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15 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

So sort of like a lesser version of Brennan on Bones then, with more social skills? Yeah, I think it would have served Beckett better. too, since her Mary Sue-ness really turned me off of her in a hurry.

Exactly.

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On 7/21/2016 at 3:52 PM, HospiceDoc said:

I think you nailed why I ended up disliking Beckett over the course of the series.  I loved her in the first two seasons, but this know-it-all schtick got old really quickly.  I agree that it made more sense coming from Castle, as he has had to research multiple topics to keep his novels fresh and interesting (case in point:  Voodoo), but from someone who was traumatized by her mother's death as a teenager, she sure did a lot of living and learning before that event.  A better route may have been to make her unfamiliar with more things, as she would have foregone a social life in order to perseverate on her mother's case, but YMMV.  

I still don't get the argument about why it made sense for Castle to know random pieces of information but not Beckett. Beckett was well educated and well read, but more importantly she was a cop in NYC for over a decade. It makes total sense that she would have been around different kinds of people and picked up information about all kinds of things. If they had her jumping on a skateboard and doing tricks herself, that would have made no sense. But just knowing things? Completely realistic. I don't think that falls in the Mary Sue category at all. The over the top compliments, yes. But not knowing things.  

And I guess I don't see how being a writer gives someone more of a pass for knowing random things than a cop. Cops see all kinds of stuff. They knew different things, which was always why they made a good team. Where the show missed an opportunity was in showing Beckett uncomfortable in Castle's world, where her cop experience wasn't as useful as solving crimes. The few times they did get into that we got to see Beckett insecure, which was always enjoyable.

Like I said, I get the Mary Sue complaints in general, I just don't understand how having knowledge falls into that category.

But I know I'm in the minority there.

Edited by KaveDweller. Reason: Spelling
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On July 21, 2016 at 6:19 PM, KaveDweller said:

I still don't get the argument about why it made sense for Castle to know random pieces if information but not Beckett. Beckett was well educated and well read, but more importantly she was a cop in NYC for over a decade. It makes totally sense that she would have been around different kinds of people and picked up information about all kinds of things. If they had her jumping on a skateboard and doing tricks herself, that would have made no sense. But just knowing things? Completely realistic. I don't think that falls in the Mary Sue category at all. The over the top compliments, yes. But not knowing things.  

And I guess I don't see how being a writer gives someone more of a pass for knowing random things than a cop. Cops see all kinds of stuff. They knew different things, which was always why they made a good team. Where the show missed an opportunity was in showing Beckett uncomfortable in Castle's world, where her cop experience wasn't as useful as solving crimes. The few times they did get into that we got to see Beckett insecure, which was always enjoyable.

Like I said, I get the Mary Sue complaints in general, I just don't understand how having knowledge falls into that category.

But I know I'm in the minority there.

I don't have much of a problem with a regular cop knowing some of this extraneous information, I have a problem with Kate Beckett knowing it.  This is a woman who has so traumatized by her mother's death at age 19 that she transferred to a different college to help her alcoholic father and was so driven that she became the youngest woman to ever obtain a detective badge.  When we meet her she is all business and professionalism and a secret fan of the Derrick Storm books.  She wore plain clothes and sensible shoes.  She was an impressive detective but was still unnerved when Castle surmised her tragic history.  She had so much angst about her mother's death that it railroaded multiple relationships.  Yet during all of that she manages to do some modeling, become an expert about classic cars, comics, sci-fi, magic, motorcycles, and spent a semester enjoying Russia.  Having knowledge doesn't make her a Mary Sue, but her variety of knowledge about certain things just seems excessive.  When you add to that the fact that over the course of the series, she began wearing clothes way out of her pay grade, always had perfect hair (ridiculously long tresses rarely put up) and makeup and chases suspects in 3-4 inch heels, it begins to not feel genuine.  For me, anyway.  

I totally respect that you feel differently though!

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3 minutes ago, HospiceDoc said:

 When we meet her she is all business and professionalism and a secret fan of the Derrick Storm books.  She wore plain clothes and sensible shoes.  She was an impressive detective but was still unnerved when Castle surmised her tragic history.  She had so much angst about her mother's death that it railroaded multiple relationships.  Yet during all of that she manages to do some modeling, become an expert about classic cars, comics, sci-fi, magic, motorcycles, and spent a semester enjoying Russia.  Having knowledge doesn't make her a Mary Sue, but her variety of knowledge about certain things just seems excessive.  When you add to that the fact that over the course of the series, she began wearing clothes way out of her pay grade, always had perfect hair (ridiculously long tresses rarely put up) and makeup and chases suspects in 3-4 inch heels, it begins to not feel genuine.  For me, anyway.  

I totally respect that you feel differently though!

I don't think it's true she had multiple relationships railroaded because of her angst about her mom. The only relationship we know about between her mom dying and the show starting was Will, and that ended because he moved, not her mom. She came to a realization that she was closed off because of her mom, but, she was in relationships. I think the backstory was that she was obsessed with her mom's death to an unhealthy point, but then got better and was living more fully, having somewhat of a social life, reading a lot of things, etc. Plus, my point was also that in the course of being a driven detective she would have worked a lot, and that's where she would have picked up a lot of information. She wasn't only trying to solve her mom's case, she was solving tons of other cases and that's why she got promoted so fast. Being driven and all business is what makes it believable she could have seen a lot of different things.

Most of those other things you mentioned were established as things she did before her mom died. The modeling was in high school and she was a fan of comics/sci-fi as a kid. I think she even bought the motorcycle as a teenager. There were plenty of things she had absolutely no knowledge about (even things like Las Vegas marriages being real, which you'd think would have been obvious). 

The "expert" part is the word I've taken issue with in complaints I've seen. Because her knowing the plot of a few comics, or remembering a couple magic tricks her grandfather taught her as a kid is hardly a suggestion that she's an expert. I totally get that once something annoys you, it annoys you exponentially. But I just didn't see that aspect of the show come through.

I won't argue with the looks stuff though.

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Taken individually, Beckett knowing things isn't so bad, but when all cumulatively added together - along with EVERYONE talking about her fantabulousness (my word!) and her bestest of the bestest schtick at...well, EVERYTHING - and adding the Barbie doll look on top of it - it was just WAY too much for me.

