.  From reading some of her new interviews for Absentia, it seems like she has some talking points prepared for Absentia (as all actors probably do for show PR), and she probably had some prepared for the Castle questions too. 

Agreed. Very classy but didn't say much that was new. I don't see much of SK's PR etc, but what I have seen seems very innocuous. I doubt very much that we will ever hear details from anyone involved in Castle's cursed conclusion (sorry couldn't help myself). I doubt it is NDAs keeping them quiet. I imagine it is a desire to move on and to work in the industry again. But who knows? In my own career, I have some gossip and stories that I could share. But I doubt that would do me or my career much good. I would guess it is the same for them, but on a larger and more public stage. And also, I agree, what would be the point, almost 2 years later?

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It is a bit of a coincidence that both Milmar and Nathan's new shows are going to be on ABC next season.  Who's going to check them out?   We could have another Castle board reunion on those boards, and a drinking game every time they repeat something they did on Castle. ;)  I will laugh but not be entirely surprised if Luke repeats Beckett's wardrobe of coats and stilettos for the new female lead on Take Two.  ;)

Castle reunion for sure! We will be drunk before episode one is over if they repeat things like I think they will. Procedurals get made fun of for their tropes for a reason. ;)

It is interesting that they will both be launching their shows on the same network at the same time. I will give the new shows from Milmar, NF and SK a chance. I doubt they will have lightning strike twice, but you never know. I don't keep up much with casting/crew news but it does seem like Milmar are staging a bit of Castle crew reunion.

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I have been rewatching some Castle lately, and I still enjoy the show a lot.  Still enjoy Caskett chemistry a lot so I'll be checking out both actors' new shows to see if they replicate that kind of chemistry with their new costars.  Definitely don't nitpick the show as much as we used to do here when we were watching week in week out heh.

Same here. I rewatched about a half dozen episodes while sick a few weeks back. It was nice to find I still enjoy the show, characters, chemistry etc. I don't watch S8, but otherwise I am glad to catch an episode now and then. The show, flaws and all, really was something special and entertaining.

14 hours ago, madmaverick said:

Network procedurals are super mundane except for the rare once in a blue moon episode where you get to stretch your acting muscles some more (but even on Castle, that veered towards melordrama in the end more than anything else), and poor Lanie didn't even get that one episode in 8 seasons.   Still, I wouldn't be surprised if supporting actors like Seamus and Tamala would say yes to another procedural again, or any steady gig, basically.   Jon aside, the supporting cast from Castle haven't worked that much since the show ended.  Maybe they will get something this pilot season but that can be a crapshoot.  Most actors stay on long running procedurals for the big and steady paycheck, even if few will come out and say honestly that's the reason.   

I agree, most working actors likely don't get to choose their roles for art or principles. Even the bigger stars, who do "art" still probably take some lesser roles to get the payday. We all have bills to pay.

I am glad for Jon and hope the others can find more work in the future. I think it really shows how hard it is to get cast as a Lanie or a Ryan or other supporting roles, let alone lead roles.

7 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

It's so funny about perception, isn't it? Because I watched both Bones and Castle until various points for each and I thought David/Emily sizzled, while I never saw a spark with Nathan/Stana, even if I enjoyed the show for other things like its charm and lightness.

Just goes to show each viewer gets different things out of the same show.

Perception is funny for sure. I thought Booth and Bones had good chemistry but I didn't watch for more than a season or 2. I have friends who I'm sure have better taste than me recommend TV, movies, books etc that I did not like. The things that capture our imaginations can be so different and fickle from individual to individual. I too enjoyed Castle for its charm and lightness.

Finally, it is good to see that reasonable and enjoyable discussion of Castle still exists. Hope you all are well.

Edited by GoGiants.
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11 hours ago, westwingfan said:

POSSIBLE SPOILER

Stana doesn't have a love interest in Absentia, and Patrick Heusinger played the murderer in Number One Fan but only had scenes with Ryan and Espo.

I know Heusinger isn't a typical love interest per se, but plays her possibly ex husband.  No spoilers, thanks.

9 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

It's so funny about perception, isn't it? Because I watched both Bones and Castle until various points for each and I thought David/Emily sizzled, while I never saw a spark with Nathan/Stana, even if I enjoyed the show for other things like its charm and lightness.

Just goes to show each viewer gets different things out of the same show.

Indeed.  I never seriously sat down to watch Bones from the beginning like I did with Castle, so my perception may be skewed also.  But what's good in this age of peak TV is that anyone can find just about anything to enjoy and suit their tastes.

8 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

Mitovich may have tried to land an interview and didn't get one, so TV Line went with clickbait over what she told someone else.  They are getting the web traffic either way though. 