Gone was Beckett the competent cop and in her place (emphasizing here, my opinion!) was an overgrown Barbie/Bratz doll hybrid with attitude to match.

And it really turned me off of her big time.

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5 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

Most of those other things you mentioned were established as things she did before her mom died. The modeling was in high school and she was a fan of comics/sci-fi as a kid.

For me it was never about her knowing a few things. It was always how everybody else was dazzled by her. It's not that she modeled as a teenager. It's that one of the top people in modeling (someone that has probably seen thousands of models come & go) was just so damn impressed with this teenager that modeled for a few months that she still remembers her 15 years later. That she wasn't just one of the top people at the academy but was a legend. That she is so amazing that a bunch of people got together on their own (without her knowledge) & wanted her to go into politics.

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4 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

 

Taken individually, Beckett knowing things isn't so bad, but when all cumulatively added together - along with EVERYONE talking about her fantabulousness (my word!) and her bestest of the bestest schtick at...well, EVERYTHING - and adding the Barbie doll look on top of it - it was just WAY too much for me.

Gone was Beckett the competent cop and in her place (emphasizing here, my opinion!) was an overgrown Barbie/Bratz doll hybrid with attitude to match.

And it really turned me off of her big time.

 

Yes. @verdana's recap of the skateboarding scene was even more ridiculous than I remembered, and Kate slugging alcohol and stitching herself up was fall-on-the-floor laughing movie cliche bad-ass chick, bad. Like, OTT bad.

A writer doing research and knowing random facts? Sure. And again, it's not just the knowledge. It's HOT NERDGIRL knowledge. And yes, the constant run of people talking about how amazing she was, coupled with the hotnerdgirlbad-assery coupled with them slowly turning her runway-ready, all cumulatively made it over the top ridiculous. And like I said, what wound up making it even more glaring and shining a spotlight on it was that the more awesome they made her, the more little-boy like they made him. Not in the playful, cute way they did at the beginning, but an actual little boy. 

Nobody is that smart and confident and competent and just waking up with false eyelashes and lipstick and hair brushed to a lustrous shine. She was supposed to look tired and disoriented and disheveled, but she could have gotten out of bed and posed for Vogue with a minor outfit change.

The Kate Beckett at the beginning of the series was a quiet, beautiful nerdgirl. The reader who idolized an author that in later years she wound up rolling her eyes at and mommying. The man who became a buffoon who tagged after her like a puppy. They cut Castle off at the knees at the exact time they built Kate to epic status, and it was so sad what that relationship became.

Edited by SweetTooth.
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14 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

 

Most of those other things you mentioned were established as things she did before her mom died. The modeling was in high school and she was a fan of comics/sci-fi as a kid. I think she even bought the motorcycle as a teenager. There were plenty of things she had absolutely no knowledge about (even things like Las Vegas marriages being real, which you'd think would have been obvious). 

 

Modelling In Inventing The Girl Beckett admits to the boys that she did some modelling when she was 17 as it was easier than waitressing (Although in Dressed To Kill we are told that she turned down the chance to appear in the Jan 1999 edition of Modern Fashion, the month her mother was murdered when she would have been 19)

Comics In Heroes and Villains Beckett tells Castle that she bought Sin City when she was 14.

Magic In Poof You're Dead she informs Castle that her Grandfather was an amataur magician and used to take her to Drake's Magic Shop when she was 13.

Motorcycles In Under The Gun Beckett tells Castle that she worked through high school to buy her '94 Harley softail.

Semester in Kiev (Ukraine) In Deep In Death she explains her knowledge of Russian by telling the boyz that she spent a semester between junior and senior year in Kiev.

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9 hours ago, oberon55 said:

For me it was never about her knowing a few things. It was always how everybody else was dazzled by her. It's not that she modeled as a teenager. It's that one of the top people in modeling (someone that has probably seen thousands of models come & go) was just so damn impressed with this teenager that modeled for a few months that she still remembers her 15 years later. That she wasn't just one of the top people at the academy but was a legend. That she is so amazing that a bunch of people got together on their own (without her knowledge) & wanted her to go into politics.

 

9 hours ago, SweetTooth said:

Yes. @verdana's recap of the skateboarding scene was even more ridiculous than I remembered, and Kate slugging alcohol and stitching herself up was fall-on-the-floor laughing movie cliche bad-ass chick, bad. Like, OTT bad.

A writer doing research and knowing random facts? Sure. And again, it's not just the knowledge. It's HOT NERDGIRL knowledge. And yes, the constant run of people talking about how amazing she was, coupled with the hotnerdgirlbad-assery coupled with them slowly turning her runway-ready, all cumulatively made it over the top ridiculous. And like I said, what wound up making it even more glaring and shining a spotlight on it was that the more awesome they made her, the more little-boy like they made him. 

I already said I agreed with the comments about too many people complimenting her and her looks. But there were posts upthread that specifically talked about how it was unbelievable that she would know about various topics that she knew about. That is the only point I was disagreeing with, especially since those same comments had no issue with Castle being an "expert" on every topic that comes up. They are two separate points, and I just don't think they should get lumped together.

I disagree with the nerd girl label though. The only thing that fits that is the sci-if and comics. Modeling, motorcycles, and traveling aren't nerd things.  Skateboarding is not at all a nerd thing. I have a collegue who goes out to a skate park near our office everyday at lunch and he is nowhere near nerdy. Neither are the people he rides with or anyone I know who has ever touched a skateboard.  Also, I believe in the episode she was actually talking about a trick a biker did, which is also not a nerd thing, but an Olympic sport. 

I think a lot of the backstory was meant to show she was really compatible with Castle. She wasn't just some cop he admired for her job, she had tastes in movies/books/hobbies  that matched his. And I think she was trying to impress him when she told him about her past, because even when she didn't want to admit it, she liked him following her around and wanted him to stay interested.

Or sometimes they just gave her or Castle a backstory that connected to their cases because the writers were lazy and liked to have themes that made their jobs easier.

Edited by KaveDweller.
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Let me put this in perspective with a similar-ish (on paper) character, albeit in a "straight" drama. And, @SweetTooth, feel free to back me or not here: On Law & Order: Criminal Intent, Detective Bobby Goren was scary smart. He was a bookworm (thanks to his mom being a librarian before her mental illness kicked in) and could glean the most obscure facts, with his partner filling in gaps.