I don't know how these things work, whether it's Stana's PR at work or articles being syndicated on the internet, but the article with the Castle 'harsh' exist headline sure is making the rounds everywhere on dozens of sites.  It's good publicity for her new series, I guess, though people are clicking for the Castle stuff.

7 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

Really? That must have been before Castle? It has taken quite a while for TakeTwo to take off but from what I read, that's what they were working on right after Castle and it's been way over a year since I first heard about it.

Yes, I think they tried to develop a few shows at ABC while Castle was still airing, including one about Derek Storm and some P.I. show, but they never went forward.  

7 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

Can't go wrong with a winning team? Hopefully, Take Two will be allowed to end on a better note though.

Take Two could be a pale copy of Castle, or who knows, it could be a better show without the mistakes of Castle.  It's anyone's guess.  Some people will be more interested to go down the same route with Milmar; others less so. For me, I thought their writing was strongest at the beginning of Castle and then got much weaker in the end so I don't know if I would like to get on board with another similar show of theirs, unless they really surprise me with the writing or the onscreen chemistry is at the same level of Caskett.  I have watched the Castle finale again since, and honestly, I didn't find it so bad as finales go, which are rarely the most satisfying episode in a series.  Caskett got their brief but happy ending (even if the final episode of the show was written with notice, I'm not sure they would have tacked that much more to the Caskett ending) and there were some strong dramatic scenes to finally end the loksat drama.  But mileage varies, I'm sure.

 

7 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

I'm not sure if I'd say that. We only ever got snippets of him and Jenny. We got a whole episode of him and his blast from the past, so there was a lot more time and dialogue devoted to that relationship. I don't think the relationship between Ryan and Jenny was treated as a priority.

That's fair.  Ryan and the ex got more screen time and development than he and Jenny really did.

7 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

That said, I think that Castle and Beckett still had great scenes after the "did the deed", many scenes which showed intimacy and trust and also scenes which made me smile because they were cute.

My favorite seasons will always be the earlier seasons for many reasons, but there definitely was still some good Caskett to enjoy after they got together.  Different, but still enjoyable.  And I do still think the scenes where they finally got married were done well, and showed the depth of the relationship.

 

3 hours ago, GoGiants said:

I think it is a safe bet that TV Line will continue on until they have squeezed the lost drop of interest from Castle's demise. Combine that with the fact that fandom, both in general and some Castle fans in particular, seem to take strange joy in re-litigating the same old theories and scandals and you've got a new "dramatic" headline. Gotta get those clicks some how! ;) lol

I really should look into how much sites make from each click.  Must be nice money if there are endless clickbaity sites popping up which basically just copy and past other people's content with sensationalized headline without permission. ;)  I'm sure there will be the next round of clickbait and we can reunite here again lol when Nathan and Milmar's new shows do their PR, and they are asked about Castle again, even if everyone's really moved on.

 

3 hours ago, GoGiants said:

Agreed. Very classy but didn't say much that was new. I don't see much of SK's PR etc, but what I have seen seems very innocuous. I doubt very much that we will ever hear details from anyone involved in Castle's cursed conclusion (sorry couldn't help myself). I doubt it is NDAs keeping them quiet. I imagine it is a desire to move on and to work in the industry again. But who knows? In my own career, I have some gossip and stories that I could share. But I doubt that would do me or my career much good. I would guess it is the same for them, but on a larger and more public stage. And also, I agree, what would be the point, almost 2 years later?

In the end, all the people involved made lots of money.  Their job ended but they found new ones.  They want to keep working.  And maybe every party had their responsibility in any mess.  So why not just move on with a good PR answer and look to the future?   They all seem to be moving on and enjoying their lives, which is all anyone can hope for.

3 hours ago, GoGiants said:

Castle reunion for sure! We will be drunk before episode one is over if they repeat things like I think they will. Procedurals get made fun of for their tropes for a reason. ;)

How much will be an 'homage' to Castle?  How much will be lazy writing?   We shall see. ;)

3 hours ago, GoGiants said:

Same here. I rewatched about a half dozen episodes while sick a few weeks back. It was nice to find I still enjoy the show, characters, chemistry etc. I don't watch S8, but otherwise I am glad to catch an episode now and then. The show, flaws and all, really was something special and entertaining.

Hope you're feeling better.  I don't mind S8; it's more a few episodes here and there in various seasons that I have no desire to rewatch.  Cough TSATQ cough.  Castle is mostly easy comfort food TV viewing and there's something to be said for that. 

3 hours ago, GoGiants said:

I agree, most working actors likely don't get to choose their roles for art or principles. Even the bigger stars, who do "art" still probably take some lesser roles to get the payday. We all have bills to pay.

I am glad for Jon and hope the others can find more work in the future. I think it really shows how hard it is to get cast as a Lanie or a Ryan or other supporting roles, let alone lead roles.