And for a while, it was what it was. But then, a funny thing happened: Not everyone thought he was hot shit. The first crack came when Alex Eames, his partner, was kidnapped. All of a sudden, he wasn't supercop. He teetered on the edge, could barely function objectively, and it was compounded by the fact the kidnapper was someone he'd known since she was a girl. Then came his mom dying of cancer, his junkie brother coming around again along with it, and then a sucker punch with discovering his bio father was a murderer while investigating a case that encompassed his involvement.

He was called a whackjob. He went undercover to help his nephew in prison against policy and got 6-months' suspension. His partner rightfully called him on his shit when he again went undercover (this time with the brass knowing, but not being allowed to clue his partner in). And then his old mentor framed him for his own brother's murder, and had his own captain suspecting him. On paper, it sounds like overkill, sure, but on screen, it WORKED. Because Goren was allowed to fail. He was allowed to go off the reservation and be short-sighted and short-tempered and not be perfect and not have his ass kissed. He still had the brilliance, but he was heavily flawed, both from outside and inside, and I think it actually helped him as a character in the end. He was finally "a real boy", human, and not some wish fulfillment fantasy.

I'm not saying Beckett had to be disliked or whatnot, but yeah, I think she could have used a dash of humility and had something, ANYTHING shaking her perfection apart a bit.

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2 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

Skateboarding is not at all a nerd thing. I have a collegue who goes out to a skate park near our office everyday at lunch and he is nowhere near nerdy. Neither are the people he rides with or anyone I know who has ever touched a skateboard.  Also, I believe in the episode she was actually talking about a trick a biker did, which is also not a nerd thing, but an Olympic sport. 

I'm not talking about the actual skateboarders. I'm talking about her interest in things nerds would love. The point I was making was that her knowledge involved most things men/boys would find incredibly hot for a woman to love. Like motorcycles and comic books and skateboarding.  BUT! She's also a girl! A really feminine girl! I mean, what's more of a male fantasy than a girl who digs sports, motorcycles, comics, and skateboarding but also has modeled/looks like a model? I just meant they were playing into the fantasy of the ideal woman. The chick all of the women want to hang with and guys want to sleep with. 

I never felt Castle was an expert in any of the areas he brought up that he researched. A lot of the time it seemed to me (like with the mob thing) he had connections to people who knew things and thus had a vast array of characters he could go to for information in the same way Holmes does.

And they just kind of tossed off his knowledge/rolled their eyes whenever he said he knew about something. LIke, whatever, writer, okay. 

So while I agree totally that both of them having random knowledge about subjects that just happened to tie into a case they were working on is a TV trope going back to the beginning of TV, I think it was more how it was presented that made Beckett's knowledge seem more strange than Castle's. 

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20 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

Let me put this in perspective with a similar-ish (on paper) character, albeit in a "straight" drama. And, @SweetTooth, feel free to back me or not here: On Law & Order: Criminal Intent, Detective Bobby Goren was scary smart. He was a bookworm (thanks to his mom being a librarian before her mental illness kicked in) and could glean the most obscure facts, with his partner filling in gaps.

And for a while, it was what it was. But then, a funny thing happened: Not everyone thought he was hot shit. The first crack came when Alex Eames, his partner, was kidnapped. All of a sudden, he wasn't supercop. He teetered on the edge, could barely function objectively, and it was compounded by the fact the kidnapper was someone he'd known since she was a girl. Then came his mom dying of cancer, his junkie brother coming around again along with it, and then a sucker punch with discovering his bio father was a murderer while investigating a case that encompassed his involvement.

He was called a whackjob. He went undercover to help his nephew in prison against policy and got 6-months' suspension. His partner rightfully called him on his shit when he again went undercover (this time with the brass knowing, but not being allowed to clue his partner in). And then his old mentor framed him for his own brother's murder, and had his own captain suspecting him. On paper, it sounds like overkill, sure, but on screen, it WORKED. Because Goren was allowed to fail. He was allowed to go off the reservation and be short-sighted and short-tempered and not be perfect and not have his ass kissed. He still had the brilliance, but he was heavily flawed, both from outside and inside, and I think it actually helped him as a character in the end. He was finally "a real boy", human, and not some wish fulfillment fantasy.

I'm not saying Beckett had to be disliked or whatnot, but yeah, I think she could have used a dash of humility and had something, ANYTHING shaking her perfection apart a bit.

Wendy, somehow I wish we lived closer, because it seems we love and watch the same shows. And also have the exact same thoughts about them.

When Beckett was shown backsliding, I think at the time I, and a few others, were like FINE! If you're going this particular ridiculous route, at least make her REALLY backslide. Like nearly loony bin backslide. Do it up. Don't namby pamby it and keep her Super Beckett.

But that's exactly what they did. This supposed backslide, one big enough for her to leave her husband to investigate, was barely a blip in her radar. And her husband, rather than treat it for the serious condition it was, just decided to be goofy and adorable instead and beg her to love him.

But yes, if they had Beckett on the outside being confident and knowing everything under the sun but inside feeling insecure, it would have played better. I think THAT is what I loved about the earlier season, so thanks, Wendy, for helping me put a finger on it.

I think in the earlier seasons even if she had knowledge, she still came off kind of like, "Oh, I know this" without it being like smirk, I know this, smirk. 

Maybe it's because even amidst Castle having a vast array of knowledge and being a bestselling author, he didn't come off like his knowledge was a big deal, and like I said, it seemed to be more a way to get other people with their own knowledge. Or if Castle made it a big deal, again, eye rolls all the way around.

So, if you take Beckett's random knowledge in a vacuum, it's not that noteworthy. But you take it all together, and it is.

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1 hour ago, SweetTooth said:

I'm not talking about the actual skateboarders. I'm talking about her interest in things nerds would love. The point I was making was that her knowledge involved most things men/boys would find incredibly hot for a woman to love. Like motorcycles and comic books and skateboarding.  BUT! She's also a girl! A really feminine girl! I mean, what's more of a male fantasy than a girl who digs sports, motorcycles, comics, and skateboarding but also has modeled/looks like a model? I just meant they were playing into the fantasy of the ideal woman. The chick all of the women want to hang with and guys want to sleep with. 

But that's what I was saying I disagreed with. I don't think they made her interested in things nerds would love, or even things most men would like. They made her interested in things Castle found attractive. Not all men have some fantasy of finding a girl who loves comic books and motorcycles.

1 hour ago, WendyCR72 said:

I'm not saying Beckett had to be disliked or whatnot, but yeah, I think she could have used a dash of humility and had something, ANYTHING shaking her perfection apart a bit.

Like I said, I was not disagreeing with that attitude at all, I was just separating out the comments about her knowledge of certain things. I understand the argument that combined with other things it became annoying and I was expressing that I don't think they go together. I'm not trying to sound argumentative, but I feel like people keep thinking I don't understand them and repeating things I already agreed with. It's like I'm talking Greek or something. Different opinions aren't the same as not understanding.

1 hour ago, SweetTooth said:

I never felt Castle was an expert in any of the areas he brought up that he researched. A lot of the time it seemed to me (like with the mob thing) he had connections to people who knew things and thus had a vast array of characters he could go to for information in the same way Holmes does.

And they just kind of tossed off his knowledge/rolled their eyes whenever he said he knew about something. LIke, whatever, writer, okay. 

So while I agree totally that both of them having random knowledge about subjects that just happened to tie into a case they were working on is a TV trope going back to the beginning of TV, I think it was more how it was presented that made Beckett's knowledge seem more strange than Castle's. 

I guess it's just mileage, because I actually thought Castle knowing people connected to everything in the universe was super strange and silly. It didn't effect my enjoyment of the show, but it was kind of OTT that he was the one to always know the piece of information that let them solve the case. It made the actual cops look like idiots.

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But yes, if they had Beckett on the outside being confident and knowing everything under the sun but inside feeling insecure, it would have played better. I think THAT is what I loved about the earlier season, so thanks, Wendy, for helping me put a finger on it.

I think in the earlier seasons even if she had knowledge, she still came off kind of like, "Oh, I know this" without it being like smirk, I know this, smirk.

She never seemed smirky to me, she just seemed like she was casually saying things she knew. Except for some points when she seemed to be openly flirting with Castle. And I feel like she was always insecure inside, it was just that she put on a face for the public and only let Castle see what was inside. But maybe I was just projecting early seasons Beckett.

Edited by KaveDweller. Reason: Quote issues.
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@WendyCR72, now I understand why people loved Castle: Offscreen so much! It's because it's so much better than Castle: Onscreen!

I laughed and enjoyed that short interview more than the last couple of seasons put together.

@KaveDweller, I totally hear what you're saying. That it's in the eye of the beholder. I guess the buffooning of Castle just got to me. The eye rolls everyone gave him, etc. I think that was supposed to be a counterbalance to, as you said, making the cops look like idiots, but really it just made no sense.

Here you are, a smart man with a lot of useful knowledge, but we're still going to treat you like the village idiot.

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26 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

TV Line uses Comic Con 2016 to wring its last (?) drops of Castle: Nathan Fillion discusses the show ending without a "proper" goodbye and what was planned for S9.

Somehow I doubt it'll be the last drops TVLine gets out of the show, although I desperately wish it was! 

Despite all the complaining in the comments, I actually thought it was a nice interview. He took the time to acknowledge the cast, mentioned some relief in having a bit of free time, and skillfully dodged Ausiello trying to get more clicks re: the plan for S9 (which I honestly think was maybe a series of pitched ideas about what the season could look like to entice the network, not the solid plan like TVLine is making it seem.) People seem to be angry that he can't come up with a favourite moment of the last eight years off the cuff, but, like... neither can I. 

Edited by chraume.
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Just now, chraume said:

People seem to be angry that he can't come up with a favourite moment of the last eight years off the cuff, but, like... neither can I. 

It wasn't off the cuff, though. As Ausellio said, he sent Nathan the question two days prior, and Nathan acknowledged receipt of it.

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Just now, SweetTooth said:

It wasn't off the cuff, though. As Ausellio said, he sent Nathan the question two days prior, and Nathan acknowledged receipt of it.

That was a joke, as I heard it. And Mitovich confirmed as much in the comments. 

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Just now, chraume said:

That was a joke, as I heard it. And Mitovich confirmed as much in the comments. 

OH! Sorry. My bad.

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3 minutes ago, SweetTooth said:

OH! Sorry. My bad.

Haha, no worries! But you're right, it definitely would've been a bad move if he had actually received it a few days prior. 

Edited by chraume.
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TV Line needs to get over it and find new click bait.

And yet, that story is their #3 most clicked story. I would be sad to lose that ad revenue, too.

As far as it being bittersweet to not have had to say goodbye, I get that. I think that's how I'd want it, if it were me. There was no time to get sad that it's ending and I wouldn't have to figure out how to split focus between my job ending, watching them dismantle things, reminiscing with people and still going out and playing the role where none of that matters and I have to pretend it doesn't exist.

I still think if their plan was a Beckett-less S9, especially after a "meaningful time jump", it's better they ended it. I will forever be sad that it's over, but I'm also still pretty sure I would have hated a bastardized, broken version of the show I used to love. They saved me from making the choice of following the show until the end and being dissatisfied.

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I doubt it will ever exist, but I would love to see Nathan and Alan do a live action Spectrum. From the first two issues (#0 on Free Comic Book Day) and  #1 , which introduces the AT character, the characters already have some depth and the background story is interesting.

Am I the only one who finds comic books hard to read? It's a whole different kind of literacy.

Back on topic-- Beckett's Mary Sueness was most annoying for me when she was supposed to be fluent in Russian after a semester in Ukraine.

Sorry, but even with immersion language training, That ain't gonna happen, especially when you start as an adult. Think of your immigrant friends-- you know that they are from away the moment they open their mouths.

And speaking English with an accent to a 'real' Russian would not convince him that you were Russian. Frankly he probably wouldn't even hear the accent.

But I never found any character having some knowledge of any given subject unusual, Beckett or Castle. Just being widely read and out in an experience-rich environment like NYC would make it not only possible but reasonable.