I can't fault actors for having financial considerations when taking on projects, as do we all when taking on a job.  And it does make sense to try to maximize earning capacity especially when you're in your prime as there's never any guarantee of when the next job will come and if it will last.  I think Tamala just guested on ABC's Speechless.  Anyone watch that?   Seamus has landed a recurring spot on a superhero show.  Good for them.  Hope to see Susan and Molly pop up sometime too.  I think they are all good actors deserving of more work.

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11 hours ago, GoGiants said:

I agree, most working actors likely don't get to choose their roles for art or principles. Even the bigger stars, who do "art" still probably take some lesser roles to get the payday. We all have bills to pay.

I'm sure that the bigger stars have no troubles paying them ;-) (Unless, of course, they go crazy with their money but if they invest and act normally with it, they should be okay)

 

8 hours ago, madmaverick said:

Yes, I think they tried to develop a few shows at ABC while Castle was still airing, including one about Derek Storm and some P.I. show, but they never went forward.  

Take Two is the PI show. It's about a PI who starts working together with a former actress (I forgot why) and she then sticks around. Forgot about the Derek Storm thing although Take Two might have been developed from that.

 

8 hours ago, madmaverick said:

Take Two could be a pale copy of Castle, or who knows, it could be a better show without the mistakes of Castle.  It's anyone's guess.  Some people will be more interested to go down the same route with Milmar; others less so. For me, I thought their writing was strongest at the beginning of Castle and then got much weaker in the end so I don't know if I would like to get on board with another similar show of theirs, unless they really surprise me with the writing or the onscreen chemistry is at the same level of Caskett.

The question is if it was their writing or if the network started to meddle and that prompted the decline in writing quality because they couldn't do what they wanted. Or if maybe there were other reasons. I don't subscribe to the whole drama theory floating around the internet but I do think that there's always some sort of truth to rumors, hence I believe that something was going on BTS. What exactly, I don't know and maybe, MilMar's writing just declined towards the end because they lost interest and the BTS issue was a separate one. Everything's possible in show business. But maybe they have also learned from it.

 

8 hours ago, madmaverick said:

  I have watched the Castle finale again since, and honestly, I didn't find it so bad as finales go, which are rarely the most satisfying episode in a series.  Caskett got their brief but happy ending (even if the final episode of the show was written with notice, I'm not sure they would have tacked that much more to the Caskett ending) and there were some strong dramatic scenes to finally end the loksat drama.  But mileage varies, I'm sure.

I didn't mind the actual finale, I didn't even mind the episodes itself. What I minded was this convoluted story that disregarded character development and disrespected the characters. I always felt that it was about the characters with MilMar and they had created great characters with great depths which often is unusual for TV shows. They also seemed to care about their show and the characters. Season 8 was just drama for drama's sake like so many TV shows do and it didn't seem like the showrunners could have been bothered to invest a little more time so that they'd come up with a story that respected the characters and the development. But here, too, we don't know how much was coming from the network and how much was coming from the showrunners. The entire season's setup almost felt like a backdoor pilot of Castle PI Family Business, so it is entirely possible that the network had a hand in it.

I also minded that they felt the need to change Alexis like that. That completely disregarded who she was and just came across as stereotypical male. They just can't imagine that a young woman is like Alexis used to be before, can they?

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19 minutes ago, CheshireCat said:

The question is if it was their writing or if the network started to meddle and that prompted the decline in writing quality because they couldn't do what they wanted. Or if maybe there were other reasons. I don't subscribe to the whole drama theory floating around the internet but I do think that there's always some sort of truth to rumors, hence I believe that something was going on BTS. What exactly, I don't know and maybe, MilMar's writing just declined towards the end because they lost interest and the BTS issue was a separate one. Everything's possible in show business. But maybe they have also learned from it.

For me the show already started its decline around S3/4.  The writing wasn't as sharp as S1/2 as the crime procedural element got more and more tedious, and the ways in which they clearly trying to delay getting Caskett together weren't written well.   And after they got together the couple wasn't written in any fresh or particularly interesting way either.  It was mundane interspersed with some weird angsty arcs that didn't make a lot of sense.  For me, Marlowe's best writing was in S1, maybe even the pilot, and when you do a show for 7 seasons, that says something to me.  I do attribute the decline in writing quality to the writers because that's their job.  Castle isn't a kind of a show where they wanted to push boundaries, just a typical crime procedural, so I doubt the network had issued so many constraints on what they could do. 