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57 minutes ago, femmefan1946 said:

Back on topic-- Beckett's Mary Sueness was most annoying for me when she was supposed to be fluent in Russian after a semester in Ukraine.

Wasn't it not even a whole semester, it was a summer? Pretty ridiculous. They should have said she went there because she had been studying Russian for a few years or something. It wouldn't have required changing anything else in the story. 

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And Ukrainian is not Russian! Ask any of my Ukranian relations (we seem to marry a lot of them, also Phillippinas.)

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Just now, femmefan1946 said:

And Ukrainian is not Russian! Ask any of my Ukranian relations (we seem to marry a lot of them, also Phillippinas.)

Maybe the writers don't know their geography (along with not knowing police procedure or continuity)?

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15 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

I think a lot of the backstory was meant to show she was really compatible with Castle. She wasn't just some cop he admired for her job, she had tastes in movies/books/hobbies  that matched his. And I think she was trying to impress him when she told him about her past, because even when she didn't want to admit it, she liked him following her around and wanted him to stay interested.

Or sometimes they just gave her or Castle a backstory that connected to their cases because the writers were lazy and liked to have themes that made their jobs easier.

I agree it was probably a combination of both but it had this unfortunate cumulative effect as I explained in my previous posts and towards the end it was like they were trying to punch a hole through the screen and grab me by the throat to remind me especially of her sheer hotness, badassery and awesomeness.

Her past seemed to get....messy to me filled with contrasting things that didn't really add up character wise but that I'm sure was down to pure lazy writing and they couldn't be bothered to tie up the timelines on anything much just chuck it in there and hope no one bothered trying to go back and take a look at it. 

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When you add to that the fact that over the course of the series, she began wearing clothes way out of her pay grade, always had perfect hair (ridiculously long tresses rarely put up) and makeup and chases suspects in 3-4 inch heels, it begins to not feel genuine.  For me, anyway.  

This gif of Beckett (S8?) striding out with her boys to a crime scene encapsulates everything that irritated me about how they morphed her from an attractive woman who importantly looked like a professional serious cop into someone who looks like her next stop is the dominatrix dungeon. She just needs a whip and she's your fantasy hot cop giving you a little "punishment" for kicks.  The flowing long tresses which are actually getting in her way (check), sky high glossy black boots (check), THIGH HOLSTER (super hot that's worth extra!) and most ridiculous of all a bullet proof vest that offers her literally zero protection in the stomach area it's riding so high up to show off those hips and supermodel strut. But hey she looks SEXY and HOT what's not to love!  The boys? They look like I would expect two cops to look, her I don't know what she is but that's no cop. 

I thought Brennan on Bones was a good example of how to do it right, she was attractive but they kept her look suitable for lab work. I'm sure people working in one day to day had their gripes but to someone like me nothing stuck out as glaringly OTT.

There was a time when I didn't mind the high heels because back in the early days they kept the rest of it real plus I realised they probably wanted Katic to be eye level with her co-star and Fillion's a tall guy.  But they had to start overdoing everything and if you keep pushing something in my face it highlights the sheer absurdity of it all and they shouldn't do that.  Having everyone she met tell her within five seconds how amazing she was when she's done nothing at that point to give this impression was also grating and stupid. 

On 23/07/2016 at 9:47 AM, SweetTooth said:

The Kate Beckett at the beginning of the series was a quiet, beautiful nerdgirl. The reader who idolized an author that in later years she wound up rolling her eyes at and mommying. The man who became a buffoon who tagged after her like a puppy. They cut Castle off at the knees at the exact time they built Kate to epic status, and it was so sad what that relationship became.

Well stated, I can never understand why they wanted to do that because it sucked the life (and realism) out of their relationship slowly but surely for me to the point I didn't understand why either of them found sustainability together.

Making a woman have to act like she's "mom" to her husband will kill any romance factor stone dead, that's the route they seemed to be heading for at times with these two.  

Hearing some fans calling him "Beckett's adorable doofus (or goofball) of a husband" is not a compliment especially for a guy like him, it's embarrassing when you think of the man he used to be.  

As one commentator pointed out it was critical that Beckett found him attractive and not annoying when he did any silly kind of stuff, if she acted bored/sarcastic or angry at him then that will transfer over to your audience.  Same went with the boys and their eye rolling and making fun of his theories towards the end it got (and even Beckett got in on the act sometimes) if they looked scornful and embarrassed by them that was lethal because if they're not taking him remotely seriously then why the hell should your audience? The writers seem to forget they look the lens of how the other characters are treating/reacting to that person so they need to be careful how they do it but of course they didn't care I guess they thought it was just funny having Nathan acting like a goofball with everyone else poking fun. 

12 hours ago, SweetTooth said:

When Beckett was shown backsliding, I think at the time I, and a few others, were like FINE! If you're going this particular ridiculous route, at least make her REALLY backslide. Like nearly loony bin backslide. Do it up. Don't namby pamby it and keep her Super Beckett.

But that's exactly what they did. This supposed backslide, one big enough for her to leave her husband to investigate, was barely a blip in her radar. And her husband, rather than treat it for the serious condition it was, just decided to be goofy and adorable instead and beg her to love him.

That's a good example where you have a supposedly major story arc that fails on every level because TPTB are not prepared to allow the characters to suffer any major repercussions for their actions. Instead it becomes a meaningless yet highly irritating story which kept getting thrust in my face but every appearance of it only served to remind the audience how inconsequential it was to everyone not just Beckett and Castle but to his family and friends - it was mostly treated like a joke and they made Castle look even more pathetic than ever. Beckett sailed on regardless after what should have been a major upheaval to her marriage (and possibly even an end to it) and much worse there was no sign that she wouldn't go and do exactly the same thing all over again if the situation presented itself. Despite all the supposedly "cute" moments they didn't have anything really substantial there for the long term the way they wrote them.

Yeah I know we got the three kids at the end in the "happily ever after" tacked on ending but felt like their future relationship was set that Beckett was free to do as she pretty much wanted with no genuinely painful come backs or lessons learnt and Castle would forgive her eventually because he luuuuurved her so much and that's the pattern they seemed happy to establish and for me as a viewer it sucked.  That's not the kind of relationship I wanted them to have, I'll have to resort to fanfic (where some of the writers appear far more attuned to the characters than Hawley and Winter were) for examples of a more healthy way of having these two go about things. 

Edited by verdana.
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I wish TV line would stop picking over the scab lol but of course they want the hits.

Alan was there as the trusty friend to help NF out with the patter and fill in the gaps.

Whatever did go down (and I'm super positive something did between Katic and Fillion) I wish them and the whole cast well, if we ever do find out it will be years from now when they're needing cash and someone writes a tell all book heh. 

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9 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

Maybe the writers don't know their geography (along with not knowing police procedure or continuity)?

It wouldn't be unusual at all to study Russian in Kiev in the 90s. Everyone in Ukraine speaks Russian, in fact a good chunk of Ukrainian citizens don't (or won't) speak Ukrainian. More so in the 90s. It would be very unusual and not exactly practical for a foreign student in Kiev in the 90s to learn Ukrainian while bypassing Russian which would have given means to communicate with way more people than Ukrainian would've given. But not having an accent after a measly summer in Kiev some 10-15 years ago? I presume she wasn't practicing everyday. If her incredible skill with languages was made a special plot point through the series I could've believed it, but on its own it does look like another mary-sueism.

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This gif of Beckett (S8?) striding out with her boys to a crime scene encapsulates everything that irritated me about how they morphed her from an attractive woman who importantly looked like a professional serious cop into someone who looks like her next stop is the dominatrix dungeon. She just needs a whip and she's your fantasy hot cop giving you a little "punishment" for kicks.  The flowing long tresses which are actually getting in her way (check), sky high glossy black boots (check), THIGH HOLSTER (super hot that's worth extra!) and most ridiculous of all a bullet proof vest that offers her literally zero protection in the stomach area it's riding so high up to show off those hips and supermodel strut. But hey she looks SEXY and HOT what's not to love! 

Thanks for the laugh, I forgot this scene in all its messy glory.

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@verdana OMG. That gif and your commentary are priceless things I will cherish forever. 

But thanks for reinforcing my therory that they turned her from cute, sexy nerdy cop into generic male fantasy dominatrix blowup Barbie. 

I know TV cops aren't about realism, but at least TRY to make it somewhere in the realm of realism.

14 hours ago, verdana said:

Beckett sailed on regardless after what should have been a major upheaval to her marriage (and possibly even an end to it) and much worse there was no sign that she wouldn't go and do exactly the same thing all over again if the situation presented itself.

This can be applied to pretty much any situation she caused but was eventually lauded for. Just put "job" in where marriage is.

Her record of being a lone wolf loose cannon alone would have been a major stumbling block.

It is ironic that in an effort to make her an equal and good enough to be with Castle, they made her so far superior to Castle in every way, it looked like she was doing him this huge favor by being with him.

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On 7/24/2016 at 5:58 AM, WendyCR72 said:

TV Line uses Comic Con 2016 to wring its last (?) drops of Castle: Nathan Fillion discusses the show ending without a "proper" goodbye and what was planned for S9.

Well, I can see that the rabid Nathan haters are well and alive.  Aw, they have such a symbiotic relationship with TV Line, feeding off each other in a vicious circle. ;)  When will they let it go?  Do people really get off on raging irrationally and ignorantly about the same sh*t over and over again?  Does it feed their own egos (and the haters' egos judging from their comments seem to be far more prominent than anyone else's from that interview)?  These people are so angry and fixated on their hate it's disturbing and unhealthy.  Skimming the dreadful comment section after watching that interview just confirms to me again that some Castle fans, i.e. the rabid Nathan haters, completely lack a sense of humour.  (Sorry, but LOL at people not getting that the 3 day thing was a joke.)  Which is ironic, to use it correctly as Castle himself would say :P, considering that the show was a show that lived on wit and humour at its best.  Anyone rational with a sense of humour watching that interview would have appreciated it for the relaxed, irreverent and entertaining bit that it was.  But haters are experts at reading offence into something when none exists; they've been doing that for years.  It's feelings over fact.  It's rage over reason.  It's about the need to confirm their own preconceived or desired narrative (worldview) regardless of fact or reason, fueled by a diet of rage, anon rumors and innuendo, clickbait, trash talk, and their own ego.  This is just over a TV show but you can see the same thing replicated in what's happening in politics right now, with far more severe consequences.

For anyone who needs a palate cleanser from all that, check out nerd HQ's panels from Comic Con this year.  Lots of fun and generosity on display as always. 

Nathan's panel was great fun and on a shallow note, he's looking quite fit these days.  His charity auctions were crazy as usual.  Someone bid a lot on some of his stuff and said that her husband would kill her.  Nathan did a Castle pose and quipped that he would solve that murder heh.  He auctioned off Castle scripts, Castle books, jacket made for Castle crew, WWRCD shirts, fan art with him and Stana and Morena ("ladies in his life" heh) amongst other miscellaneous cool crap. :P  Oh, a Darth Vader and a Batman onesie!  Who knew Nathan had a closet full of onesies heh?  Those parts were really funny.  And apparently he has his own lip balm made by Burt's Bees for him that he auctioned off as well.  The things you learn heh.  

They released some scenes from Con Man S2 at Comic Con (Jon Huertas is in it too), and whether that is your cup of tea or not, you've got to check out the very final scenes here of Nathan.  Warning: it's quite disturbing.  I cannot unsee that!  I can actually envisage him playing some kind of creepy serial killer now.  Cast him against type, that could be good.

Edited by madmaverick.
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Back to the show discussion, I loved that convo when Castle learned that Beckett read the New York Review of Books.  Not the NYT Book review.  That was the nerdy onion layer unpeeling that I could get behind and it felt like a relationship between equally smart individuals who gave as good as they got. It was cool even when we learned that Beckett read comic books.  I enjoyed the new discoveries they made about each other at that stage (which, sadly, was never replicated when they became a new couple).  But then, somewhere down the line it became too much and the onion layers being unpeeled became overkill and too over the top that it became a turn off rather than a turn on.  By trying too hard to hit me on the head with Beckett's awesomeness (as well as badassness), they made her less appealing.  It's like wanting to root for the underdog than the perfect teacher's pet all the time, if that's a valid analogy.  Especially when Castle was made to be more of the class clown laughed at by the teacher's pet a lot of the time.