 

I highly disagree with the idea that there's always some sort of truth to rumours.  In fact, I find that's one of the most disturbing and dangerous beliefs of our time in this internet age and we are seeing this play out in politics etc.  In arenas which matter much more than TV shows.  Where "rumours" coming from who knows where (as it turns out, even some small towns in Macedonia) at a click of a button can become "fact" or "truth" to millions.  In many instances, there have proven to be absolute zero truth to internet rumours.  Not that that stops them from continuing to take on a life of their own on the internet as they spread like infectious diseases and they can never be erased.  It is seriously disturbing to me that millions can believe something to be true based on no independent verification or fact checking or actual evidence or reputable sources, and often, even no critical thinking.  Internet rumours can be very damaging and people's reputations, even lives, can be ruined by them so easily.  I think it behooves us all to exercise more caution and due diligence before taking on any rumour as fact.   Sorry about the lecture, and I wasn't really thinking of TV shows or showbiz stuff, but when you look at the fake stuff that people do readily believe on the internet (sometimes just because many people believe it or because it's out there), it is alarming.

 

Back to Castle itself, all I can say is that we don't really know much that is verified, and even if there's X, it doesn't necessarily mean it caused Y.  Correlation doesn't always mean there's a causal relationship.  We simply don't have enough facts at hand to draw any conclusions.   And that's OK.   We don't have to play judge, jury and executioner. 

 

19 minutes ago, CheshireCat said:

I didn't mind the actual finale, I didn't even mind the episodes itself. What I minded was this convoluted story that disregarded character development and disrespected the characters. I always felt that it was about the characters with MilMar and they had created great characters with great depths which often is unusual for TV shows. They also seemed to care about their show and the characters. Season 8 was just drama for drama's sake like so many TV shows do and it didn't seem like the showrunners could have been bothered to invest a little more time so that they'd come up with a story that respected the characters and the development. But here, too, we don't know how much was coming from the network and how much was coming from the showrunners. The entire season's setup almost felt like a backdoor pilot of Castle PI Family Business, so it is entirely possible that the network had a hand in it.

I also minded that they felt the need to change Alexis like that. That completely disregarded who she was and just came across as stereotypical male. They just can't imagine that a young woman is like Alexis used to be before, can they?

I thought they did the drama for drama's sake long before S8.  The artificial failure to communicate arcs, Vaughn (ugh), Jacinda (ugh again), Beckett's forgotten first marriage, Castle's car crash and amnesia just to name a few.  All of that was drama for drama's sake.  But that's what writers do, especially when they run out of ideas for organic storytelling and the show needs to go on.  Some of it lands better than others.  

As for Alexis, I didn't care for her in the end either but her change to me to become a less likable character began long ago, under Marlowe.  Round the time of Pi becoming her boyfriend and she started treating Castle really disrespectfully.   Castle, Beckett, Alexis were all stripped of their more interesting qualities to me under Marlowe so.... perhaps that's why S8 wasn't so massively disappointing to me in that the inorganic storytelling and general creative decline had been going on for awhile and it was just more of that. 

Ha, maybe I should stay away from the boards.  It rehashes my old critical feelings of the show.  Just as I'm nostalgically rewatching. :P

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Just jumping in to say that he new show Deception has lots of Castle characteristics.... it will be interesting to see how it does.

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On 3/9/2018 at 4:51 PM, GeorgieNY said:

Just jumping in to say that he new show Deception has lots of Castle characteristics.... it will be interesting to see how it does.

I watched it and thought it was absolutely terrible.  Thought the leads had absolutely no chemistry with each other, and their acting paled in comparison with what Nathan and Stana brought to the Castle pilot, separately and together.  And yes, there were quite a few similarities with the Castle pilot, like the guy getting handcuffed to the car by the female cop, the female cop saying she's not a fan of the celebrity but turning out to have watched some of his work.  I won't be staying tuned to see if she has a tragic backstory.  ;)  I found it all terribly boring.  I couldn't get into all the magic stuff at all.  If you love magic, maybe this is the show for you.  But otherwise, I can't recommend it, not even as a mindless procedural.  

I will see how Instinct, the other Castle clone, compares.   Of course we have Take Two with Milmar coming, which may be the ultimate Castle clone.  And The Rookie with Nathan., but that may not be so similar to Castle other than Nathan also starring. 

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On 3/15/2018 at 11:45 AM, madmaverick said:

I will see how Instinct, the other Castle clone, compares. 

Considering, only 3 episodes in, it literally stole many scenes from two Bones episodes, the odds are not in its favor. (The whole issue made the rounds on TV sites/Twitter, etc.) Hopefully, The Rookie will do well as a quasi-"replacement", if one is looking for one.

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17 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Considering, only 3 episodes in, it literally stole many scenes from two Bones episodes, the odds are not in its favor. (The whole issue made the rounds on TV sites/Twitter, etc.) Hopefully, The Rookie will do well as a quasi-"replacement", if one is looking for one.

Wow, that is BAD. 

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