Not sure how others feel, but Castle and Beckett after they got together was never quite as I imagined, and perhaps the difference between how I expected them to be and what we were presented with explains part of my dissatisfaction with that period of the show.  I'm not talking about story here, we've rehashed a lot of our complaints on that.  I'm referring to characterisation.  Maybe I've read too many fanfics where I've seen them characterised differently (better), or maybe I'm still too attached to the early incarnations of Castle and Beckett, but S5 Beckett... all so overtly happy and smiley always felt more like Stana to me than Beckett, if people understand what I mean.  Of course Beckett would be happy to finally be with Castle, but I'd always imagined her as someone more reserved even when in love.  Castle, I definitely imagined as being more overtly romantic, but that just didn't really materialise.  In fact, them being together as written by the writers felt deflated of a lot of the romance and sexual tension of seasons before they were together.  Yes, one can speculate about bts, but if it wasn't put down on the page to begin with, there was really nothing for the actors to build on.  When I read fanfics that craft the early stages of their romantic relationship so well, so much of what we got onscreen just felt like a letdown.

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They released some scenes from Con Man S2 at Comic Con (Jon Huertas is in it too), and whether that is your cup of tea or not, you've got to check out the very final scenes here of Nathan.  Warning: it's quite disturbing.  I cannot unsee that!  I can actually envisage him playing some kind of creepy serial killer now.  Cast him against type, that could be good.

On mobile so can't watch the clip, but didn't Nathan start as Caleb, the demon, on Buffy? Same kind of creepy role, or at least not the type of guy-next-door role he's associated with now.

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Now that Nathan has more time than before, maybe Criminal Minds might cast him as an unsub. It seems like Joss was the only one to give him chance to not be the guy next door as Caleb. Johnny was very guy next door and that was right before Firefly while the Caleb role was after Firefly got cancelled.

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To be honest, I'm sort of stunned that Nathan Fillion never guest starred on original recipe Law & Order since the first few years of that show coincided with his time on One Life To Live, which was one of the New York-based soaps. Many soap stars were on L&O. (And, years later, many of those same soap actors and/or Broadway-based actors would also appear on spinoffs Law & Order: Special Victims Unit and Law & Order: Criminal Intent once they were "born". As well as Law & Order: Trial By Jury for its one and done season!)

I could have seen him as a perp on that show with either Ben Stone or Jack McCoy grilling him in court!

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Watching Nathan answer the questions reminded me of all the times when actors' eyes roll back in their heads as they reread the non-disclosure agreements that have been tatooed to the inside of their eyelids, ha.  And of course they must answer questions without actually saying anything. And Nathan did so like a champ, since he still may be under non-disclosure, or else it's just a habit, while Alan had no NDA to worry about and could quip off the cuff. Of course, the anti-Nathan crowd fed on Alan's greater likelihood to answer questions about Castle. Congrats, Alan, for giving them something more to fuel the anti-fan passion.

I have no doubt that the TVLine crowd would have watched a Beckett-less Castle. 

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If you watch a few of Nathan and Alan's interviews together, that's the way they roll.  They riff off each off the cuff a lot.  And that interview was more of the same; I didn't feel it to be particularly different.  I imagine everyone's happy to talk about memories of the show, but no one's going to touch on anything controversial, not if they're smart.

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I have no doubt that the TVLine crowd would have watched a Beckett-less Castle. 

If only to rage every week in the comment section.  What else would give meaning to their lives? ;)

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On 7/25/2016 at 3:27 PM, madmaverick said:

Not sure how others feel, but Castle and Beckett after they got together was never quite as I imagined, and perhaps the difference between how I expected them to be and what we were presented with explains part of my dissatisfaction with that period of the show.  I'm not talking about story here, we've rehashed a lot of our complaints on that.  I'm referring to characterisation.  Maybe I've read too many fanfics where I've seen them characterised differently (better), or maybe I'm still too attached to the early incarnations of Castle and Beckett, but S5 Beckett... all so overtly happy and smiley always felt more like Stana to me than Beckett, if people understand what I mean.  Of course Beckett would be happy to finally be with Castle, but I'd always imagined her as someone more reserved even when in love.  Castle, I definitely imagined as being more overtly romantic, but that just didn't really materialise.  In fact, them being together as written by the writers felt deflated of a lot of the romance and sexual tension of seasons before they were together.  Yes, one can speculate about bts, but if it wasn't put down on the page to begin with, there was really nothing for the actors to build on.  When I read fanfics that craft the early stages of their romantic relationship so well, so much of what we got onscreen just felt like a letdown.

Yeah, it wasn't really what I pictured either. That's not to say I didn't like it, because I thought head-over-heels Beckett was adorable. But it was a surprise. I was expecting more of Castle making big gestures and being excited about being together. Beckett I thought would still have some moments of nervousness about being all in, or about Castle having so much more money then her, etc. Wouldn't that S5 Christmas episode have been better if Beckett didn't want to celebrate with Castle because she felt pressure about it, rather than having to go back to her mother drama. I thought the S8 episode where Castle restored Beckett's old motorcycle was a great example of something I thought we'd see in S5.

Like you said, there were so many fanfics where that was done very well, so it is weird that the writers never seemed to remember those parts of the characters. But to give them some credit, there's also a lot of fanfics that are so much worse than the show.

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But if people who are just fans of the show can characterize the characters better than the writers who get paid to write for the show, doesn't that mean there's some apathy going on there?
 

Like if the average person can see certain qualities in the characters, how does the show itself shortchange them? How many times can they sacrifice character for plot. Again, not knowing Vegas marriages were real, especially after she made such a big deal about one and done.

I mean, how many things did they have the characters say/do that we loved, only for them to either forget about it and directly contradict it or remember but not care, because FUN! Oh, I'm sure all of that character development means nothing to you. What you want is for Castle to do something wacky and Beckett to roll her eyes. That's way more important!

I mean, someone who isn't a professional writer isn't supposed to do better than paid writers, but a lot do, so what does that say?  

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12 minutes ago, SweetTooth said:

I mean, someone who isn't a professional writer isn't supposed to do better than paid writers, but a lot do, so what does that say?  

It says the writers are at best, lazy, and at worst, completely incompetent? 

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1 minute ago, KaveDweller said:

It says the writers are at best, lazy, and at worst, completely incompetent? 

I'd say you hit the nail on the head on all counts.

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Here I thought we'd seen the last of TV Line Castle clickbait, but it's clear they are determined to squeeze every last drop, and try to fan the flames of the comment section evermore.  How tedious.  Nothing noteworthy.  Just a recap of what will be on the DVD extras, info which can be found elsewhere.  Blah blah blah how nothing extra from the cliffhanger that would have led to S9 will be on the DVD.  Why would it be in the first place?  I don't think they shot anything more than that scene of them shot on the floor.  If they hadn't transitioned onto that happy families scene, I think we'd just had more of them writhing on the floor and that was the cliffhanger.  I thought that was self evident and I didn't need TV Line to confirm that for me. ;)  Got to love how Matt sells the article as having some 'answers', when there's actually zero noteworthy info.   I promise you, there's nothing interesting there.  I can save you a click. ;)

On 8/2/2016 at 8:18 AM, KaveDweller said:

Yeah, it wasn't really what I pictured either. That's not to say I didn't like it, because I thought head-over-heels Beckett was adorable. But it was a surprise. I was expecting more of Castle making big gestures and being excited about being together. Beckett I thought would still have some moments of nervousness about being all in, or about Castle having so much more money then her, etc. Wouldn't that S5 Christmas episode have been better if Beckett didn't want to celebrate with Castle because she felt pressure about it, rather than having to go back to her mother drama. I thought the S8 episode where Castle restored Beckett's old motorcycle was a great example of something I thought we'd see in S5.

Like you said, there were so many fanfics where that was done very well, so it is weird that the writers never seemed to remember those parts of the characters. But to give them some credit, there's also a lot of fanfics that are so much worse than the show.

Yeah, your take on the S5 Christmas episode would have been good.  Of course I also think they completely missed the ball in really examining the relationship stuff in that episode where Meredith came back.  Even that episode where they had that brief scene about how they didn't make sense on paper but made sense in real life was quite thin.  I just didn't feel they tapped into any place really deep and emotional befitting of their big change into a couple in those early days of being one.  I guess I'm not sure I ever saw Beckett as girly and giddy even when in love, not that I didn't want to see her happy, but it was a bit jarring for me.

Well, the writers are supposedly not allowed to read fanfic so maybe they didn't know how good some of the amateurs were doing it and were feeling quite self-satisfied with their own work. ;) 

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The only thing I appreciated about that article was Hawley's reference to a time jump to the happy family. I never subscribed to the "Castle and Beckett are dead and that tag was their dying hallucination/an alternate reality" theory, but it's out there. When the writers cancelled their post-finale interviews, I lost hope that that particular take would ever be addressed.  And now it has. So there's that. 

Edited by metaphor.
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Channing Dungey made her first TCA appearance as head of ABC, and there was a bit about Castle:

Can We Stop Talking About Castle Now?
Dungey may not have appeared annoyed by lingering questions about the cancelation of aging procedural Castle (and, to a lesser degree, the CMT-salvaged Nashville). But some critics were. She emphasized that the axing of Stana Katic, for the ninth season that never came to be, was a studio call. "We were always very upfront with the studio and producers that we might not bring the show back for season nine." she said. "They did what they felt they had to do in case they got the nod." And they did not.

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22 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

She's kind of throwing the studio under the bus there, isn't she?

Better them than her. ;)  

2 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Channing Dungey made her first TCA appearance as head of ABC, and there was a bit about Castle:

Can We Stop Talking About Castle Now?
Dungey may not have appeared annoyed by lingering questions about the cancelation of aging procedural Castle (and, to a lesser degree, the CMT-salvaged Nashville). But some critics were.

Some critics were annoyed by the questions being posed or by the cancellation?

Entertainment outlets must be celebrating another round of clicks from articles with non information. ;)

I never thought any additional information would be forthcoming anyway.  It's in everyone's interests to move on.  

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1 hour ago, madmaverick said:

Some critics were annoyed by the questions being posed or by the cancellation?

Entertainment outlets must be celebrating another round of clicks from articles with non information. ;)

I never thought any additional information would be forthcoming anyway.  It's in everyone's interests to move on.  

My guess is that they're annoyed that it's still being asked -- at this point, I'd assume everyone knows that nothing new is coming, and I actually think it's only one select site (we can alllllll guess) who's getting substantial clicks. In fact, if I remember correctly, wasn't it TVLine who asked specifically in Jan. about a "spinoff," thereby starting all of that drama? Wouldn't surprise me if it was their question again.

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2 hours ago, madmaverick said:

Better them than her. ;)  

Well, of course! But she also could have blamed it on Paul Lee. 

I do wonder if it's true. It makes sense that ABC was never sure it wanted to renew and didn't like the final pitch/numbers they got. It also makes sense that the producers were revamping things because they thought a change and lower costs was their only chance at renewal. But it seemed like lots of people involved seemed really shocked by it (even if they filmed the alternate ending). And most people wouldn't be shocked if they were told it was up in the air, but maybe they were just putting up a front.

But it's really nothing new. I still hope for a tell all book.

48 minutes ago, chraume said:

My guess is that they're annoyed that it's still being asked -- at this point, I'd assume everyone knows that nothing new is coming, and I actually think it's only one select site (we can alllllll guess) who's getting substantial clicks. In fact, if I remember correctly, wasn't it TVLine who asked specifically in Jan. about a "spinoff," thereby starting all of that drama? Wouldn't surprise me if it was their question again.

And TVLine also posted an article with the quote about it.....

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3 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

And TVLine also posted an article with the quote about it.....

I saw that. I mean, I get it -- it's (again) their most-commented article of the day, and that has to be translating into substantial clicks, but... come on, guys. That well is dry. Hang tight for a few years until people actually want to give up more info, otherwise... 

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Here's a funny story about letting things go. I was in line at HEB (grocery store) not long ago & they had all the rags displayed. One of them (I think it was the Enquirer but I'm not sure) had the headline "Why Betty White Hated Beatrice Arthur". That show's last season was damn near 25 years ago. So I would not hold my breath while waiting for them to stop milking every last drop of blood they can from Castle.

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